Calvinism and Abortion

[SPF]

John 6:45 says, “It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.”

In other words: Every man (the Jew) who has HEARD (listened to God through obeying God's commands) and has learned of the Father (loving others - Matthew 5:43-48) comes unto me (i.e. Jesus).

John 6:45 is clear in that this is not in reference to unbelieving Jews or unbelieving Gentiles. This is in reference to those Jews who had a relationship with God because they heard and learned of the Father. THESE are the ones who are drawn by the Father to come to Jesus. Not just anybody!

Ok, great, let's go with that. There's still a problem.

The problem is that the Father is still actively doing something in the heart's of these specific Jews you're referencing.

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

The problem is that Jesus seems to be saying that even these specific, practicing, law abiding, God acknowledging Jews had to be drawn by the Father in order to come to Christ.

It says it clear as day, "no one (nobody, no matter the state of their heart), can come to Me (Jesus), unless the Father who sent me draws him."

So again, my question is pretty simple and straight forward - Why is it that Jesus says that the Father has to draw them first? Why can't they choose to come to Christ before or without being drawn?

No man can come to me - This was spoken by Jesus to reprove their complaints - “Murmur not among yourselves.” They objected to his doctrine, or complained against it, because He claimed to be greater than Moses, and because they supposed him to be a mere man, and that what he said was impossible. Jesus does not deny that these things appeared difficult, and hence he said that if any man believed, it was proof that God had inclined him.

It was not to be expected that of themselves they would embrace the doctrine. If any man believed, it would be because he had been influenced by God. When we inquire what the reasons were why they did not believe, they appear to have been:

1. Their improper regard for Moses, as if no one could be superior to him.
2. Their unwillingness to believe that Jesus, whom they knew to be the reputed son of a carpenter, should be superior to Moses.
3. The difficulty was explained by Jesus in John 5:40 as consisting in the opposition of their will; and John 5:44 when He said that their love of honor prevented their believing on Him. The difficulty in the case was not, therefore, a want of natural faculties, or of power to do their duty, but erroneous opinions, pride, obstinacy, self-conceit, and a deep-felt contempt for Jesus.

The word cannot is often used to denote a strong and violent opposition of the will. Thus we say a man is so great a liar that he cannot speak the truth, or he is so profane that he cannot but swear. We mean by it that he is so wicked that while he has that disposition the other effects will follow, but we do not mean to say that he could not break off from the habit.

Personally, I tend to agree with a particular theologian who said, regarding free will, that we at all times, always act according to our greatest inclination. I have yet to find an exception to that idea.

It would seem that for the Jews in question, until the Father chose to "draw them", the greatest inclination of their will was not to come to Jesus.

 

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Ok, great, let's go with that. There's still a problem.

The problem is that the Father is still actively doing something in the heart's of these specific Jews you're referencing.

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

The problem is that Jesus seems to be saying that even these specific, practicing, law abiding, God acknowledging Jews had to be drawn by the Father in order to come to Christ.

It says it clear as day, "no one (nobody, no matter the state of their heart), can come to Me (Jesus), unless the Father who sent me draws him."

So again, my question is pretty simple and straight forward - Why is it that Jesus says that the Father has to draw them first? Why can't they choose to come to Christ before or without being drawn?

No man can come to me - This was spoken by Jesus to reprove their complaints - “Murmur not among yourselves.” They objected to his doctrine, or complained against it, because He claimed to be greater than Moses, and because they supposed him to be a mere man, and that what he said was impossible. Jesus does not deny that these things appeared difficult, and hence he said that if any man believed, it was proof that God had inclined him.

It was not to be expected that of themselves they would embrace the doctrine. If any man believed, it would be because he had been influenced by God. When we inquire what the reasons were why they did not believe, they appear to have been:

1. Their improper regard for Moses, as if no one could be superior to him.
2. Their unwillingness to believe that Jesus, whom they knew to be the reputed son of a carpenter, should be superior to Moses.
3. The difficulty was explained by Jesus in John 5:40 as consisting in the opposition of their will; and John 5:44 when He said that their love of honor prevented their believing on Him. The difficulty in the case was not, therefore, a want of natural faculties, or of power to do their duty, but erroneous opinions, pride, obstinacy, self-conceit, and a deep-felt contempt for Jesus.

The word cannot is often used to denote a strong and violent opposition of the will. Thus we say a man is so great a liar that he cannot speak the truth, or he is so profane that he cannot but swear. We mean by it that he is so wicked that while he has that disposition the other effects will follow, but we do not mean to say that he could not break off from the habit.

Personally, I tend to agree with a particular theologian who said, regarding free will, that we at all times, always act according to our greatest inclination. I have yet to find an exception to that idea.

It would seem that for the Jews in question, until the Father chose to "draw them", the greatest inclination of their will was not to come to Jesus.

Again, yoiu are ignoring the context (Which is John 6:45) that says that it those who heard and learned of the Father who are drawn to Jesus. Seeing we know that Jesus first came to reach Jews first before the cross, this would then mean that Jesus is referring to those Jews who HEARD and LEARNED of the Father. So John 6:44 is not in reference to Gentile unbelievers.

In addition, here is a heavy hitter verse that should knock your false thinking out of the ballpark. It's 2 Thessalonians 2:10. 2 Thessalonians 2:10 is clear that those who perish are perishing because they received not the love of the truth that they MIGHT be saved. So folks are not perishing because God did not zap them to believe. Folks are perishing because THEY received not the love of the truth that they MIGHT be saved. Read the verse for yourself.

Anyways, if after you read these two verses very slowly, and you still don't believe John 6:45 and 2 Thessalonians 2:10, that's on you.

I can only lead a horse to water, but I cannot force it to drink.

 

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Also, if GOD was the One who is responsible in choosing who is saved or unsaved (against a person's free will), then that would mean GOD wants most people to remain as sinners, and He wants only a few to be saved. But the Scriptures say that GOD is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). In other words, if Unconditional Election was true, then GOD would be responsible for men remaining as sinners because it would be His choice that He wanted them to stay that way. It was nothing in them that made this choice or determination. Hence, why the Election is UNconditional. So GOD is responsible for all the bad you see in the world because that was His choice to make things that way (If you believe in UNconditional Election).

 

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Romans 10:21 says, “But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.”

This was said to Israel. God is stretching forth His hands to a disobedient people in desiring them to repent and or change. For why else would God be reaching out to the Israelite people? It's His desire to see them saved. That's why? But it is ultimately up to them to decide. It's their choice. For if this was not the case, then Romans 10:21 would not exist in our Holy Bible.

 

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In Acts of the Apostles 17:30, God commands all men everywhere to repent. It is pointless to command men to repent if GOD is the One who zaps them (i.e. changes their will) to believe. Again, yet another contradiction in the imaginary Calvinistic Universe.

 

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Also, read the story of Jonah. Jonah told the Ninevites that in 40 days the city was going to be overthrown, but we learn in Jonah 3:6-10 that the Ninevites did two very important things.

#1. They cried out to GOD.
#2. They forsaked their evil ways.

When GOD seen that they forsaken their wickedness, that is when GOD decided to turn away from the Wrath that He originally planned for them. This makes no sense in the odd world of Calvinism.

 

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I mean, why even have a judgment if Calvinism is true?
God would be placing on trial and judging people that had no control over their own actions.
It would be like juding a pack of wolves because they ate some deer. It's nonsense.

 

[SPF]

Again, yoiu are ignoring the context (Which is John 6:45) that says that it those who heard and learned of the Father who are drawn to Jesus. Seeing we know that Jesus first came to reach Jews first before the cross, this would then mean that Jesus is referring to those Jews who HEARD and LEARNED of the Father. So John 6:44 is not in reference to Gentile unbelievers.

I don't know why you keep mentioning Gentiles, go back and read what I wrote, I completely accepted what you said. What you then need to deal with is the fact that it says that these OT Jews need to be first drawn by the Father, before they accept Christ.

I can only lead a horse to water, but I cannot force it to drink.

And I can only lead an ignorant, stubborn person, blinded by labels to the text, I cannot force them to actually read it. There's really no point in continuing the discussion when you clearly only spend 15 second proof-reading what I write, ignore all of it, and then pontificate on your view.

But the Scriptures say that GOD is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance

Yet we know that the majority do perish as only few make it through the narrow gate.

The problem is that the Father is still actively doing something in the heart's of these specific Jews you're referencing.

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

The problem is that Jesus seems to be saying that even these specific, practicing, law abiding, God acknowledging Jews had to be drawn by the Father in order to come to Christ.

It says it clear as day, "no one (nobody, no matter the state of their heart), can come to Me (Jesus), unless the Father who sent me draws him."

So again, my question is pretty simple and straight forward - Why is it that Jesus says that the Father has to draw them first? Why can't they choose to come to Christ before or without being drawn?

 

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I don't know why you keep mentioning Gentiles, go back and read what I wrote, I completely accepted what you said. What you then need to deal with is the fact that it says that these OT Jews need to be first drawn by the Father, before they accept Christ.

And I can only lead an ignorant, stubborn person, blinded by labels to the text, I cannot force them to actually read it. There's really no point in continuing the discussion when you clearly only spend 15 second proof-reading what I write, ignore all of it, and then pontificate on your view.

Yet we know that the majority do perish as only few make it through the narrow gate.

The problem is that the Father is still actively doing something in the heart's of these specific Jews you're referencing.

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

The problem is that Jesus seems to be saying that even these specific, practicing, law abiding, God acknowledging Jews had to be drawn by the Father in order to come to Christ.

It says it clear as day, "no one (nobody, no matter the state of their heart), can come to Me (Jesus), unless the Father who sent me draws him."

So again, my question is pretty simple and straight forward - Why is it that Jesus says that the Father has to draw them first? Why can't they choose to come to Christ before or without being drawn?

Before you said it does not matter if they are Jew or Gentile. It makes a big difference here because this verse does not apply to us Gentiles today. John 6:44 is in context to JEWS WHO HEARD AND LEARNED OF THE FATHER (See again John 6:45 which you oddly do not address or quote in your recent posts).

You want it to be the Father drawing the unbeliever with you isolating verse 44 from the context, but if you were to read and believe John 6:45, then we get the context of what John 6:44 is really saying.

“It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.” (John 6:45).​

Every man (i.e. Every believing Jew; For the context is the Jew who here and not unbelieving Gentiles) who has HEARD and has LEARNED of the Father comes unto Jesus.

The word “heard” and the word “learned” implies a relationship with God the Father (for the Jew). So this not a drawing that goes from unbelief to belief. This is a dedicated Jewish believer who has a relationship with God who is being drawn to Jesus. So the context is key here.

You are ignoring verse 45.
You are ignoring verse 45.
You are ignoring verse 45.

This is why you have not quoted verse 45 the last few posts.
You are not dealing with this verse because it refutes your false belief on John 6:44.

 

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@SPF

You are also not dealing with any of the other points in my other posts that destroys the idea of Unconditional Election, as well. Do you really believe GOD desires most people to sin as a part of His sovereign will and decree? That is what you must believe if you feel God chooses some to be saved and others to not be saved based on no conditions whatsoever (without man's free will involved).

 

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@SPF

Deal with John 6:45.
Deal with John 6:45.
Deal with John 6:45.
Deal with John 6:45.
Deal with John 6:45.

Does not words “HEARD” and “LEARNED of the Father” imply a relationship with God the Father?

 

[SPF]

Before you said it does not matter if they are Jew or Gentile. It makes a big difference here because this verse does not apply to us Gentiles today. John 6:44 is in context to JEWS WHO HEARD AND LEARNED OF THE FATHER (See again John 6:45 which you oddly do not address or quote in your recent posts).

This is just odd. You're the one who keeps mentioning gentiles, not me. I've fully accepted your interpretation of the passage and have been responding from the context that you have provided. I'm just really at a loss as to why you keep talking to me as if I haven't. It's weird. Do you have a reading comprehension problem?

Every man (i.e. Every believing Jew; For the context is the Jew who here and not unbelieving Gentiles) who has HEARD and has LEARNED of the Father comes unto Jesus.

Yes, I get it, and I accept that 100%. The problem is that according to verse 44, all of these Believing in the Father Jews must first be drawn by the Father to Christ before they will believe in Christ. That's the entire point and where my questions come from.

Why must these Believing Jews be first drawn by the Father before coming to Christ? Why is it not enough that on their own, as Believing Jews that they recognize the Truth of what Jesus is preaching? Why must they first be drawn by the Father? That's what you seem incapable of addressing.

The word “heard” and the word “learned” implies a relationship with God the Father (for the Jew).

Yes, a relationship with the Father, not Jesus. And again, that's the entire point. Verse 44 indicates that these Believing Jews must first be drawn by the Father before they will accept Christ. Why?

So this not a drawing that goes from unbelief to belief. This is a dedicated Jewish believer who has a relationship with God who is being drawn to Jesus. So the context is key here.

Absolutely. But why must the Father draw this Jew to Christ? What is it that is preventing them from coming to Christ on their own without the Father drawing them?

This is why you have not quoted verse 45 the last few posts.

I haven't quoted verse 45 because I'm fully accepting what you're saying about it. Hopefully you'll address my questions above.

 

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This is just odd. You're the one who keeps mentioning gentiles, not me. I've fully accepted your interpretation of the passage and have been responding from the context that you have provided. I'm just really at a loss as to why you keep talking to me as if I haven't. It's weird. Do you have a reading comprehension problem?

Yes, I get it, and I accept that 100%. The problem is that according to verse 44, all of these Believing in the Father Jews must first be drawn by the Father to Christ before they will believe in Christ. That's the entire point and where my questions come from.

Why must these Believing Jews be first drawn by the Father before coming to Christ? Why is it not enough that on their own, as Believing Jews that they recognize the Truth of what Jesus is preaching? Why must they first be drawn by the Father? That's what you seem incapable of addressing.

Yes, a relationship with the Father, not Jesus. And again, that's the entire point. Verse 44 indicates that these Believing Jews must first be drawn by the Father before they will accept Christ. Why?

Absolutely. But why must the Father draw this Jew to Christ? What is it that is preventing them from coming to Christ on their own without the Father drawing them?

I haven't quoted verse 45 because I'm fully accepting what you're saying about it. Hopefully you'll address my questions above.

First, before you said SEEKING Jews and not Jews who have HEARD and LEARNED of the Father. I believe this is why you did not quote verse 45. Before you did not accept that these were Jews who had a relationship with the Father.

Second, you take the word “draw” as some kind of override of a person's free will. It's not. These Jews are already in favor of GOD the Father because they HEARD and LEARNED OF THE FATHER. Their will is not being bent, but they are being drawn. I can be drawn or inclined to a certain thing or hobby, but that does not mean I cannot refuse what I feel drawn to. For example: Bob may be drawn to build model airplanes, but that does not mean he cannot refuse to do such a thing because of other responsibilities or priorities in his life. Jesus obviously believes we can deny things. For Jesus said for us to deny ourselves and pick up our cross and follow Him.

Three, you are ignoring the steps.

Step #1. - HEARD and LEARNED of the Father type Jews under the Old Covenant are...
Step #2. - Drawn or inclined (not dragged against their free will) to come to Jesus.

In other words, Jesus basically is saying no Jew who has not HEARD and who has not LEARNED of the Father can come to Jesus. They first need to HEAR and LEARN by the Father in order to come to Jesus. The Jews He was talking to were not able to come to Him because they did not HEAR and LEARN of the FATHER yet.

In addition, this is also not a dragging or a forced operation against their will because they were already hearing and learning of the Father. They were not being forced from being bad to being good.

Four, Jesus is one with the Father. So while they are distinct persons in the Godhead or Trinity, they are all technically one God. For do you remember when Jesus rebuked the disciples about how they desired to see the Father?

 

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This is just odd. You're the one who keeps mentioning gentiles, not me. I've fully accepted your interpretation of the passage and have been responding from the context that you have provided. I'm just really at a loss as to why you keep talking to me as if I haven't. It's weird. Do you have a reading comprehension problem?

Yes, I get it, and I accept that 100%. The problem is that according to verse 44, all of these Believing in the Father Jews must first be drawn by the Father to Christ before they will believe in Christ. That's the entire point and where my questions come from.

Why must these Believing Jews be first drawn by the Father before coming to Christ? Why is it not enough that on their own, as Believing Jews that they recognize the Truth of what Jesus is preaching? Why must they first be drawn by the Father? That's what you seem incapable of addressing.

Yes, a relationship with the Father, not Jesus. And again, that's the entire point. Verse 44 indicates that these Believing Jews must first be drawn by the Father before they will accept Christ. Why?

Absolutely. But why must the Father draw this Jew to Christ? What is it that is preventing them from coming to Christ on their own without the Father drawing them?

I haven't quoted verse 45 because I'm fully accepting what you're saying about it. Hopefully you'll address my questions above.

@SPF

If the word “draw” means “drag a person against their own free will” then we should expect the context to support that conclusion. But from the testimony of many verses in Scripture, we know GOD always gives us a free will choice in choosing Him. Joshua says, “And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” (Joshua 24:15).

 

[SPF]

Second, you take the word “draw” as some kind of override of a person's free will.

Nope, I sure don't, nor have I ever suggested such a thing.

These Jews are already in favor of GOD the Father because they HEARD and LEARNED OF THE FATHER.

Got it and agree.

Their will is not being bent, but they are being drawn. I can be drawn or inclined to a certain thing or hobby, but that does not mean I cannot refuse what I feel drawn to.

Got it. However, what you still haven't addressed is why these Believing Jews must first be drawn before they can accept Christ. Again, I bring this up in almost every response, and in every response you ignore the question.

The problem is that according to verse 44, all of these Believing in the Father Jews must first be drawn by the Father to Christ before they will believe in Christ. That's the entire point and where my questions come from.

Why must these Believing Jews be first drawn by the Father before coming to Christ? Why is it not enough that on their own, as Believing Jews that they recognize the Truth of what Jesus is preaching? Why must they first be drawn by the Father? That's what you seem incapable of addressing.

Step #1. - HEARD and LEARNED of the Father type Jews under the Old Covenant are...
Step #2. - Drawn or inclined (not dragged against their free will) to come to Jesus.

Got it. But again, the problem is that they must be drawn by the Father before coming to Christ. I can't seem to understand why this drawing by the Father must happen in order for them to come to Christ.

In other words, Jesus basically is saying no Jew who has not HEARD and who has not LEARNED of the Father can come to Jesus.

I hope that's only the case prior to the death/resurrection of Jesus on the cross!

They first need to HEAR and LEARN by the Father in order to come to Jesus.

Correct, and then after that, they need to be drawn by the Father also before coming to Jesus. And that's where all my questions come from, yet you still seem to ignore them or just talk about other stuff.

The Jews He was talking to were not able to come to Him because they did not HEAR and LEARN of the FATHER yet.

Cool, my questions stem from the other Jews that the Father was drawing.

In addition, this is also not a dragging or a forced operation against their will because they were already hearing and learning of the Father.

And again, I've never used the term "dragging", only you have. You can stop any time now since I don't think there is any sort of dragging going on. It's not strengthening anything you say.

 

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This is just odd. You're the one who keeps mentioning gentiles, not me. I've fully accepted your interpretation of the passage and have been responding from the context that you have provided. I'm just really at a loss as to why you keep talking to me as if I haven't. It's weird. Do you have a reading comprehension problem?

Yes, I get it, and I accept that 100%. The problem is that according to verse 44, all of these Believing in the Father Jews must first be drawn by the Father to Christ before they will believe in Christ. That's the entire point and where my questions come from.

Why must these Believing Jews be first drawn by the Father before coming to Christ? Why is it not enough that on their own, as Believing Jews that they recognize the Truth of what Jesus is preaching? Why must they first be drawn by the Father? That's what you seem incapable of addressing.

Yes, a relationship with the Father, not Jesus. And again, that's the entire point. Verse 44 indicates that these Believing Jews must first be drawn by the Father before they will accept Christ. Why?

Absolutely. But why must the Father draw this Jew to Christ? What is it that is preventing them from coming to Christ on their own without the Father drawing them?

I haven't quoted verse 45 because I'm fully accepting what you're saying about it. Hopefully you'll address my questions above.

Things are also different, too. We are not Jews being drawn to the Father. When Christ was lifted up, Christ draws all men unto Himself (John 12:32). This suggests a change in how things are done. The Jews who knows God the Father is not drawn to Jesus now. Jesus now draws all men unto Himself since He has been lifted up. Do you believe Jesus drags and or forces all men against their free will unto Himself? I get no indication of this in Scripture beyond taking one word out of context to mean it to what you want it to mean. I don't see any time in Scripture of a person refusing Jesus, and then He waves His hand and they become a mindless slave to Him. I don't see that in Scripture.

 

[SPF]

@SPF

If the word “draw” means “drag a person against their own free will” then we should expect the context to support that conclusion. But from the testimony of many verses in Scripture, we know GOD always gives us a free will choice in choosing Him. Joshua says, “And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” (Joshua 24:15).

Again, you're the only one talking about dragging. You can cease with the straw-man argumentation.

 

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John 12:32

it certainly does not say in this passage that people cannot refuse the draw of Christ.

Other verses suggest that a person can refuse Christ.

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me.” (Matthew 23:37) (NLT).

“But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.” (Romans 10:21).

“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.” (2 Thessalonians 2:10).

 

[SPF]

Other verses suggest that a person can refuse Christ.

They sure do! However, we're still talking about this. It's amazing how quickly you want to run away from this section of Scripture and talk about something else.

Feel free to reply to my Post #475

 

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Again, you're the only one talking about dragging. You can cease with the straw-man argumentation.

It's no strawman. First, in post #457 you deny that the Jews cannot come to Christ out of their own free will.

You said, I quote:

“Yet, despite all that, these God following Jews still need the Father to draw them FIRST, before they can come to Christ. Why? Why can’t they come to Christ out of their own free will? That, is what I find interesting.” ~ SPF.
​

You are also appear to support Calvinistic interpretation on John 6:44 by your saying that quoting teachers are great Theologians.

Post #377 the following,

“You do realize that the greatest Christian theologians of our history all held to a strong view of God's providence. This would include Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, Calvin, Edwards. And more recently Sproul, Piper, and Geisler.” ~ SPF.

I recognize the names as Calvin, Sproul, and Piper. These names should not be recognized as being great theologians because they teach Calvinism or Unconditonal Election. So your quoting them as great means you appear to side with the view that John 6:44 does not include free will in any way by man. But John 6:45 says that these Jews heard and learned of the Father. That was the free will that they exercised in order to be drawn by the Father. You take drawn as an elimination of free will but yet you say at other times that this is not the case. You are contradicting yourself. Choose a side. You either believe John 6:44 in the Calvnist's interpretation or you agree that some level of free will is involved in order to be drawn by the Father so as to come to Christ.

In another Calvinism thread you also appear to disagree with another poster.

Children salvation, shatters Calvinism

And you also appear to be in defense of Calvinism in this other thread here:

Calvinism rejected by all church fathers till 350 A.D.

Calvinists believe that a person is being dragged in John 6:44. They don't believe man has a free will in regards to choosing God. You say you don't believe in Calvinism, but at other times, it seems like you do agree with it. Pick a side.