The Rapture theory is true?

[Spiritual Jew]

Do you refer to being caught up to meet the Lord in the air as "the rapture"? Of course I do: the church world does, for the most part. If it was good enough for most of the translators, I am OK with that title.

Should I tell you that you shouldn't use that term since the Bible doesn't This is just more of your myths. I don't buy it. Anyone reading and understanding the Latin New Testament would find that word - or the root word for "rapture." "Raptured" is also used in the AMP version.

All I am asking is you show where the BIBLE uses "resurrection" in the same way you WANT to use it. Don't point to Rev, 20.

You would have some basis for this if any English translators used "resurrection" for something spiritual. They did not.

I already did. Paul said that God RAISED US UP from being dead in sins to being alive with Christ in heavenly places. Explain to me how God RAISING US UP from being dead in sins to alive in Christ is not a resurrection. What else would you call it?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Do you refer to being caught up to meet the Lord in the air as "the rapture"? Of course I do: the church world does, for the most part. If it was good enough for most of the translators, I am OK with that title.

Should I tell you that you shouldn't use that term since the Bible doesn't This is just more of your myths. I don't buy it. Anyone reading and understanding the Latin New Testament would find that word - or the root word for "rapture." "Raptured" is also used in the AMP version.

I don't buy your conclusion that being RAISED UP from being spiritually dead in Christ to spiritually alive in Christ is not a resurrection, either.

I'm sure you wouldn't try to say the words "raise up" can't refer to a resurrection just because they are different words than "resurrection".

John 6:40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

Does the phrase "raise them up" here refer to a resurrection? Sure, it does. Without using the word "resurrection" even. Imagine that. So, why would a passage referring to us being raised up spiritually from being dead in sins to alive in Christ not also refer to a resurrection?

All I am asking is you show where the BIBLE uses "resurrection" in the same way you WANT to use it. Don't point to Rev, 20.

You would have some basis for this if any English translators used "resurrection" for something spiritual. They did not.

They used the words "RAISED US UP". Why is that not enough? What is the difference between being RAISED UP from death to life and being RESURRECTED from death to life?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

It is a theory; but it does not agree with Paul who is the only writer of the NT that received a revelation of the rapture.

I disagree.

I'm pretty sure Matthew and Mark are among the writers of the NT.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The rapture refers to Christ's people being gathered to Him when He comes. Is that not exactly what is described in the passages above? Sure, it is. There is no basis whatsoever for thinking that the passages above speak of anything different than 1 Thess 4:13-17 and 2 Thess 2:1-3.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Paul also says we leave this body here on earth and get a new body at death.

Where does Paul say that? Please be specific.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Many people read of the elect being gathered in Matthew 24 and for some reason imagine it is Paul's rapture. It is not, and will happen over 7 years after Paul's rapture.

LOL. For some reason? The reason couldn't be because Paul spoke of the elect being gathered to Christ at His coming as well, could it? Is that the "some reason" you're looking for?

How do you interpret this passage:

2 Thess 2:1
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

Do you think this passage is somehow speaking of a different gathering to Christ than 1 Thess 4:13-17?

WHY would Paul mention wrath in association with the rapture UNLESS wrath was to follow the rapture? If people really understood Paul, two groups of people get two different results at one moment in time: those in Christ get raptured and get to "live together with Him," while at the same time, those left behind get "sudden destruction."

Ever wonder what the "sudden destruction" was or will be? It is going to be the worldwide earthquake caused when God raises the dead in Christ. It is going to be a worldwide earthquake. You find that earthquake at the 6th seal, just before wrath - exactly what Paul tells us. The rapture will be the trigger for the Day of the Lord: the age of grace ends - and the next moment it is the Day of the Lord - no time between.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

So, you interpret this to be speaking of a literal great earthquake happening at that point. So, to be consistent, I assume you see this as speaking of literal stars falling to the earth as well? And heaven literally departing as a scroll? Do you know that if literal stars fell to the earth, the earth would be completely annihilated with no chance of survivors? I think it's clearly not speaking of stars literally falling to the earth or literally every mountain and island being moved out of their places, but it does appear that John was intending to symbolically portray the destruction as being of the entire earth and heaven as well.

Whereas Peter described it in a literal way:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

Like Paul, Peter said destruction will be coming to the earth on the day Christ comes. Paul said the destruction will be to the point where "they will not escape". We can see from Peter's description of the destruction why Paul would have said that. Because the entire earth will be burned up. No one can escape that (other than glorified believers who are caught up to meet the Lord in the air).

How do you interpret this verse:

Rev 8:1 When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.

Why do you suppose that there would be silence in heaven at the seventh seal? Couldn't it be because Jesus and His angels will have left heaven at that point to gather His people to Himself and to take vengeance on unbelievers by delivering the wrath that the sixth seal said the time had come to occur? I believe so.

 

[iamlamad]

You would have some basis for this if any English translators used "resurrection" for something spiritual. They did not.

Was there ever a time in your life when you were spiritually dead?
.

I was born spiritually dead, and remained so up to around 7 years old.

Just for the record: "spiritually dead" does not mean "horizontal and not moving," as of a dead body; it only means separated from God. Therefore to use the word "resurrection" for the born again experience is using it in error.

 

[Gifts From Above]

OK, so us a scripture to prove what you say. I believe Christ's NEXT coming will be Paul's rapture coming. If you study 1 Thes. 5, Paul gives TIMING information. His gathering will be just before wrath. No confusion, but in a way you are right, it WILL BE the "last day" of the church age or the dispensation of Grace given to Paul for the Gentiles. I agree, we must look at ALL end time passages. Many people read of the elect being gathered in Matthew 24 and for some reason imagine it is Paul's rapture. It is not, and will happen over 7 years after Paul's rapture.

Notice the 6th seal: the DAY of His wrath has come. Then we SEE His wrath in each of the trumpet judgments. Judgment begins with the trumpet judgments. And that, my friend, is LONG before His coming to Armageddon as shown in chapter 19. Then there is that large group, too large to number: the raptured church seen in heaven before any part of the 70th week.

Question: WHY would Paul mention "the Day of the Lord" just three verses after his classic rapture verse - UNLESS the Day of the Lord was to quickly follow the rapture?

WHY would Paul mention wrath in association with the rapture UNLESS wrath was to follow the rapture? If people really understood Paul, two groups of people get two different results at one moment in time: those in Christ get raptured and get to "live together with Him," while at the same time, those left behind get "sudden destruction."

Ever wonder what the "sudden destruction" was or will be? It is going to be the worldwide earthquake caused when God raises the dead in Christ. It is going to be a worldwide earthquake. You find that earthquake at the 6th seal, just before wrath - exactly what Paul tells us. The rapture will be the trigger for the Day of the Lord: the age of grace ends - and the next moment it is the Day of the Lord - no time between.

You are thoroughly confused. Jesus returns only once and at the end of the age.

 

[iamlamad]

LOL. For some reason? The reason couldn't be because Paul spoke of the elect being gathered to Christ at His coming as well, could it? Is that the "some reason" you're looking for?

How do you interpret this passage:

2 Thess 2:1
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

Do you think this passage is somehow speaking of a different gathering to Christ than 1 Thess 4:13-17?

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

So, you interpret this to be speaking of a literal great earthquake happening at that point. So, to be consistent, I assume you see this as speaking of literal stars falling to the earth as well? And heaven literally departing as a scroll? Do you know that if literal stars fell to the earth, the earth would be completely annihilated with no chance of survivors? I think it's clearly not speaking of stars literally falling to the earth or literally every mountain and island being moved out of their places, but it does appear that John was intending to symbolically portray the destruction as being of the entire earth and heaven as well.

Whereas Peter described it in a literal way:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

Like Paul, Peter said destruction will be coming to the earth on the day Christ comes. Paul said the destruction will be to the point where "they will not escape". We can see from Peter's description of the destruction why Paul would have said that. Because the entire earth will be burned up. No one can escape that (other than glorified believers who are caught up to meet the Lord in the air).

How do you interpret this verse:

Rev 8:1 When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.

Why do you suppose that there would be silence in heaven at the seventh seal? Couldn't it be because Jesus and His angels will have left heaven at that point to gather His people to Himself and to take vengeance on unbelievers by delivering the wrath that the sixth seal said the time had come to occur? I believe so.

for some reason people assume the Matthew 24 gathering is Paul's rapture.

For some reason? The reason couldn't be because Paul spoke of the elect being gathered to Christ at His coming as well, could it? Is that the "some reason" you're looking for?
Sorry, but Paul spoke of those "in Christ" being caught up. Just because two different verses use the same word, or seem to speak of the same event, does not make them the same event. A good bible student would examine each passage in every respect available, such as timing, and to whom each passage was directed or related to purpose.

For example, one passage may be speaking to one group for a gathering for the purpose of removing them from earth while God pours out His wrath. On the other hand, another passage may be God gathering people and bringing them all back to Israel as He promised.

Consider the rapture: it gathers from the earth: first under the earth and then ON the earth. It is stated to come before God's wrath is poured out. It purpose is to remove the Bride before wrath comes. In John's Revelation timeline, that would be just before the DAY of His wrath begins. When we compare that with when the "trib" or 70th week comes, the entire week comes with wrath - so Paul's rapture comes just before the Day of His wrath. It is no mistake then that John SAW the raptured church in the throne room shortly after that.

Consider this gathering of the elect in Matthew 24. Searching "elect" won't help, because the bible calls God's people the elect, whether Jews or members of the church. This gathering comes "after the tribulation of those days." That alone proves it cannot be Paul's rapture. John saw the raptured church in heaven LONG before the days of GT are over with. So we find the first proof these are different gatherings in the TIMING.

Next, this gathering in Matthew 24 gathers from "one end of heaven to the other." This does not fit Paul's gathering that will gather from the earth. Now someone will surely say that "heaven" does not necessarily mean where God lives. Let's look at the KJV usage:
heaven (268x), air (10x), sky (5x)

"Heaven" as in the Kingdom of heaven (many times) or as our reward in heaven, used 268 times, compared with 10 times translated as "air." I think the normal human being from the US, if he or she was writing of Paul's rapture, would not use the word "heaven." They would probably say "from all around the earth" or "all around this planet." It seems that the writer had something different in mind than "earth." Then the phrase before that, "four winds:" Today we would say from the North, South, East and West" or "from all points on the compass." In Context, this would point to all directed in heaven.

Has God promised to bring all the Jews and Hebrews back to the promised land?

Eze. 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

Deu. 30:4
30 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath driven thee,
2 And shalt return unto the Lord thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3 That then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee.
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

The gathering in Matthew 24 fits these two passages. It does not fit Paul's rapture.

2 Thes. 2: Do you think this passage is somehow speaking of a different gathering to Christ than 1 Thess 4:13-17?
It is the same gathering, but His second letter is a little more difficult. Without a doubt, Paul is consistent and His passage on the gathering in his second letter agrees with His first letter: Once someone sees the great departing of the church (the apostasia) and then sees the man of sin revealed, all will KNOW that the Day of the Lord has started and they are now IN IT.

So, you interpret this to be speaking of a literal great earthquake happening at that point. So, to be consistent, I assume you see this as speaking of literal stars falling to the earth as well? You should know me better than that by now. If a REAL star fell to earth, we would be no more. It is probably a meteor shower John saw.

And heaven literally departing as a scroll? I doubt if anyone knows the meaning of this phrase.
Since life goes on, it is not as disastrous as it sounds.

or literally every mountain and island being moved out of their places, Did you not know that every mountain and island DID move out of their places with that great earthquake and tsunami off the coast of Japan? The entire planet moved on its axis by several inches. I see no reason why this cannot be taken as literal. It will be a worldwide earthquake caused when God raises those in Christ around the planet.

Like Paul, Peter said destruction will be coming to the earth on the day Christ comes. Sorry, but trying to make the fire that cleanses the earth into Paul's sudden destruction won't work either. It is back to TIMING. You really need to pay more attention to timing.

 

[iamlamad]

You are thoroughly confused. Jesus returns only once and at the end of the age.

1 Thes. 4 and Rev. 19: TWO comings. It is written. You cannot UNDO what is written, no matter how hard you try. You are simply mistaken.

 

[iamlamad]

I disagree.

I'm pretty sure Matthew and Mark are among the writers of the NT.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The rapture refers to Christ's people being gathered to Him when He comes. Is that not exactly what is described in the passages above? Sure, it is. There is no basis whatsoever for thinking that the passages above speak of anything different than 1 Thess 4:13-17 and 2 Thess 2:1-3.

It is a theory; but it does not agree with Paul who is the only writer of the NT that received a revelation of the rapture.

I'm pretty sure Matthew and Mark are among the writers of the NT.
True, but they did not receive a revelation on the rapture of the church.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days
Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation,

This is as far as one has to read to KNOW these verses cannot possibly refer to Paul's rapture, which will come BEFORE "the tribulation." These passages must therefore refer to ANOTHER "gathering."

Yes, OF COURSE there is basis - but people with preconceptions will probably ignore the basis.

The rapture refers to Christ's people being gathered to Him when He comes. The question we must ask is WHICH COMING and WHEN. There will be a 1st Thes. 4 coming just before wrath, and there will be a coming shown in Rev. 19 AFTER wrath. One CANNOT ignore timing and hope to be correct.

 

[keras]

So, you interpret this to be speaking of a literal great earthquake happening at that point. So, to be consistent, I assume you see this as speaking of literal stars falling to the earth as well? And heaven literally departing as a scroll? Do you know that if literal stars fell to the earth, the earth would be completely annihilated with no chance of survivors? I think it's clearly not speaking of stars literally falling to the earth or literally every mountain and island being moved out of their places, but it does appear that John was intending to symbolically portray the destruction as being of the entire earth and heaven as well.

Not correct. There is a very good and scripturally proven; literal explanation for the disasters of the Sixth Seal.
Isaiah 39:26a tells us exactly what the Lord will use on His Day of fiery wrath. Malachi 4:1, Psalms 50:1-4, 2 Peter 3:7
This forthcoming blast from the sun, will change our civilization and set the scene for all that must happen before Jesus Returns.
Nowhere does the Bible say the Church will be taken off the earth. Those who have proved their faith by standing firm thru it all, will be gathered to Jesus, at His return. Matthew 24:30-31

 

[Gifts From Above]

1 Thes. 4 and Rev. 19: TWO comings. It is written. You cannot UNDO what is written, no matter how hard you try. You are simply mistaken.

No Christ only returns once. 2000 years of church history dictates such. To think otherwise is absurd.

 

[iamlamad]

They used the words "RAISED US UP". Why is that not enough? What is the difference between being RAISED UP from death to life and being RESURRECTED from death to life?

Just for the record: "spiritually dead" does not mean "horizontal and not moving," as of a dead body; it only means separated from God. Therefore to use the word "resurrection" for the born again experience is using it in error. A REAL resurrection takes a horizontal body and stands it up - Vertical!

Being born again does not even come close to this. It is a different subject entirely.

 

[iamlamad]

No Christ only returns once. 2000 years of church history dictates such. To think otherwise is absurd.

You can be absurd and ignore scriptures of you choose. I won't. The coming in 1 Thes. 4 is a DIFFERENT coming than the coming in REv. 19 and these two comings are separated by TIME!
(All the events from the first trumpet judgment to the final vial - everything from Rev. 8 to Rev. 18 is BETWEEN the 1 Thes. 4 coming and the Rev. 19 coming.

 

[Gifts From Above]

You can be absurd and ignore scriptures of you choose. I won't. The coming in 1 Thes. 4 is a DIFFERENT coming than the coming in REv. 19 and these two comings are separated by TIME!
(All the events from the first trumpet judgment to the final vial - everything from Rev. 8 to Rev. 18 is BETWEEN the 1 Thes. 4 coming and the Rev. 19 coming.

poppycock

 

[iamlamad]

poppycock

You can chose to be wrong. Many do chose that way. However, I have a question: believing as you do, are you EXPECTING Jesus to come any moment?

If not, when He does come, it will be ONLY for those expecting Him: read the last verse of Hebrews 9.

 

[iamlamad]

No Christ only returns once. 2000 years of church history dictates such. To think otherwise is absurd.

What does 2000 years of church history has to do with the timing of His coming?
Are you a JEW and so expecting your age to end with the 7 years of Jacob's trouble?

I am NOT a Jew, don't have a Jewish mother and am a part of the Gentile church of today. I know we are in the dispensation given to Paul for the Gentiles. I know OUR age will end and "time" will revert back to Jewish time. If you are a Gentile as I am, then these verses are written to YOU:

1 Corinthians 9:17
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Ephesians 3:2
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
(The age of GRACE in which we abide.)
Colossians 1:25
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

Many people try to mingle this dispensation for the Gentiles with Jewish time. They don't mix.

 

[Gifts From Above]

What does 2000 years of church history has to do with the timing of His coming?
Are you a JEW and so expecting your age to end with the 7 years of Jacob's trouble?

I am NOT a Jew, don't have a Jewish mother and am a part of the Gentile church of today. I know we are in the dispensation given to Paul for the Gentiles. I know OUR age will end and "time" will revert back to Jewish time. If you are a Gentile as I am, then these verses are written to YOU:

1 Corinthians 9:17
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Ephesians 3:2
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
(The age of GRACE in which we abide.)
Colossians 1:25
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

Many people try to mingle this dispensation for the Gentiles with Jewish time. They don't mix.

Actually I am a Messianic Jew.

I believe that Christ returns once at the end of the age.

Yes I do believe that a period of tribulation will precede his coming.

 

[BABerean2]

I was born spiritually dead, and remained so up to around 7 years old.

Just for the record: "spiritually dead" does not mean "horizontal and not moving," as of a dead body; it only means separated from God. Therefore to use the word "resurrection" for the born again experience is using it in error.

If you asked an unbiased witness about a man being "passed from death to life", what do you think he might call it?


Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Sorry, but Paul spoke of those "in Christ" being caught up. Just because two different verses use the same word, or seem to speak of the same event, does not make them the same event. A good bible student would examine each passage in every respect available, such as timing, and to whom each passage was directed or related to purpose.

Do you think I haven't done that? Of course I have. And yet we still disagree. Stop being arrogant and acting as if you are the one who has studied all this in depth while I have not. You should know that isn't the case. We both have studied it in depth and yet we still disagree.

For example, one passage may be speaking to one group for a gathering for the purpose of removing them from earth while God pours out His wrath. On the other hand, another passage may be God gathering people and bringing them all back to Israel as He promised.

Consider the rapture: it gathers from the earth: first under the earth and then ON the earth. It is stated to come before God's wrath is poured out. It purpose is to remove the Bride before wrath comes. In John's Revelation timeline, that would be just before the DAY of His wrath begins. When we compare that with when the "trib" or 70th week comes, the entire week comes with wrath - so Paul's rapture comes just before the Day of His wrath. It is no mistake then that John SAW the raptured church in the throne room shortly after that.

Consider this gathering of the elect in Matthew 24. Searching "elect" won't help, because the bible calls God's people the elect, whether Jews or members of the church. This gathering comes "after the tribulation of those days." That alone proves it cannot be Paul's rapture. John saw the raptured church in heaven LONG before the days of GT are over with. So we find the first proof these are different gatherings in the TIMING.

Next, this gathering in Matthew 24 gathers from "one end of heaven to the other." This does not fit Paul's gathering that will gather from the earth. Now someone will surely say that "heaven" does not necessarily mean where God lives. Let's look at the KJV usage:
heaven (268x), air (10x), sky (5x)

"Heaven" as in the Kingdom of heaven (many times) or as our reward in heaven, used 268 times, compared with 10 times translated as "air." I think the normal human being from the US, if he or she was writing of Paul's rapture, would not use the word "heaven." They would probably say "from all around the earth" or "all around this planet." It seems that the writer had something different in mind than "earth." Then the phrase before that, "four winds:" Today we would say from the North, South, East and West" or "from all points on the compass." In Context, this would point to all directed in heaven.

It seems that you have forgotten that Mark 13 is also a record of the Olivet Discourse.

Mark 13:24 “But in those days, following that distress, “‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

This shows the elect being gathered both from heaven and the earth. Matthew, for whatever reason, didn't include the "from the ends of the earth" part, but Mark obviously did. We should look at all 3 Olivet Discourse accounts (Matt 24-25, Mark 13, Luke 21) to get the full picture of what Jesus said.

What Jesus said in Mark 13:24-27 lines up perfectly with 1 Thess 4:13-17 which says Jesus will be coming from heaven with those who have fallen asleep/died (their souls will unite with their resurrected bodies) and for those who are alive and remain on the earth.

Has God promised to bring all the Jews and Hebrews back to the promised land?

Eze. 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

Deu. 30:4
30 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath driven thee,
2 And shalt return unto the Lord thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3 That then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee.
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

Here is another case of you coming to a conclusion without all of the necessary information. God already did this long ago, as Joshua recorded here:

Joshua 21:43 So the Lord gave Israel all the land he had sworn to give their ancestors, and they took possession of it and settled there. 44 The Lord gave them rest on every side, just as he had sworn to their ancestors. Not one of their enemies withstood them; the Lord gave all their enemies into their hands. 45 Not one of all the Lord’s good promises to Israel failed; every one was fulfilled.

2 Thes. 2: Do you think this passage is somehow speaking of a different gathering to Christ than 1 Thess 4:13-17?
It is the same gathering, but His second letter is a little more difficult. Without a doubt, Paul is consistent and His passage on the gathering in his second letter agrees with His first letter: Once someone sees the great departing of the church (the apostasia) and then sees the man of sin revealed, all will KNOW that the Day of the Lord has started and they are now IN IT.

Sorry, but the apostasia is absolutely not referring to the rapture. I am just amazed (and saddened) that anyone would try to say that.

You are using a definition for the word apostasia that doesn't exist. Strong's Greek concordance defines the word as "a falling away, defection, apostasy". When people commit apostasy it has to do with falling away from the faith and rebelling against God. This is common knowledge.

Also, the context of the entire passage supports that it would mean a falling away from the faith because later in the chapter Paul says this:

2 Thess 2:9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

This describes the result of the falling away from the faith. Paul earlier said that the mystery of iniquity was already at work back then but it was restrained. The falling away occurs as a result of iniquity no longer being restrained. A time will come, like in the days of Noah, when God will no longer contend with man's wickedness and will give them over to it.

The Greek word apostasia is used in one other verse in scripture.

Acts 21:20 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away (Greek: apostasia) from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs.

Can you see how it's used here to refer to Paul being accused of leading a rebellion against the teachings of Moses? Like 2 Thess 2 it's used in the sense of departing from the truth. You using that word to described the rapture does not fit the meaning of the word at all.

So, you interpret this to be speaking of a literal great earthquake happening at that point. So, to be consistent, I assume you see this as speaking of literal stars falling to the earth as well? You should know me better than that by now. If a REAL star fell to earth, we would be no more. It is probably a meteor shower John saw.

You tend to interpret scripture very literally, even in the book of Revelation, so how could I be sure how you interpreted it?

But, now you're turning stars into meteors. You're assuming that what is being symbolized has to resemble the symbol itself. That's not true. As I've tried to tell you before, the symbols don't have to resemble what they symbolize. For example, the dragon with seven heads and ten horns represents Satan but that doesn't mean his actual appearance would resemble a dragon with seven heads and ten horns. I believe that until you understand this concept, you will continue to misinterpret the book of Revelation.

And heaven literally departing as a scroll? I doubt if anyone knows the meaning of this phrase.
Since life goes on, it is not as disastrous as it sounds.

Life goes on? Really? How do you figure? People are figuratively shown to be desperately trying to avoid the wrath of the Lamb by having the mountains and rocks fall on them and yet they somehow survive it? How? They'd rather die by having mountains and rocks fall on them than face the wrath of the Lamb, but you think they would survive the wrath of the Lamb? I don't get it.

You assume that the trumpets and vials follow the seals chronologically and that's why you think people survive after the seventh seal is opened, but you miss that they are several parallel sections or recapitulations within the book. The seventh trumpet signals that the time of the destruction of the wicked and judgment of the dead has arrived, but you still somehow have all the bowls/vials following that. It just doesn't fit to think that it all happens chronologically.

or literally every mountain and island being moved out of their places, Did you not know that every mountain and island DID move out of their places with that great earthquake and tsunami off the coast of Japan? The entire planet moved on its axis by several inches. I see no reason why this cannot be taken as literal. It will be a worldwide earthquake caused when God raises those in Christ around the planet.

Where is your consistency? The stars falling to earth are not literal stars but the earthquake has to be literal? To me, that passage is either all literal or all symbolic. It doesn't make sense to me to pick and choose which is which.

Like Paul, Peter said destruction will be coming to the earth on the day Christ comes. Sorry, but trying to make the fire that cleanses the earth into Paul's sudden destruction won't work either. It is back to TIMING. You really need to pay more attention to timing.

How are they not the same when both speak of the destruction that will occur on the day of the Lord? Don't you think if the timing Paul spoke of is the same as what Peter spoke of then it would make sense that Paul would say "they will not escape"? Surely, no one would escape fire coming down upon the entire earth.

In this post, I have corrected clear errors that you made interpreting various scripture passages such as you thinking that Matthew 24:29-31 only describes the elect being gathered in heaven (because of your lack of taking the parallel Mark 13 passage into consideration) and you thinking that the apostasia has to do with the rapture rather than a falling away from the faith. Honestly, I think you are the one who needs to pay more attention.