The Rapture theory is true?

[Spiritual Jew]

1 Thes. 4 and Rev. 19: TWO comings. It is written.

Where is it written that those are 2 separate events? It's not. You only assume that. The only way you could prove that from the passages themselves is if one passage contained a detail that contradicted a detail in the other passage which would show they are speaking of different events. But, that isn't the case here. There are details in 1 Thess 4 that aren't also in Rev 19 and vice versa, but there's no contradictions between the two.

You cannot UNDO what is written, no matter how hard you try. You are simply mistaken.

You undo what is written by turning the word apostasia into the rapture of the church rather than what it actually means, which is a falling away from the faith. You're not the one who should be criticizing someone else for undoing what is written.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I'm pretty sure Matthew and Mark are among the writers of the NT.
True, but they did not receive a revelation on the rapture of the church.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days
Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation,

This is as far as one has to read to KNOW these verses cannot possibly refer to Paul's rapture, which will come BEFORE "the tribulation." These passages must therefore refer to ANOTHER "gathering."

Yes, OF COURSE there is basis - but people with preconceptions will probably ignore the basis.

The rapture refers to Christ's people being gathered to Him when He comes. The question we must ask is WHICH COMING and WHEN. There will be a 1st Thes. 4 coming just before wrath, and there will be a coming shown in Rev. 19 AFTER wrath. One CANNOT ignore timing and hope to be correct.

Where does 1 Thess 4 say anything about Him coming before the tribulation? You know it doesn't. So, can you clearly show how you are coming to that conclusion?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Not correct. There is a very good and scripturally proven; literal explanation for the disasters of the Sixth Seal.
Isaiah 39:26a tells us exactly what the Lord will use on His Day of fiery wrath. Malachi 4:1, Psalms 50:1-4, 2 Peter 3:7
This forthcoming blast from the sun, will change our civilization and set the scene for all that must happen before Jesus Returns.
Nowhere does the Bible say the Church will be taken off the earth.

Not correct. How do you interpret 1 Thess 4:13-17? How does being caught up in the air to meet Jesus not a case of being taken off the earth? To me, it makes sense that would happen because I believe He then immediately destroys the earth with fire after that.

Those who have proved their faith by standing firm thru it all, will be gathered to Jesus, at His return. Matthew 24:30-31

How exactly would any mortals survive the burning up of the entire earth (2 Peter 3)? We know it's the entire earth, not only from the description of the fiery destruction itself, but also from the fact that Peter (and Jesus in Matt 24:36-39) compares the scope of the destruction directly to what happened with the flood in Noah's day.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

What does 2000 years of church history has to do with the timing of His coming?
Are you a JEW and so expecting your age to end with the 7 years of Jacob's trouble?

I am NOT a Jew, don't have a Jewish mother and am a part of the Gentile church of today. I know we are in the dispensation given to Paul for the Gentiles. I know OUR age will end and "time" will revert back to Jewish time. If you are a Gentile as I am, then these verses are written to YOU:

1 Corinthians 9:17
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Ephesians 3:2
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
(The age of GRACE in which we abide.)
Colossians 1:25
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

Many people try to mingle this dispensation for the Gentiles with Jewish time. They don't mix.

Where does scripture teach anything about a Gentile church? I don't believe it does anywhere. The scriptures you quoted certainly make no mention of a "Gentile church".

Do you see that taught here:

Galatians 3:26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

How about here:

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

 

[Freedm]

It is not used anywhere in scripture that I have ever found as a spiritual rising from being separated from God to being connected back to God as in being born again.

It is used as such, in Revelation 20.

Then again, when we are dead to God, a sinner, our spirit is not dead - it is only separated from God. "Death" to God is never a ceasing to exist - it is always a separation. When Adam sinned and died instantly in spirit, it was His spirit suddenly being SEPARATED from God.

When a human dies, He or she does not cease to exist: what happens is he Spirit with the soul SEPARATES from the body. In eternal death, a human is eternally separated from God.

In other words, the word resurrection only fits PHYSICAL dead being raised physically, from horizontal to vertical standing.

We don't actually have a spirit, in the sense that you believe. We will become spirits at the resurrection, but until then we are only dust and to dust we will return.

Either way, it's not necessary to get into the state of a spirit for the topic at hand. The bottom line is, Jesus said we will be raised on the last day, and just as the angel Gabriel told Daniel, and the way I read scripture that makes perfect sense. And both Acts 24 and John 5 say there will be a single resurrection for both the righteous and the wicked, and again, the way I read scripture that makes perfect sense.

Acts 24:15
and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

John 5:28-29
“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

You can look at the Latin and dissect the "definition" of resurrection all you want, but if you insist that a resurrection can be physical only then that leaves you with some significant scriptures that you have to twist and adjust to make them fit.

 

[Freedm]

I challenge you to find ONE PLACE in scripture where the English word "resurrection" and the Greek word behind it is used in any spiritual sense. It simply cannot be found. God's use of the word Resurrection is speaking of physical dead people being raised from the dead.

NOte, "the hour is coming" sounds as if all the graves come out in one hour. Again, the Greek word behind "hour" is also translated as a season. I still think it is better to consider those verses as a manner of speaking back then. NO ONE back then (except maybe Jesus) knew there were to one resurrection for the righteous and then a thousand years later another resurrection for the damned. They did not have the book of Revelation as we do.

Bottom line, Paul literally said that "we have passed from death to life", "we were crucified with Christ", "we were dead and buried with Christ" and "God raised us up with Christ", so fully understanding the analogy in each of these statements being that of Jesus Christ himself physically dying and standing up, how can you read these scriptures and still claim that we have not experienced a resurrection along with Christ?

 

[Freedm]

Question: why do you fight so hard NOT to believe Rev. 20 as it is written - as a physical resurrection? Do you imagine that idea conflicts with other scriptures? If so, WHAT other scriptures.

Absolutely it conflicts with other scriptures and that is exactly why I fight so hard. Which scriptures are those? I've already mentioned most of these but here they are for you again.

Jesus told us four times that we will be resurrected on the last day. He didn't say "the last day of this age" or "the last day of the Jewish age" or "the last day before the thousand years" or any other such variation. No, he simply said "the last day". I don't want to change what he said, so if he said we will be resurrected on the last day then I take that to literally mean the last day.

John 6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

John 6:40
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Martha also mentioned it in John chapter 11.

John 11:24
Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

In Daniel chapter 12 this position is confirmed when the angel Gabriel tells Daniel that he will rest until "the end of days". The end of days, means days are ending, as in there will be no more days after that.

Acts 24:15 says there will be "A" resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. Not two resurrections, but A resurrection, as in single.

John 2:28 says that the hour (not two hours, one hour) is coming, in which all (not some) who are in their graves will rise, some to damnation and some to life.

Then if you look at Acts 3:21 you see that Jesus will not return until all things are renewed, which can only mean the new heaven and earth, meaning he returns for us on the day that we inherit the new earth, not before.

So with all this clear and precise language, not merely casting doubt on, but literally contradicting the notion of the righteous being resurrected separately from the wicked, or being resurrected prior to the end of days, or Jesus returning a thousand years prior to the new earth being revealed, why would I still believe such things? No, I'm accepting what it says because scripture confirms scripture and as you can see it's certainly been confirmed here.

It's a simple matter of putting the puzzle pieces together and with these pieces we clearly see that Jesus will return for us on the last day, the day we inherit the new earth, and on that same day both the righteous and the wicked will be resurrected to stand before the judgment throne.

 

[Freedm]

WHY would Paul mention wrath in association with the rapture UNLESS wrath was to follow the rapture? If people really understood Paul, two groups of people get two different results at one moment in time: those in Christ get raptured and get to "live together with Him," while at the same time, those left behind get "sudden destruction."

Ever wonder what the "sudden destruction" was or will be? It is going to be the worldwide earthquake caused when God raises the dead in Christ. It is going to be a worldwide earthquake. You find that earthquake at the 6th seal, just before wrath - exactly what Paul tells us. The rapture will be the trigger for the Day of the Lord: the age of grace ends - and the next moment it is the Day of the Lord - no time between.

Ironically, most of what you say here is true, but you don't seem to understand why it's true. You seem to be under the impression that God's wrath is a physical death on this earth, but what kind of wrath would that be compared to the eternal wrath of the lake of fire? You're right, wrath does come right after the resurrection, because that's when we all stand before the throne of God and the righteous receive their inheritance while the wicked receive their portion of wrath, but clearly there's no requirement in this claim for the wicked to remain on earth after the righteous are "raptured" up. The lake of fire is wrath and sudden destruction.

 

[Freedm]

Paul also says we leave this body here on earth and get a new body at death.

Actually, Paul tells us that our bodies will be transformed, from the natural to the spiritual.

1 Corinthians 15
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

 

[Freedm]

Just for the record: "spiritually dead" does not mean "horizontal and not moving," as of a dead body; it only means separated from God. Therefore to use the word "resurrection" for the born again experience is using it in error. A REAL resurrection takes a horizontal body and stands it up - Vertical!

Being born again does not even come close to this. It is a different subject entirely.

If you agree that death can be spiritual, why can resurrection not be spiritual?

 

[iamlamad]

Actually I am a Messianic Jew.

I believe that Christ returns once at the end of the age.

Yes I do believe that a period of tribulation will precede his coming.

Wow! Congratulations on believing in Jesus as your Messiah! It is GREAT!

 

[iamlamad]

If you agree that death can be spiritual, why can resurrection not be spiritual?

It is the definition. Death spiritually only means separation. It does not mean becoming horizontal or ceasing to function.

But physical death DOES mean becoming horizontal and ceasing to function. Resurrection in the KJV comes from the greek word "ä-nä'-stä-ses" And the second part of this compound word is STANDING - meaning, vertical, not horizontal. The very word "resurrection" means to take someone horizontal and not functioning to a vertical standing position and functioning. Sorry, but this just does not fit being disconnected or separated from God.

 

[iamlamad]

Ironically, most of what you say here is true, but you don't seem to understand why it's true. You seem to be under the impression that God's wrath is a physical death on this earth, but what kind of wrath would that be compared to the eternal wrath of the lake of fire? You're right, wrath does come right after the resurrection, because that's when we all stand before the throne of God and the righteous receive their inheritance while the wicked receive their portion of wrath, but clearly there's no requirement in this claim for the wicked to remain on earth after the righteous are "raptured" up. The lake of fire is wrath and sudden destruction.

Sorry, but we cannot use imagination to form doctrine; we must follow the scripture line upon line. Where is "wrath" first mentioned in Revelation? It is at the 6th seal in chapter 6. The "end" you talk about is the Great, White Throne judgment that is in chapter 20 and well over a thousand years AFTER the 6th seal events. We simply cannot ignore time when we form doctrine. Believe it or not, like it or not, Revelation has a timeline. The 6th seal starts the Day of the Lord, and the 7th starts the 70th week. The 70th week then ends at the 7th vial, but the DAY continues on. That makes the 70th week INSIDE the Day of the Lord.

WRath starts just before the week, showing us that the ENTIRE WEEK is a time of God's wrath. But Just knowing God is angry is not enough. What will God DO? He will cause 7 angels to sound 7 trumpets and these will be judgments coming with His wrath. From the OT we learn the the purpose of the DAY is to destroy the world and the sinners in the world - and we see God systematically proceeding with that in the trumpets.

But Paul tells us his gathering will come BEFORE wrath. That means the rapture MUST happen before the first trumpet judgment in chapter 8. And how amazing! John saw the raptured church in heaven BEFORE the first trumpet comes with His wrath.

You seem to be under the impression that God's wrath is a physical death on this earth No, God's wrath means HE IS ANGRY at a world that refuses to acknowledge Him. It will be His angry that will cause Him to destroy this world and the sinners in the world.

what kind of wrath would that be compared to the eternal wrath of the lake of fire? Does this mean you don't think killing 1/3 of earth's population will come with the wrath of God? What kind of God do you imagine He is? He is not a murderer! But on the other hand, He is JUSTICE personified, so to speak. He would not be a just God if He did not punish sin. The greatest sin is rejecting the SON. It is the sin that puts people into hell. The wrath that sends sinners to the lake of fire is the very same wrath that the vials are filled with. God will not allow His church to be here for ANY of His wrath.

but clearly there's no requirement in this claim for the wicked to remain on earth after the righteous are "raptured" up.
You need to read Revelation again: that is MUCH in the book after the 6th seal rapture. PEOPLE are sitll on the planet and still rejecting Jesus. The "Left Behind" series may not be totally accurate as to doctrine, but they have the basics: MILLIONS will be left behind at the rapture - indeed, BILLIONS. And Paul's sudden destruction (the 6th seal earthquake) will not kill them all. No one can escape it - for it will be worldwide - but that does not mean all will die. And again I remind you, chapters 8 on in Revelation come after the rapture.

"Sudden Destruction" will come at the 6th seal earthquake, Rev. chapter 6. Then comes chapter 7, the intermission where God verifies that the church is in heaven and the 144,000 are sealed. Then comes chapter 8 and 9 and the first 6 trumpet judgments. Then the midpoint of the week in chapter 11, then the war in heaven, then days of great tribulation in chapter 15. Finally the vials in chapter 16 and then the end of the week. Finally, some UNKNOWN time after the week ends (the 7th vial) Jesus comes, and then the Beast and False Prophet are thrown into the lake of fire. The FIRST TWO people into the lake. And this will happen over 7 years AFTER the rapture and sudden destruction. AGain, we cannot ignore TIME.

 

[iamlamad]

Absolutely it conflicts with other scriptures and that is exactly why I fight so hard. Which scriptures are those? I've already mentioned most of these but here they are for you again.

Jesus told us four times that we will be resurrected on the last day. He didn't say "the last day of this age" or "the last day of the Jewish age" or "the last day before the thousand years" or any other such variation. No, he simply said "the last day". I don't want to change what he said, so if he said we will be resurrected on the last day then I take that to literally mean the last day.

John 6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

John 6:40
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Martha also mentioned it in John chapter 11.

John 11:24
Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

In Daniel chapter 12 this position is confirmed when the angel Gabriel tells Daniel that he will rest until "the end of days". The end of days, means days are ending, as in there will be no more days after that.

Acts 24:15 says there will be "A" resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. Not two resurrections, but A resurrection, as in single.

John 2:28 says that the hour (not two hours, one hour) is coming, in which all (not some) who are in their graves will rise, some to damnation and some to life.

Then if you look at Acts 3:21 you see that Jesus will not return until all things are renewed, which can only mean the new heaven and earth, meaning he returns for us on the day that we inherit the new earth, not before.

So with all this clear and precise language, not merely casting doubt on, but literally contradicting the notion of the righteous being resurrected separately from the wicked, or being resurrected prior to the end of days, or Jesus returning a thousand years prior to the new earth being revealed, why would I still believe such things? No, I'm accepting what it says because scripture confirms scripture and as you can see it's certainly been confirmed here.

It's a simple matter of putting the puzzle pieces together and with these pieces we clearly see that Jesus will return for us on the last day, the day we inherit the new earth, and on that same day both the righteous and the wicked will be resurrected to stand before the judgment throne.

When Jesus said "day," He really did not say "day" as in our English word. We don't know the exact word He said, and no one is alive today to tell us. But the WRITERS wrote what He said in Greek or Aramaic and all we have of what they wrote is Greek Texts. We may then be two langauges removed from the exact words Jesus spoke.

I guess, when you read day, you think a 24 hour day as we have it in English. But the Greek word behind day can mean a day, or a season of time. Then there is the possibility that when Jesus said whatever word He said, His meaning was the last day begin the Day of the Lord that will end up the age. Then again, "the last day" may well have just been a manner of speech back then, to mean "end times." In other words, in these verses we have freedom to believe it was not just a 24 hour day. On the other hand, what in the world can we do with "but the rest of the dead lived not until the 1000 years were over?" That is about as plain as a sentence can be in English. And I can find no wavering in the Greek. It means what it says and says what it means.

YOU want to change the meaning of Rev. 20, and I want to change the meaning of what Jesus said in John. Your method is to change the meaning of a word. My method is to use other English translations. The big question is, which is written in the plainest language?

It is VERY clear in Rev. 20 that a resurrection of physical bodies occurred: those beheaded LIVED AGAIN and were seen reigning with Christ. Others were seen seated on thrones judging. Of course they had to be resurrected to accomplish that. Ghosts cannot judge natural people. They cannot even communicate with natural people.

I personally think "the last day" was just a manner of speech, meaning the Day of judgment or the Day of the Lord.

The Cambridge Bible notes:
the last day This phrase is peculiar to S. John, and occurs seven times in this Gospel. Elsewhere it is called ‘the Day of the Lord,’ ‘the Great Day,’

So we are at an impasse. I will not change Resurrection to mean something spiritual and you will not budge on "last day," when Paul and John in Revelation both disagree with your take on John 5.

 

[iamlamad]

Bottom line, Paul literally said that "we have passed from death to life", "we were crucified with Christ", "we were dead and buried with Christ" and "God raised us up with Christ", so fully understanding the analogy in each of these statements being that of Jesus Christ himself physically dying and standing up, how can you read these scriptures and still claim that we have not experienced a resurrection along with Christ?

Simple: it does not fit. Our spirits did not cease to function and give life to our bodies because they were Separated from God. What they did in that state is become a sin generator.

If "dead" meant to cease to function, the entire human race would never have started, because it is the human spirit in a body that gives that body life. Cain would have been still born, as would every other child Adam and Eve had. It only means separated from God, but very much alive and functioning. Therefore "resurrection" does not fit.

 

[iamlamad]

It is used as such, in Revelation 20.



We don't actually have a spirit, in the sense that you believe. We will become spirits at the resurrection, but until then we are only dust and to dust we will return.

Either way, it's not necessary to get into the state of a spirit for the topic at hand. The bottom line is, Jesus said we will be raised on the last day, and just as the angel Gabriel told Daniel, and the way I read scripture that makes perfect sense. And both Acts 24 and John 5 say there will be a single resurrection for both the righteous and the wicked, and again, the way I read scripture that makes perfect sense.

Acts 24:15
and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

John 5:28-29
“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

You can look at the Latin and dissect the "definition" of resurrection all you want, but if you insist that a resurrection can be physical only then that leaves you with some significant scriptures that you have to twist and adjust to make them fit.

It is used as such, in Revelation 20. No, that is only imagination.

 

[iamlamad]

Where does scripture teach anything about a Gentile church? I don't believe it does anywhere. The scriptures you quoted certainly make no mention of a "Gentile church".

Do you see that taught here:

Galatians 3:26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

How about here:

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

Just search and see how many times Paul used Gentile in his letters to church people.

 

[iamlamad]

Where does 1 Thess 4 say anything about Him coming before the tribulation? You know it doesn't. So, can you clearly show how you are coming to that conclusion?

Where does 1 Thes. 4 say anything about His coming after the tribulation of those days? You know it doesn't.

I have been over this countless times, but just for you:
Paul tells us that his gathering comes just before wrath.
John tells us God's wrath begins at the 6th seal.
ANYONE can tell us that chapter 6 comes before chapter 19.

See how simple this is if we just follow John's timeline?

 

[iamlamad]

Where is it written that those are 2 separate events? It's not. You only assume that. The only way you could prove that from the passages themselves is if one passage contained a detail that contradicted a detail in the other passage which would show they are speaking of different events. But, that isn't the case here. There are details in 1 Thess 4 that aren't also in Rev 19 and vice versa, but there's no contradictions between the two.

You undo what is written by turning the word apostasia into the rapture of the church rather than what it actually means, which is a falling away from the faith. You're not the one who should be criticizing someone else for undoing what is written.

Where is it written that these two are ONE EVENT? It's not. You only assume that.

If you wish to believe they are one and the same, chances are very good that you will not be expecting Jesus when He comes pretrib. I really hope that works out for you.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Just search and see how many times Paul used Gentile in his letters to church people.

This is your evidence of the existence of a "Gentile church"? Show me where the concept of a "Gentile church" is taught. What do you do with all the times that Paul said that there is neither Jew nor Gentile and that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile believers in the church? Paul knew nothing of a "Gentile church". He only spoke about the one body of Christ, the one church that has both Jew and Gentile believers in it.