want to talk about OSAS?

[1an]

My stance is that we are eternally secure providing
1) We live a life that is pleasing to God
2) We do not fall away, ever.
.

 

[RickReads]

Real Arminians believe just the same as Calvinists regarding free will or lack thereof. See below

Arminius writes,

“THIS is my opinion concerning the free-will of man: In his primitive condition as he came out of the hands of his creator, man was endowed with such a portion of knowledge, holiness and power, as enabled him to understand, esteem, consider, will, and to perform the true good, according to the commandment delivered to him. Yet none of these acts could he do, except through the assistance of Divine Grace. But in his lapsed and sinful state, man is not capable, of and by himself, either to think, to will, or to do that which is really good; but it is necessary for him to be regenerated and renewed in his intellect, affections or will, and in all his powers, by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he may be qualified rightly to understand, esteem, consider, will, and perform whatever is truly good. When he is made a partaker of this regeneration or renovation, I consider that, since he is delivered from sin, he is capable of thinking, willing and doing that which is good, but yet not without the continued aids of Divine Grace.” 7
Jacobus Arminius: Works of James Arminius, Vol. 1 - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

I thought it was limited free will for Armins ?

 

[RickReads]

My stance is that we are eternally secure providing
1) We live a life that is pleasing to God
2) We do not fall away, ever.
.

Then you add a works component to your salvation. You have to help Jesus save you by doing the pleasing life. That`s the problem with taking out salvation by the election. Works become part of the salvation.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I thought it was limited free will for Armins ?

many believe that but they are no even familiar with what James Arminius taught. I have to come to their rescue many times over the decades when being attacked on the topic or sating there is free will in mans fallen state.

Both calvin and arminius were in agreement. there is a difference between historic classic arminians and those who call themselves arminians today.

 

[RickReads]

many believe that but they are no even familiar with what James Arminius taught. I have to come to their rescue many times over the decades when being attacked on the topic or sating there is free will in mans fallen state.

Both calvin and arminius were in agreement. there is a difference between historic classic arminians and those who call themselves arminians today.

Well, come join the discussion in your other thread. I like being outnumbered. Your friend over there needs your help.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Well, come join the discussion in your other thread. I like being outnumbered. Your friend over there needs your help.

which thread reply with a link lol

 

[1an]

Then you add a works component to your salvation. You have to help Jesus save you by doing the pleasing life. That`s the problem with taking out salvation by the election. Works become part of the salvation.

I don't agree. I asked Christ into my life as a child, and He has done all the work.
.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

View attachment 287167
You might want to google it. There is a lot of interesting info.

I believe one should ask God the truth if Once Saved Always Saved is true and they should really be asking with a pure heart (repeatedly) in seeking the truth and fasting, and then they should start searching the Scriptures to see whether those things are so or not. I believe one should look at the evidence also for Conditional Salvation and see why folks believe that is biblical, as well. One should not just conform to one view just because it is sounds more comforting and easy. Jesus said, “Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” (Matthew 7:13-14). Paul said, “...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” Jesus also said, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able (Luke 13:24). OSAS sounds like the easy and wide gate path everyone is on in my opinion because it makes room for a person to never worry about if they are saved if they fall into sin or if they are not doing any good works for the Lord (like preaching the gospel, helping the poor, loving the brethren, etc.). In OSAS, I do not have to strive to enter any narrow way. I just believe on Jesus, and I am good. Super easy.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I believe one should ask God the truth if Once Saved Always Saved is true and they should really be asking with a pure heart (repeatedly) in seeking the truth and fasting, and then they should start searching the Scriptures to see whether those things are so or not. I believe one should look at the evidence also for Conditional Salvation and see why folks believe that is biblical, as well. One should not just conform to one view just because it is sounds more comforting and easy. Jesus said, “Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” (Matthew 7:13-14). Paul said, “...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” Jesus also said, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able (Luke 13:24). OSAS sounds like the easy and wide gate path everyone is on in my opinion because it makes room for a person to never worry about if they are saved if they fall into sin or if they are not doing any good works for the Lord (like preaching the gospel, helping the poor, loving the brethren, etc.).

The better question is this:

Are the promises of Eternal Life true or false ?

hope this helps !!!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Rediculous, 12 verses is not an "isolation". No one in any of your examples was predestined for salvation.

The Bible talks about how there are false prophets and false teachers among the people who deny the Lord that bought them.

“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.” (2 Peter 2:1).​

We also learn that those who perish are doing so because they received not the love of the truth that they MIGHT be saved.

“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.” (2 Thessalonians 2:10).​

The word MIGHT suggests the possibility that they could potentially be saved, but they simply did not receive the love of the truth. They are perishing because they received not the love of the truth and not because God elected them to reprobation by default.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Your salvation is way too small and petty. Do you know the difference between soul and spirit? The spirit is the part of us that gets born again. For a born again Christian to die spiritually, God, in effect, would be killing the very part of us that He made to live. The spirit is the eternal part of us. A Christian can lose their soul and suffer great loss. The spirit of the born again is eternal. God is not about to kill that which He made alive.

Again the confusion arises because people are unaware of the difference between the initial salvation of being born again and the on-going salvation of the soul. And no, it is not progressive sanctification. Sorry, Baptists, you are wrong.

Test the waters of Conditional Salvation by asking God for the truth, and in searching the Scriptures repeatedly in fasting and prayer. For if you are wrong, you are throwing away everything on a false insurance policy, my friend.

As for the soul and spirit:

Well, from my talk with OSAS proponents, they have essentially told me (by the use of other words) that you can sin in the flesh or body, but your spirit is clean and holy because Jesus paid for all your present, and future sins for eternity. But this is not biblical because in 2 Corinthians 7:1, Paul tells us,

“Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Corinthians 7:1).​

Okay. Paul tells here for us to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh AND SPIRIT. So this means that the whole dual nature teaching that you sin in your body but not in your eternal spirit is false according to 2 Corinthians 7:1.

In addition to that, this verse also tells us the reason or purpose behind cleansing ourselves of all filthiness of the flesh and spirit. The reason is perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Now, in OSAS, there is no such thing as perfecting holiness in the fear of God. There is no reason to fear God at all because you are eternally secure. Sure, you may go through some challenges in life by chastisement, but even unbelievers go through the same life challenges and so there really is nothing to fear. Jesus says, “And you shall not be afraid of those who kill the body that are not able to kill the soul; rather be afraid of him who can destroy soul and body in Gehenna.” (Matthew 10:28).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The better question is this:

Are the promises of Eternal Life true or false ?

hope this helps !!!

The promise covenant of eternal life is true, but we have to understand who is eternal life and how one acquires and maintains it.

#1. Eternal life is a person (1 Timothy 6:16), and not a super power and one needs to abide in Christ in order to have life (1 John 5:12) (John 14:6).
#2. The way we can know we have Christ abiding in our life is by keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3).
#3. Covenant promises have always been broken by sin or disobedience (of which we learn by Israel's disobedience).​

“Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;” (Hebrews 3:12-14).

Jesus says if we do not receive His words, those very words will judge us on the last day (See: John 12:48).

What words of Jesus can judge us?

Not accepting the plain meaning of the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, etc.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

The promise covenant of eternal life is true, but we have to understand who is eternal life and how one acquires and maintains it.

#1. Eternal life is a person (1 Timothy 6:16), and not a super power and one needs to abide in Christ in order to have life (1 John 5:12) (John 14:6).
#2. The way we can know we have Christ abiding in our life is by keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3).
#3. Covenant promises have always been broken by sin or disobedience (of which we learn by Israel's disobedience).​

“Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;” (Hebrews 3:12-14).

Jesus says if we do not receive His words, those very words will judge us on the last day (See: John 12:48).

What words of Jesus can judge us?

Not accepting the plain meaning of the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, etc.

I started a new thread to only discuss Eternal Life passages. Feel free to participate and not go off topic.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Then you add a works component to your salvation. You have to help Jesus save you by doing the pleasing life. That`s the problem with taking out salvation by the election. Works become part of the salvation.

A person is going to do works regardless. One's works are either going to be good or evil. Believers who hold to Belief Alone-ism believe they are saved regardless of whether they do good or evil works. But what did Jesus say to those believers who did wonderful works (good works) in His name? Jesus told them to depart from Him because they worked inquity. Iniquity is sin (See: Matthew 7:23).

John 5:29 says, “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

Obviously those who justified sin under God's grace are doing evil and not good. This is why Belief Alone-ism (or OSAS) is not true. On some level, it leads to treating God's grace into a license for immorality as Jude 1:4 warns us about.

Many have told me in the OSAS camp that they are for the believer living holy and if they don't live holy, they were never born again to begin with. But when push comes to shove, and I discover more of what they believe, they admit that a believer can sin and still be saved, as well. So they are not really for living holy according to the Bible. For most all OSAS proponents will tell me (by the use of other words) that they cannot stop committing mortal sins this side of Heaven, and they tell me that they are all sinners saved by His grace, and they are saved even if they sin.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I started a new thread to only discuss Eternal Life passages. Feel free to participate and not go off topic.

It's not off topic to discuss Eternal Life and how that is Conditional (Thereby refuting OSAS or Once Saved Always Saved). But it would be off topic if I continually talked about the weather or something.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus alone has immortality according to 1 Timothy 6:16.
This means Jesus is the possessor of eternal life and it is not something that is ours without Jesus.

A person has to have the Son in order to have life and if they do not have the Son they do not have life (1 John 5:12). Meaning, in order to have eternal life, we have to abide in the Son.

How can we have an assurance in knowing Jesus and thereby have an assurance that we have eternal life via by the Son? 1 John 2:3 says that we can have an assurance in knowing the Lord if we find that we are keeping His commandments. 1 John 2:4 says that the person who does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them. What truth is not in them? Jesus. For Jesus is the way the truth and the life (John 14:6). There really is nothing more to discuss on this point. Check out these verses for yourself and you will see that what they say is true.

This is just one of the many reasons in Scripture why OSAS is not true.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I only have a minute so this will do for now.

" And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know."

I did a little more research into 1 Corinthians 8:2. I read the context and did a little more searching.
After I looking into it, I have come to discover so far that this verse is in context to Paul rebuking the Corinthians on their false knowledge in that they thought were right in that they could not eat meat sacrificed to idols. The Corinthians also needed to be corrected on loving (1 Corinthians 13). 1 Corinthians 8:1 talks about how their knowledge alone is not beneficial and it can only puff up because they are not loving in their actions (i.e. charity). So this verse is not saying that one cannot know certain things. A brain surgeon can say that they are good at what they do if they have a track record to prove it. Granted, they may not know everything even about brain surgery. Only God knows all things. But nowhere did I claim to know everything there is to know about the biblical fight against OSAS. I am nothing, and all I know is by His grace. I also like to double check what I know in the Bible many times to make sure I am following the right way and path before confirming the truth. I love to test everything with the Word of God. What I do not see happening here is anyone challenging me on the verses I brought forth. I have offered many verses that refutes OSAS, and none of them have been properly explained using the Bible. But then again, this is not a new development, I have been dealing with the same thing for over 10 years. Those who have challenged me on occasion will either:

(a) Not believe the written plain meaning, or
(b) Disbelieve what the verse says in the English in favor of their own private Greek or Hebrew interpretation that nobody can really prove otherwise because they are dead languages.

I say these things not to boast that I know all things on the topic of fighting against OSAS. I am always learning on this topic, and the more I learn, the more verses I find that refutes OSAS and not less.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

It's not off topic to discuss Eternal Life and how that is Conditional (Thereby refuting OSAS or Once Saved Always Saved). But it would be off topic if I continually talked about the weather or something.

Sure it is for there is NO SCRIPTURE stating Eternal life is ever lost. Feel free to join in if you can stay on topic

John 3:16
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Those who have Eternal Life are not condemned as Paul says there is no condemnation for those in Christ. Nothing can separate us from Christ.

John 3:36
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life;

John 5:24
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

We have Eternal Life now.

John 6:47
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

John 6:54
54 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 10:27-30
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one."

His sheep NEVER perish they are secure in Him.

Matthew 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Eternal Life is present and future as we read above and below. We have passed out of death into life. Its a done deal, no conditions.

1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed out of death into life,

1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

We have full assurance of Eternal Life above. Its something we can know.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You talk like a salesman, presenting two options as if that was all there was.

Whatever label you want to give me, that is between you and the Lord. I am only a messenger of God's Word. I am nothing. Christ is everything. I am here to only present to you what His Word plainly says. If you believe it says something else, the burden proof is on you to show me that is what it says by His Word.

Perhaps you honestly believe those are the only logical options, but I'm not falling for your logic. You take large leaps where they are not called for. 1 John 1:9 does not have to be about a break in fellowship nor about salvation. It does not have to be about a new convert, and certainly is not about maintaining salvation.

I believe God will complete what he has begun; if one is indeed saved, he will always be saved, and that, by the work of God. If his life is not characterized by obedience, confession of sin, and the other necessary marks of the regenerated, there is reason to doubt he is regenerated. That alone should answer your question, but you want it painted with your colors on your canvas. 1 John 1:9 applies regardless, but contextually it is said to believers (already regenerated) so no, it is not, as such, concerning the original confession of sin. The principle applies the same way, though. If the lost is found, they will confess sin. If the already found sin, they will confess sin. If the lost does not confess sin, they are still lost. If the already found do not confess sin, they will, sooner or later, or they are not already found.

If things are as you say and 1 John 1:9 was just the indication of a transformed believer, then John would never say IF we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. It would be like saying, if I open the door, I am then able to enter the house. Yet, you want me to believe that I am already in the house before opening the door. This is your interpretation on 1 John 1:9. It says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If things are you say 1 John 1:9 would say, and the Elect of God will always confess of sins as a part of being already forgiven of sin. But that is not what 1 John 1:9 says. Point A (confessing sins) is before one can meet Point B (He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins). Either way, one has to meet the condition of confessing sins in order to be forgiven.

You said that this verse is not talking about salvation. Yet, you are saying that this is a mark of being one of the Elect. Is not being one of the Elect about salvation? So you contradict yourself, my friend. In addition, 1 John 1:7 says IF we walk in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. This is the context of 1 John 1:9. Is not the cleansing blood of Jesus dealing with salvation? 1 John 1:7 also mentions having fellowship, too. You said before that 1 John 1:9 is not dealing with fellowship, but the context is talking about fellowship (i.e. 1 John 1:7).

Why do you think "working out your salvation with fear and trembling" means one's salvation is maintained by the believer? That is not Gospel. Salvation is the work of God alone.

Then why does Paul say in Philippians 2:12 to work out your salvation with fear and trembling?
Why does Jesus say strive to enter the narrow gate in Luke 13:24?

Jesus says, “Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.” (Luke 13:24).

This does not sound like salvation was forced upon me, but it sounds like I have something to do in order to to be saved. See the context (i.e. Luke 13:23) and you will see that is in reference to salvation.

We are told to repent and then we will be converted.

Acts of the Apostles 3:19 says, “Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;”

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sure it is for there is NO SCRIPTURE stating Eternal life is ever lost. Feel free to join in if you can stay on topic

John 3:16
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Those who have Eternal Life are not condemned as Paul says there is no condemnation for those in Christ. Nothing can separate us from Christ.

John 3:36
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life;

John 5:24
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

We have Eternal Life now.

John 6:47
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

John 6:54
54 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 10:27-30
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one."

His sheep NEVER perish they are secure in Him.

Matthew 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Eternal Life is present and future as we read above and below. We have passed out of death into life. Its a done deal, no conditions.

1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed out of death into life,

1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

We have full assurance of Eternal Life above. Its something we can know.

hope this helps !!!

You are taking these verses out of context. I will address the context of the verses later when I have more time. Maybe tonight or tomorrow sometime.