There is only one beast spoken of in the Revelation making war against the saints, and against the two witnesses , and against the Lamb - and it's the same beast (as you admit above), as the beast spoken of in Daniel 7. It continues for 42 months or 3.5 years or "a time, times and a half a time", or 1260 days -
the final 3.5 days of which the two witnesses are lying dead in the street of the city called Sodom and Egypt.
This is why I believe what you say below is incorrect, and I will say why I believe it's incorrect below the next part of your post (and it's also only one of the things which you say below that I believe can't be true, which I will also get to after this part of your post):
If the 42 months and the 1260 days of Revelation 11 refer to the same time period as the 42 months of Rev 13:5, as I believe, then that would be all the evidence we need to prove that the timing of the beast coming out of the sea is not the same as the beast coming out of the pit. Allow me to explain.
Rev 11:1-6
I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4 They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.” 5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6 They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.
In Rev 13:5 it says "the beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months". To me this lines up with God allowing the Gentiles (heathen) to "trample on the holy city for 42 months".
But, at the same time, despite the beast wreaking havoc during that time, the two witnesses (which I believe symbolically represent the witness of the church) cannot be harmed. I believe that is a symbolic representation of the fact that the gates of hell will not prevail over the church (Matt 16:18). So, the 42 months (1260 days, time, times and half a time) that follow the ascension of the beast out of the sea symbolically represent the time since Christ's resurrection.
It's important to note that the beast doe not ascend out of the abyss/pit until after the two witnesses "have finished their testimony" (Rev 11:7). Which means he does not ascend out of the abyss until after the 42 months/1260 days. You have him ascending out of the abyss at the beginning of the 42 months. Rev 11 shows that he will have 3.5 days (Rev 11:7-12) to make war against the two witnesses (the church) and overcome them. Since you understand the time periods literally (I assume) then how can Rev 11:7-12 (the time of the beast after coming out of the abyss) refer to the same time period as Rev 13:1-8 (the time of the beast coming out of the sea) in your view?
You completely overlook the fact that the two witnesses are martyred 3.5
days before they rise from the dead - and they are martyred by the beast that ascends out of the abyss. The beast ascends out of the abyss
3.5 years before the return of Christ and the resurrection of the saints, (and the beast is destroyed
3.5 days after the death of the two witnesses, as can be seen by comparing I Thessalonians 4:15-18 with Revelation 11):
And
when they complete their testimony, the beast coming up out of the abyss will make war against them and will overcome them and kill them.
And their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
And many of the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will see their dead bodies three days and a half, and they will not allow their dead bodies to be put in tombs.
And the ones who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, and will make merry, and will send one another gifts, because these two prophets tormented those living on the earth.
And after three days and a half, a spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood on their feet. And great fear fell on those seeing them.
And they heard a great voice from Heaven saying to them, Come up here. And they went up to Heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.
And in that hour a great earthquake occurred, and the tenth part of the city fell. And seven thousand names of men were slain in the earthquake. And the rest were frightened and gave glory to the God of Heaven. (Revelation of John 11:7-13)
For we say this to you by the Word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall not go before those who are asleep.
For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ shall rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.
Therefore comfort one another with these words. (I Thessalonians 4:15-18)
"Therefore comfort one another with these words." - it's a message to those who will be alive in the last days which culminate in the return of the Lord and the resurrection of the saints.
Revelation 13 tells us that the beast will make war against the saints and overcome them, and continue for 42 months.
Revelation 11 tells us that the beast will make war against the two witnesses, overcome them and kill them 3.5
days before the return of the Lord and the resurrection of the saints.
Revelation 17 tells us that the beast will ascend out of the abyss and be defeated by Christ when it makes war against him.
Revelation 16 (the sixth bowl of wrath) tells us that the beast will gather its armies for Armageddon.
Revelation 19:11-21 tells us Christ will come down with His armies clothed in fine linen and defeat the beast, and then destroy it in the lake of fire.
I believe that the 3.5 days equates to Satan's little season described in Rev 20:7-9.
I know you do. All Amils do - and it's despite all the evidence to the contrary (and I'm only mentioning some of this evidence below:-
1. To begin with, as the OP of this thread shows, the literature of Revelation 20 gives no indication or hint or suggestion whatsoever that the Greek word chílioi, which denotes is a one-thousand year period, should be interpreted symbolically, and means thousands of years or an indefinite time. The Greek would have used myrias or some other word, were that the case.
2. Satan is only cast into the lake of fire
after the final rebellion, and the beast and the false prophet are (already) in it. Amils can never tell us how long the beast and false prophet had been in the lake of fire before Satan was cast into it - days, months, hours, years?
3. Revelation 20 tells us that the same beast that ascends out of the abyss, beheads saints for their testimony to Christ, for their refusal to worship the beast or receive its mark, and
at the beginning of the one-thousand year period, they are seen living and reigning with Christ for the one-thousand year period. So this cannot be at the close of the one-thousand year period.
4. Christ is not seen coming down from heaven at the close of Revelation 20
to destroy the beast and false prophet. Instead, we see fire coming down from heaven and destroying the Gog-Magog armies gathered against the camp of the saints.
5. Whereas the dead in Christ will rise when Christ returns (as per 1 Corinthians 15:20-26 and the other Biblical statements already mentioned here), at the close of Revelation 20, it's death and hades delivering up ALL the dead in them.
I believe Rev 11, 12 and 13 all symbolically represents a time when the dragon (Satan) and beast make war with the church but at the same time cannot stop the witness of the church (the preaching of the gospel) throughout the world.
Yet you also said that the two witnesses (who are witnesses to Christ) complete their testimony
before the beast described in Rev 11 and 13 ascends from the abyss.(PS: There is no beast described in Revelation 12 - only Satan).
That time began after the resurrection of Christ. The coming in power of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost right after the ascension of Christ ensured that nothing was going to stop the gospel from going out into the world through the power of the Holy Spirit.
Yet you also say:
I think it's fair to conclude that the fourth beast that Daniel prophesied about is the same beast (the first beast) that John prophesied about in the book of Revelation. The beast that was, is not and will ascend out of the abyss.
And
I believe premil "mentally adjusts the meaning" of many passages of clear, straightforward scripture. These would include Matt 24:35-39, John 5:28-29, 1 Thess 4:13-5:6, 2 Thess 1:7-10, and 2 Peter 3:3-13 among many others.
I believe Amil "mentally adjusts the meaning" of many passages of clear, straightforward scripture. These would include all the scriptures mentioned above, and it's quite clear to see that Amils will interpret Matt 24:35-39, John 5:28-29, 1 Thess 4:13-5:6, 2 Thess 1:7-10, and 2 Peter 3:3-13 among many others, in the "light" of the Amil premise, which cannot be upheld.
I'm just glad I'm not the only Premil in the world. I would start wondering if the reason I was the only Christian in the world who thought that Amils are misinterpreting passage after passage of scripture, interpreting all of them in the "light" of Amil, means that there must be something wrong with my brain.
"This generation" in Matthew 24:34 is from the Greek houtos, meaning 'the same generation that exists when the time comes for the prophecies He gave to be fulfilled'. It comes just
after "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." (verse 31).
When will that be, do you think?
Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they who hear shall live.
For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life within Himself,
and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of man.
Do not marvel at this, for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves shall hear His voice,
and shall come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil to the resurrection of condemnation." (John 5:25-29).
It's a good idea to interpret all scripture in the light of all other scripture, without trying to make it fit a theological premise:
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;" (I Corinthians 15:22-23)
Paul is only speaking of the resurrection of the saints at the coming of Christ.
"Then (Greek: eita, after this) is the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He makes to cease all rule and all authority and power.
for it is right for Him to reign until He has put all the enemies under His feet. The last enemy made to cease is death." (I Corinthians 15:24-26)
Christ will cause to cease all rule and authority and power after death has been destroyed.
1. Revelation 20 has death being destroyed a thousand years after those who are Christ's at His coming, have been resurrected (and these have reigned with Christ a thousand years).
2. Revelation 20 has death being destroyed after death and hades have delivered up ALL the dead in them for the Great White Throne judgment, when those whose names are not found in the Lamb's book of life will be cast into the lake of fire.
Can you see how the very scriptures which you claim "prove" Amil, do not "prove" Amil?
Do they prove Premil?
Well, quite obviously, those who believe all the dead will rise and the Great White Throne judgment will take place immediately after the return of Christ, will interpret the scriptures in the way you do, and believe that the scriptures you quote are "proof" of Amil.
So it all begins with with what your starting premise is with regard to Revelation 20 - do you believe the Bible regarding Revelation 20, taking the words at face value (bearing in mind the literature used in the Greek for one-thousand), or do you believe it must have its meaning adjusted to fit a different starting-premise? Whatever you choose, is the "light" by which you have chosen to interpret many other passages of scripture, such as the two I had the time to answer you about above.
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This is why I said that after this last post of yours addressed to me, I won't be debating this any longer - because the debate will endure until the Lord returns - because all those scriptures you bring up as "proof" of Amil, are no proof at all (proof in the minds of Amils only).
.. and you have to keep adjusting other things also - like placing the beast's ascension out of the abyss at a point in time
after the two witnesses - who are witnesses to Christ - have finished their testimony (instead of 3.5
years before their martyrdom, and 3.5
days before their resurrection from the dead and ascension into heaven, as the text states). You also need to have the beast of Revelation 13, which we are told rises from the sea, and the beast of Revelation 17, which we are told rises from the abyss, as different beasts.
There are too many things that we will continue to disagree on, and there's no point in my mind of continuing to debate it - because Amils will just keep claiming that the verses they quote after they have interpreted them in the "light" of Amil, "prove" Amil, even though Premils can see those verses do not prove Amil at all.
It forces the Premil believer to spend hours answering all the verses and points, attempting to show why the claims made by Amils are not true and their many assumptions incorrect - only to have anything that proves Amil to be a faulty doctrine inspired somewhere along the line in antiquity by human imagination, to be rejected outright, and no one ever gets anywhere - it's because Amils are blinded to the fact that they do not interpret scripture "in the light of scripture" - they believe they do, but they do not - because they indeed interpret all scripture in the "light" of Amil. So in the minds of Amils, "Scripture = Amil, therefore this is how this verse and this passage, and all scripture, must be understood".
