Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

[Spiritual Jew]

There are other passages that refer to another "age."
28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

That is the eternal age to come.

SovereignGrace has made a point: why did God not give us more on an entire 1000 years, if it is as premil says it will be? Such a question can only be answered when we arrive in heaven where will will know as we have been known.

Question: is eternity an "age?"

Sure. Why not? It's an age that will never end. Please read Luke 20:34-36 again. Jesus said that in the age to come people will not die. If that isn't speaking of eternity, I don't know what does.

Here are some verses that fit "hand in glove" so to speak with Revelation:

Zeh. 14:
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. When? Probably the battle of Armageddon, Rev. 19

4 And his feet shall stand in that day [probably the day of Armageddon] upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye [ye WHO? Without a doubt, JEWS in natural bodies] shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. [the same 24 hour day?] [Are these the living waters of Ezekiel, water too deep to cross?]

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one. [WHERE is He king? On earth - THIS earth, not the new one.]

10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. [There will be physical changes to the landscape.]

11 And men shall dwell in it [in Jerusalem - natural men?], and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. [it really sounds like natural men.]

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. [back to Armageddon.]

13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
[Armageddon]
14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance. [Armageddon]

15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
[Armageddon]
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left [natural people] of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.[This pretty much proves natural people. Resurrected people follow God's will.]

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. [This pretty much proves natural people. Resurrected people follow God's will.]

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

How do you reconcile that with your a-mill view? It sounds very much like the 1000 year reign. It follows Rev. But gives different information.

Keeping the feast of tabernacles involves performing animal sacrifices, so explain to me how you can reconcile that with Hebrews 8-10 which talks about how Christ ushered in the new covenant to replace the old covenant of animal sacrifices with His once for all sacrifice.

Do you not understand that to reinstitute animal sacrifices would be an act of blasphemy against Christ? The old covenant with its animal sacrifices were only a foreshadowing of Christ's sacrifice (Heb 10:1). There will never be any use for them again. So, it is impossible to interpret Zech 14 as speaking of the future.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

No.

Yes. You are mistaken.


.

Okay. This might be a lot to ask, but can you tell me what point you were making in that post, if you can remember what you said in it? Things are going very fast in this thread, so it might be hard to find it at this point.

 

[BABerean2]

Okay. This might be a lot to ask, but can you tell me what point you were making in that post, if you can remember what you said in it? Things are going very fast in this thread, so it might be hard to find it at this point.

Multiple Second Coming Visions in Revelation:


Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.

Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.

Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?

The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.



He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.



The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.



The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.



He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and we find the greatest earthquake in history in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial. How powerful is an earthquake which moves islands and destroys the mountains? What is happening to the planet?



He comes on a horse in chapter 19.



He comes with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1.

(The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)

There are no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46.

Revelation 9:14 proves some of the angels have already been bound in some manner.

Because the two witnesses were bodily resurrected from the dead in Revelation 11, the "first resurrection" at the beginning of Revelation 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the book.



The only way to properly interpret the book is through the principle of "Recapitulation".

.

 

[iamlamad]

Maybe literally a thousand times?

Yep. Although he recently told me that he changed his view of Rev 11 at some point and no longer believes the two witnesses are two individuals. So, you never know when he might break through that literal mindset.

It amazes me that, while premil does recognize symbols (not always), they think that the symbols have to resemble what they symbolize in reality. The dragon physically bound in a pit is one prime example.

If that was the proper way to interpret the symbolism then should we assume that, in reality, Satan resembles a dragon with seven heads and ten horns?

Even premils would say no to that, so why do they insist that a vision of a dragon with seven heads and ten horns being physically chained in a physical pit represents a spiritual being somehow being literally spiritually (or physically?) chained in a literal spiritual (or physical) pit? There's no reason to think a spiritual being like Satan can be chained up that way.

The dragon being chained in a pit only symbolically respresents the binding of Satan and is not meant to be understood as being literally bound with chains any more than Satan is meant to be understood as having seven heads and ten horns.

The dragon physically bound in a pit is one prime example...The dragon being chained in a pit only symbolically respresents the binding of Satan and is not meant to be understood as being literally bound with chains
I disagree. Spirit beings CAN be bound. Why would anyone think that the God that created such beings could not find a way to bind up such beings?

There is a corroborating scripture:

2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

What does the binding of Satan accomplish? "so that he should deceive the nations no more." Then for the 1000 years there is no rebellion against the King. But as soon as Satan is released to deceive again, what happens?
"and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle..." He immediately goes out to deceive again.

Question: how can anyone even imagine that Satan is not free to deceive today? Everywhere one looks today, they find deception.

Satan resembles a dragon with seven heads and ten horns? Every symbol has meaning. In the book of Revelation can we find a description of "7 heads:"
Rev. 17:
9 “Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. 10 There are also seven kings...

So this symbol has meaning, and it is the same meaning in every verse. It means KINGDOMS, each with a KING. But at the time Revelation was written, 5 of the 7 had past into history.

We can understand then, that Satan in his role as the power behind the Beast and False Prophet, is just repeating what he has done before: Use kings and kingdoms to try and destroy Israel. He used Egypt, he used Assyria, he used Babylon, he used Persia, and he used Greece. And he is going to repeat this again with the Beast. So, no, we don't really picture Satan as a being with 7 heads. We understand the meaning behind the 7 heads.

The 7 heads on the Beast have the same meaning: kings with kingdoms. In this case, not 5 ancient empires, one that existed in John's time, and one to come, but on the Beast the seven heads probably represent the 7 nations of which he becomes the 8th king.

...being physically chained in a physical pit represents a spiritual being somehow being literally spiritually (or physically?) chained in a literal spiritual (or physical) pit? The dragon is a real being, is he not? Don't be sidetracked by the 7 heads. He is still the devil. Chapter 12 was God introducing John to the dragon, being mentioned 32 times in that chapter - but in particular what the Dragon (the devil) would be doing in the last half of the 70th week: working with the Beast to destroy. Again, why would anyone think that the God who is all powerful can create a being who He (God) cannot bind?

There's no reason to think a spiritual being like Satan can be chained up that way.
The truth is, there is no reason to think he CANNOT be chained. God has successfully bound at least some of the fallen angels, again with chains. If they can be bound with chains, why not Satan? Note carefully, Peter does not use symbols.

Therefore I disagree with this post.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The dragon physically bound in a pit is one prime example...The dragon being chained in a pit only symbolically respresents the binding of Satan and is not meant to be understood as being literally bound with chains
I disagree. Spirit beings CAN be bound. Why would anyone think that the God that created such beings could not find a way to bind up such beings?

There is a corroborating scripture:

2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

What does the binding of Satan accomplish? "so that he should deceive the nations no more." Then for the 1000 years there is no rebellion against the King. But as soon as Satan is released to deceive again, what happens?
"and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle..." He immediately goes out to deceive again.

Question: how can anyone even imagine that Satan is not free to deceive today? Everywhere one looks today, they find deception.

Satan resembles a dragon with seven heads and ten horns? Every symbol has meaning. In the book of Revelation can we find a description of "7 heads:"
Rev. 17:
9 “Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. 10 There are also seven kings...

So this symbol has meaning, and it is the same meaning in every verse. It means KINGDOMS, each with a KING. But at the time Revelation was written, 5 of the 7 had past into history.

We can understand then, that Satan in his role as the power behind the Beast and False Prophet, is just repeating what he has done before: Use kings and kingdoms to try and destroy Israel. He used Egypt, he used Assyria, he used Babylon, he used Persia, and he used Greece. And he is going to repeat this again with the Beast. So, no, we don't really picture Satan as a being with 7 heads. We understand the meaning behind the 7 heads.

The 7 heads on the Beast have the same meaning: kings with kingdoms. In this case, not 5 ancient empires, one that existed in John's time, and one to come, but on the Beast the seven heads probably represent the 7 nations of which he becomes the 8th king.

...being physically chained in a physical pit represents a spiritual being somehow being literally spiritually (or physically?) chained in a literal spiritual (or physical) pit? The dragon is a real being, is he not? Don't be sidetracked by the 7 heads. He is still the devil. Chapter 12 was God introducing John to the dragon, being mentioned 32 times in that chapter - but in particular what the Dragon (the devil) would be doing in the last half of the 70th week: working with the Beast to destroy. Again, why would anyone think that the God who is all powerful can create a being who He (God) cannot bind?

There's no reason to think a spiritual being like Satan can be chained up that way.
The truth is, there is no reason to think he CANNOT be chained. God has successfully bound at least some of the fallen angels, again with chains. If they can be bound with chains, why not Satan? Note carefully, Peter does not use symbols.

Therefore I disagree with this post.

Binding Satan and spirits in Scripture always denoted spiritual restraint. It is not a hard concept to grasp. This binging started 2000 years ago. If you take the time to examine the gospels you will see it.

 

[Timtofly]

We are kings and priests of God now. Did you know that? Does that mean we perform priestly duties the way you would normally think of that? No. It has to do with our spiritual position of being in Christ's kingdom.

Those in Revelation 20, were dead. They were resurrected, they stood before thrones and judged, and they were not given sin nature bodies back to them. That would be insanity. They were given incorruptible bodies. They were not glorified, because they would still have offspring for 1000 years. This is not the church martyrs.

Per Amill, these people lived prior to the Cross in the OT. They died prior to the Cross. They were resurrected at the Cross at the same time Satan was bound. They are still alive today, and still having offspring. When Satan is loosed for a little season he plans on destroying these resurrected people who have been ruling on earth since the Cross. Unless you twist up Revelation 20 further and explain the chronology is backward instead of forward? Is the Cross at the end of the chapter or beginning of the chapter?

 

[Timtofly]

Wow! You actually acknowledge that he talks about what happens to unbelievers at that time! This is almost shocking. Most (all except you?) pretribs see 1 Thess 5 as being a completely different event happening at a different time than what 1 Thess 4:13-18 speaks about. So, you really do interpret it differently than other pretribs. I'm glad about that, at least, but you still believe in pretrib somehow. I'm honestly confused about that.

Yes, the rapture happens before the unbelievers are dealt with. I am surprised you think Paul's chronology is correct. Should not chapter 5 come before chapter 4 for it to fit post trib theology?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

No.

Yes. You are mistaken.


Multiple Second Coming Visions in Revelation:


Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.



He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.



The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.



The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.



He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and we find the greatest earthquake in history in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial. How powerful is an earthquake which moves islands and destroys the mountains? What is happening to the planet?



He comes on a horse in chapter 19.



He comes with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1.
(The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)
There are no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46.

Revelation 9:14 proves some of the angels have already been bound in some manner.

Because the two witnesses were bodily resurrected from the dead in Revelation 11, the "first resurrection" at the beginning of Revelation 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the book.



The only way to properly interpret the book is through the principle of "Recapitulation".

.

Great post. I agree with all of that. Thank you for clarifying your view. I apologize for misunderstanding what you were saying earlier and labeling it as partial preterist. Your reference to the city being built on seven hills is something partial preterists usually point out. I apologize for implying too much from that statement.

 

[DavidPT]

Okay. This might be a lot to ask, but can you tell me what point you were making in that post, if you can remember what you said in it? Things are going very fast in this thread, so it might be hard to find it at this point.

It looks like you all got it sorted out, so for future reference---In your post, what you have quoted by BABerean2, at the top of the quote to the right of "BABerean2 said', there is an arrow, and if you click on that it will take one to that post in particular.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Yes, the rapture happens before the unbelievers are dealt with. I am surprised you think Paul's chronology is correct. Should not chapter 5 come before chapter 4 for it to fit post trib theology?

No. What occurs in 1 Thess 5 happens "suddenly" and immediately after what is described in 1 Thess 4. That fits post-trib just fine, since they both describe what happens at the end of tribulation when Christ returns.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

It looks like you all got it sorted out, so for future reference---In your post, what you have quoted by BABerean2, at the top of the quote to the right of "BABerean2 said', there is an arrow, and if you click on that it will take one to that post in particular.

Okay, I didn't know that. I'm still learning how to navigate this site. Thanks for letting me know.

 

[Timtofly]

I feel the same way after I lay things out very simply. For example, when I show how 2 Peter 3 matches up with 1 Thess 5 and yet people like yourself somehow think Paul was talking about something besides global destruction.

Is Jesus coming back for the whole day, or just the last 2 seconds?

 

[Timtofly]

I recall reading an article some time ago, where the author pointed out that early Amils initially took the thousand years literal as well. But they didn't take it to mean after the 2nd coming. They applied it to this age and to the time they were currently living in. But after this literal thousand years came and went, eventually they revised their thinking on this, and then decided it's not meaning literal after all. Whether any of that is actually true or not, I'm not sure. Maybe other Amils might know if there is anything to that or not.

Are the Amil the original date setters?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Those in Revelation 20, were dead. They were resurrected, they stood before thrones and judged, and they were not given sin nature bodies back to them. That would be insanity. They were given incorruptible bodies. They were not glorified, because they would still have offspring for 1000 years. This is not the church martyrs.

Per Amill, these people lived prior to the Cross in the OT. They died prior to the Cross. They were resurrected at the Cross at the same time Satan was bound. They are still alive today, and still having offspring. When Satan is loosed for a little season he plans on destroying these resurrected people who have been ruling on earth since the Cross. Unless you twist up Revelation 20 further and explain the chronology is backward instead of forward? Is the Cross at the end of the chapter or beginning of the chapter?

For whatever reason you just don't understand anything I tell you and don't have any understanding of the amil view. It's fine if you disagree with it, but you don't even understand it. It's impossible to have a good discussion with someone who has no idea what I'm talking about (whether you agrere or not). And I don't know what you're talking about half the time, either. So be it. What can we do about that? I don't know. So, let's just agree to disagree.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Is Jesus coming back for the whole day, or just the last 2 seconds?

Is the day 24 hours or 1000 years? I believe 24 hours. The events Paul described in 1 Thess 4:13-5:6 and what Peter described in 2 Peter 3:3-13 happen within one 24 hour day, which is the day that Christ returns.

 

[iamlamad]

If the beast is a man then please explain how you interpret this verse:

Rev 17:8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

I don't think anyone thinks that way. Don't waste time making straw man arguments.

Natural sense? Is that how we are supposed to approach interpreting scripture, especially a book that undeniably contains a lot of symbolic language like Revelation?

1 Cor 2
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.

Of course it would.

But, what if Jesus meant for John 5:28-29 to be taken literally that there is one time (not two or more) coming when ALL of the dead will be raised? Where would that leave those who want to turn one future resurrection event into two or more resurrection events? Would it change how those same people would read other scripture?

What if Peter is meant to be taken literally when he says that the heavens and earth will be destroyed by fire at Christ's second coming (as he taught in 2 Peter 3:3-13)? Where would that leave those who think he forgot or neglected to mention a thousand year earthly millennial kingdom between Christ's coming and the destruction of the earth? Would it change how those same people read other scripture?

what if Jesus meant for John 5:28-29 to be taken literally that there is one time (not two or more) coming when ALL of the dead will be raised?
We already know that is impossible in light of other scriptures. There are going to be two different resurrections for two different groups of people. Why form doctrine from a single verse (telescope view) when we have many verses (microscope view)? Those verses in John 5 can certainly be taken another way. It is very difficult to take Revelation 20 as one single resurrection. It is also difficult to take what Paul wrote about the rapture and move it from before Wrath to after all wrath has finished.

If the beast is a man then please explain how you interpret this verse: So sorry, I should have been more explicit: the Beast in chapter 13 is a man, as is the second beast. This beast in Rev. 17 came up out of the pit, showing us it is the spirit behind the man beast. (No mere man has ever escaped from hell except our Lord Jesus.) (No straw man. I don't EVER make strawmen intentionally. I may accidentally.)

a book that undeniably contains a lot of symbolic language It also contains a lot of literal language. Just because there are symbols is no excuse to make literal things into symbolic things. Each reader would choose something different for every symbol. For example, a thousand years can most certainly be exactly one thousand years.

especially a book that undeniably contains a lot of symbolic language like Revelation? Sorry, but it seems like this is a sidestep for you. Just always say that one cannot understand Revelation because of a lot of symbolic language - when in fact, almost all of the symbolism is explained. Again I must ask, do you think God meant for us to understand this book - or not?

Do you explain away the river of life, because it comes from a book that undeniably contains a lot of symbolic language?

Do you explain away the river of life, because it comes from a book that undeniably contains a lot of symbolic language?

Do you explain away the streets of gold, because it comes from a book that undeniably contains a lot of symbolic language?

Do you explain away the city that lies foursquare, because it comes from a book that undeniably contains a lot of symbolic language?

I could post many more just like this. You see, it seems to me you use this as away to explain away anything that disagrees with your preconceived theories. I have not answer it yet, but did you not say that you symbolize the 42 months and 1260 days? I am not surprised, if you do, for they simply don't fit your theories. I understand, it is VERY difficult to read scripture and lay aside preconceptions.

What if Peter is meant to be taken literally when he says that the heavens and earth will be destroyed by fire at Christ's second coming
Let's look: 2 Peter 3:

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, [We surely agree on this: we see it daily!]

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
[We see this today also: many pastors today don't preach His coming.]
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. [People today certainly deny a worldwide flood. As for fire, did not Paul also say our works would be tried by fire? 1 Cor. 3:13...for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. Zeph 3:8 says "in the fire of my jealousy all the earth shall be consumed."

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. [God lives outside of time so does not see time as we see it.]

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. [He is still waiting for His harvest of Gentiles.]

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; [1 thes 5:2 the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.] in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, [sounds like the 6th seal] and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. [ this does not mean the earth disappears. It will be the surface of the earth that is cleansed for the millennial reign of Christ.]

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, [WE aught to believe what God's word says, even if written in Revelation.]

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? [What does it mean, "the heavens?" All the universe? Perhaps the solar system? NO one knows...
Someone in a vision saw people run out into the ocean because the land was burning, but then the ocean started burning! There was no where else for them to run.]

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

From Paul we know that our works will be tried. If all we ever do is earthly things, all will be burned up. But if we are led by the spirit and do spiritual works, they will survive. I have always believed the earth would be cleansed by fire. In other words, Peter's words should certainly be taken literally. Of course, I understand that if people can't believe Rev. 20, they see no need for fire to cleanse; my guess is, they would imagine this is not to be taken literally.

Where would that leave those who think he forgot or neglected to mention a thousand year earthly millennial kingdom The literal fire is the literal cleansing the earth will go through in preparation for the millennial kingdom. Where God will put PEOPLE while the earth is burning He has not said. I am sure He has it figured out.

God has not shown is everything that is to happen. We have the barest sketch of some things, and much information about other things: such as 9 chapters on the 70th week of Daniel. We have what we need.

 

[Timtofly]

The dragon being chained in a pit only symbolically respresents the binding of Satan and is not meant to be understood as being literally bound with chains any more than Satan is meant to be understood as having seven heads and ten horns.

It does not just say dragon. Why not just use one of the other names listed all the time? Perhaps interchange "the adversary" instead of "dragon"? The verse is just not symbolic mystery. John ties 5 different names to this one individual.
"2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan [the Adversary], and chained him up"

Is only being fixated on the symbolism even healthy? The fact that Satan is rendered useless is enough. Trying to figure out how useless is speculation no matter what theology one holds. Pre-Mill are not fixated on trying to figure out how useless Satan will be. We trust God gave us enough knowledge to accept it and move on in our spiritual growth.

Yes, I am passive aggressive, or so my psychiatrist claims. It is the way God created and formed my life.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Are the Amil the original date setters?

Maybe some were. Too bad there was no way for them to be around to find out i

The dragon physically bound in a pit is one prime example...The dragon being chained in a pit only symbolically respresents the binding of Satan and is not meant to be understood as being literally bound with chains
I disagree. Spirit beings CAN be bound. Why would anyone think that the God that created such beings could not find a way to bind up such beings?

There is a corroborating scripture:

2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

That is symbolic, also. Do you actually think that fallen angels are not able to roam around the earth right now? If so, I wonder how it is that people get demon possessed? If they were not able to do anything and were literally bound then how do you explain this:

Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

What does the binding of Satan accomplish? "so that he should deceive the nations no more." Then for the 1000 years there is no rebellion against the King. But as soon as Satan is released to deceive again, what happens?
"and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle..." He immediately goes out to deceive again.

Question: how can anyone even imagine that Satan is not free to deceive today? Everywhere one looks today, they find deception.

It's not just about deception in general, which we amils have explained many times. Have you not seen any of those times where we've explained our understanding of the binding of Satan? I'm tired of repeating it, honestly.

Satan resembles a dragon with seven heads and ten horns? Every symbol has meaning. In the book of Revelation can we find a description of "7 heads:"
Rev. 17:
9 “Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. 10 There are also seven kings...

So this symbol has meaning, and it is the same meaning in every verse. It means KINGDOMS, each with a KING. But at the time Revelation was written, 5 of the 7 had past into history.

Exactly. They have meaning but the meaning does not have to resemble the symbol. The dragon being cast into a pit is all symbolic. Of what? Satan being bound in a pit? No! Not anymore than the dragon having seven heads and ten horns means Satan has seven heads and ten horns. So, why do you read the description of Satan's binding that way?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

It does not just say dragon. Why not just use one of the other names listed all the time? Perhaps interchange "the adversary" instead of "dragon"? The verse is just not symbolic mystery. John ties 5 different names to this one individual.
"2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan [the Adversary], and chained him up"

Is only being fixated on the symbolism even healthy? The fact that Satan is rendered useless is enough. Trying to figure out how useless is speculation no matter what theology one holds. Pre-Mill are not fixated on trying to figure out how useless Satan will be.

That's the problem. By not caring to delve deeper into what that means exactly, premil ends up interpreting Rev 20 in such a way that contradicts many other passages of scripture.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

what if Jesus meant for John 5:28-29 to be taken literally that there is one time (not two or more) coming when ALL of the dead will be raised?
We already know that is impossible in light of other scriptures.

This is the way you interpret scripture? You just disregard straightforward passage like this in favor of other passages? If what you're saying was true then you should be able to explain why Jesus said one time is coming when all the dead will be raised rather than saying two (or more) times are coming when all of the dead will be raised. You need to be able to explain that instead of just dismissing the passage in favor of other passages.

If the beast is a man then please explain how you interpret this verse: So sorry, I should have been more explicit: the Beast in chapter 13 is a man, as is the second beast. This beast in Rev. 17 came up out of the pit, showing us it is the spirit behind the man beast. (No mere man has ever escaped from hell except our Lord Jesus.) (No straw man. I don't EVER make strawmen intentionally. I may accidentally.)

I don't see how there is any basis for interpreting the beast of Rev 17 as being different than the beast of Rev 13.

I don't have time to go over the rest of your post right now. Maybe later.