Law and Commandment vs Grace and Mercy

[Charlie24]

Soyeong, hears what you need to know, we all have to know this about the Law.

The difference between us and the Jews that lived under the Law is the Holy Spirit. They didn't have the indwelling Holy Spirit because sin had not yet been paid for by Christ at the Cross.

After the cross the Holy Spirit came to dwell in man. Now we no longer try our best to keep the Law, we place our faith in Christ that He will fulfill the Law in us. It's no longer by doing, it is by faith apart from the doing of the Law.

Being given the Law, the Jews quickly seen they were not able to keep the Law, that was the purpose of the Law. They found forgiveness for their short comings of trying to keep the Law by the sacrifice of an animal which represented the sacrifice of Christ.

By trying to keep Law as the Jews under the Law were forced to do, we who are now under Grace are denying the power of the Holy Spirit to fulfill the Law in us. We will be rejected by Christ for this.

 

[Soyeong]

If you are reading the Law, memorizing it or observing it in order to keep it, your faith in Christ is null and void, it will do you no good at all on judgement day. You will be judged by the Law, and you will be condemned.

Rom. 4:14
For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

If your faith is at all in keeping Law and Commandment, your faith is made of none effect by God.

There can be no 50% faith in Christ and 50% in keeping Law, or 75/25, or 99/1.

All your faith must be in Christ that He will fulfill the Law and Commandments in you by the Holy Spirit and not by your ability.

Christ will have all your faith or He will have none of it! Salvation cannot exist in both works and faith, one will cancel out the other!

Christ set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law and he did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced, so it doesn't make any sense to think that following Christ means that our faith in Christ is null and void, especially when he said in Matthew 23:23 that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept God's commandment are the same same as those who kept faith in Christ. The way to put our faith in God to guide us in not by refusing to follow His guidance. God fulfilling the righteous requirement in us through the lead of the Spirit looks like living in obedience to God's law in accordance with the example that Jesus set for us to follow.

God's law straightforwardly does what it was given to do and does not do what it was not given to do, so we are not made heirs to the promise by obeying His law because it was never given for that purpose, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't obey it for the purposes for which it was given. It is not as though the fact that we don't earn our inheritance of the promise by obeying God means that we don't need to obey God. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7, Nehemiah 9:13, and a law that isn't trustworthy can't come from a God who is trustworthy, so to put our faith in the law is to put our faith in the One who gave it, while refusing to put our faith in God's law is refusing to put our faith in the One who gave it. Every example of someone living by faith in the Bible is also an example of someone doing works that are an expression of their faith, such as with all of the examples listed in Hebrews 11, whereas disobedience to God's law is referred to as breaking faith, such as in Numbers 5:6. In Habakkuk 2:4, the righteous shall live by faith, and in Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law, so obedience to God's law is what living by faith looks like. Not one is living by faith ever contrasted with doing good works.

 

[Charlie24]

Christ set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law and he did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced, so it doesn't make any sense to think that following Christ means that our faith in Christ is null and void, especially when he said in Matthew 23:23 that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept God's commandment are the same same as those who kept faith in Christ. The way to put our faith in God to guide us in not by refusing to follow His guidance. God fulfilling the righteous requirement in us through the lead of the Spirit looks like living in obedience to God's law in accordance with the example that Jesus set for us to follow.

God's law straightforwardly does what it was given to do and does not do what it was not given to do, so we are not made heirs to the promise by obeying His law because it was never given for that purpose, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't obey it for the purposes for which it was given. It is not as though the fact that we don't earn our inheritance of the promise by obeying God means that we don't need to obey God. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7, Nehemiah 9:13, and a law that isn't trustworthy can't come from a God who is trustworthy, so to put our faith in the law is to put our faith in the One who gave it, while refusing to put our faith in God's law is refusing to put our faith in the One who gave it. Every example of someone living by faith in the Bible is also an example of someone doing works that are an expression of their faith, such as with all of the examples listed in Hebrews 11, whereas disobedience to God's law is referred to as breaking faith, such as in Numbers 5:6. In Habakkuk 2:4, the righteous shall live by faith, and in Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law, so obedience to God's law is what living by faith looks like. Not one is living by faith ever contrasted with doing good works.

If you can't understand or accept post#41, then you will just remain in the Law and be judged by the Law. It's as simple as that.

 

[Soyeong]

Soyeong, hears what you need to know, we all have to know this about the Law.

The difference between us and the Jews that lived under the Law is the Holy Spirit. They didn't have the indwelling Holy Spirit because sin had not yet been paid for by Christ at the Cross.

After the cross the Holy Spirit came to dwell in man. Now we no longer try our best to keep the Law, we place our faith in Christ that He will fulfill the Law in us. It's no longer by doing, it is by faith apart from the doing of the Law.

Being given the Law, the Jews quickly seen they were not able to keep the Law, that was the purpose of the Law. They found forgiveness for their short comings of trying to keep the Law by the sacrifice of an animal which represented the sacrifice of Christ.

By trying to keep Law as the Jews under the Law were forced to do, we who are now under Grace are denying the power of the Holy Spirit to fulfill the Law in us. We will be rejected by Christ for this.

The Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Torah (Ezekiel 36:26-27), the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth (John 16:13), and the Torah is truth (Psalms 119:142). Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, so he is the personification of the truth (John 14:6). In 2 Timothy 3:8, those who oppose Moses also oppose the truth, being of corrupted minds and disqualified in regard to the faith. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have carnal minds, who refuse to submit to the Torah. In Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as carnal works that are against the Spirit are also against the Torah, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. In Acts 5:32, the Spirit is given to those who obey God and not once is living by the Spirit ever treated as an alternative to living in obedience to God's law.

In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, God said that His law is not too difficult to keep, while not once does the Bible state that the law of given for the purpose of showing us that we are not able to keep it.

The view that we have of the law matches the view that we have of the Lawgiver for giving it. For example, God is trustworthy, therefore His Torah is also trustworthy. Likewise, a Torah that is holy, righteous, and good can only come from a God who is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12). The Psalms express an extremely positive view of the Torah, such as with David repeatedly saying that he loved it and delighted in obeying it, which certainly matched his view of the Lawgiver, so if we consider the Psalms to be Scripture and to therefore express a correct view of the Torah, then we will share it, as Paul did (Romans 7:22). Anything less than the view that we ought to delight in obeying the Torah is incompatible with the view that the Psalms are Scripture. For example, in Psalms 1:1-2, blessed are those who...delight in the law of the Lord and who meditate on it day and night. We can't believe in the truth of these verses while refusing to allow them to shape our view of God's law.

In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His Torah. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is what the Torah was given to instruct how to do. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. Strong's defines “grace” as "the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life" and when God's will is reflected in our lives, it takes the form of obedience to His Torah (Psalms 40:8). So grace is the power of God to overcome lawlessness in our lives and God graciously teaching us to obey His Torah is itself part of the content of His free gift of salvation.

If you can't understand or accept post#41, then you will just remain in the Law and be judged by the Law. It's as simple as that.

I didn't see post #41 until after I had posted.

Being judged by the law is far preferable to perishing apart from it.

 

[Charlie24]

The Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Torah (Ezekiel 36:26-27), the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth (John 16:13), and the Torah is truth (Psalms 119:142). Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, so he is the personification of the truth (John 14:6). In 2 Timothy 3:8, those who oppose Moses also oppose the truth, being of corrupted minds and disqualified in regard to the faith. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have carnal minds, who refuse to submit to the Torah. In Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as carnal works that are against the Spirit are also against the Torah, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. In Acts 5:32, the Spirit is given to those who obey God and not once is living by the Spirit ever treated as an alternative to living in obedience to God's law.

In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, God said that His law is not too difficult to keep, while not once does the Bible state that the law of given for the purpose of showing us that we are not able to keep it.

The view that we have of the law matches the view that we have of the Lawgiver for giving it. For example, God is trustworthy, therefore His Torah is also trustworthy. Likewise, a Torah that is holy, righteous, and good can only come from a God who is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12). The Psalms express an extremely positive view of the Torah, such as with David repeatedly saying that he loved it and delighted in obeying it, which certainly matched his view of the Lawgiver, so if we consider the Psalms to be Scripture and to therefore express a correct view of the Torah, then we will share it, as Paul did (Romans 7:22). Anything less than the view that we ought to delight in obeying the Torah is incompatible with the view that the Psalms are Scripture. For example, in Psalms 1:1-2, blessed are those who...delight in the law of the Lord and who meditate on it day and night. We can't believe in the truth of these verses while refusing to allow them to shape our view of God's law.

In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His Torah. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is what the Torah was given to instruct how to do. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. Strong's defines “grace” as "the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life" and when God's will is reflected in our lives, it takes the form of obedience to His Torah (Psalms 40:8). So grace is the power of God to overcome lawlessness in our lives and God graciously teaching us to obey His Torah is itself part of the content of His free gift of salvation.



I didn't see post #41 until after I had posted.

Being judged by the law is far preferable to perishing apart from it.

OK, if that's the way you see it, it's fine with me!

The Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Torah (Ezekiel 36:26-27), the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth (John 16:13), and the Torah is truth (Psalms 119:142). Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, so he is the personification of the truth (John 14:6). In 2 Timothy 3:8, those who oppose Moses also oppose the truth, being of corrupted minds and disqualified in regard to the faith. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have carnal minds, who refuse to submit to the Torah. In Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as carnal works that are against the Spirit are also against the Torah, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. In Acts 5:32, the Spirit is given to those who obey God and not once is living by the Spirit ever treated as an alternative to living in obedience to God's law.

In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, God said that His law is not too difficult to keep, while not once does the Bible state that the law of given for the purpose of showing us that we are not able to keep it.

The view that we have of the law matches the view that we have of the Lawgiver for giving it. For example, God is trustworthy, therefore His Torah is also trustworthy. Likewise, a Torah that is holy, righteous, and good can only come from a God who is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12). The Psalms express an extremely positive view of the Torah, such as with David repeatedly saying that he loved it and delighted in obeying it, which certainly matched his view of the Lawgiver, so if we consider the Psalms to be Scripture and to therefore express a correct view of the Torah, then we will share it, as Paul did (Romans 7:22). Anything less than the view that we ought to delight in obeying the Torah is incompatible with the view that the Psalms are Scripture. For example, in Psalms 1:1-2, blessed are those who...delight in the law of the Lord and who meditate on it day and night. We can't believe in the truth of these verses while refusing to allow them to shape our view of God's law.

In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His Torah. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is what the Torah was given to instruct how to do. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. Strong's defines “grace” as "the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life" and when God's will is reflected in our lives, it takes the form of obedience to His Torah (Psalms 40:8). So grace is the power of God to overcome lawlessness in our lives and God graciously teaching us to obey His Torah is itself part of the content of His free gift of salvation.



I didn't see post #41 until after I had posted.

Being judged by the law is far preferable to perishing apart from it.

Rom. 8:3-4
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

What was it that the Law could not do because it was weak by the flesh?

It couldn't save us because man (flesh was weak) could not keep it!

But what did Christ do by His death on the Cross?

He did what the Law could not do, He brought us salvation by faith.

 

[Soyeong]

OK, if that's the way you see it, it's fine with me!


Rom. 8:3-4
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

What was it that the Law could not do because it was weak by the flesh?

It couldn't save us because man (flesh was weak) could not keep it!

But what did Christ do by His death on the Cross?

He did what the Law could not do, He brought us salvation by faith.

The law could not set us free from sin, but sin is the transgression of God's law, so living in obedience to God's law is what being saving from living in sin looks like. It notably does not say that man could not keep the law. God said in Deuteronomy 30:11-14 that His law is not too difficult to obey, so you can either have faith in what he said or call Him a liar. The righteous requirement of the law is obedience so when the righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled in us that looks like living in obedience to it. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to God's law. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to free us from any laws, but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law, so salvation from living in transgression of the law looks like living in obedience to the law through faith.

 

[a-lily-of-peace]

The law could not set us free from sin, but sin is the transgression of God's law, so living in obedience to God's law is what being saving from living in sin looks like. It notably does not say that man could not keep the law. God said in Deuteronomy 30:11-14 that His law is not too difficult to obey, so you can either have faith in what he said or call Him a liar. The righteous requirement of the law is obedience so when the righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled in us that looks like living in obedience to it. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to God's law. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to free us from any laws, but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law, so salvation from living in transgression of the law looks like living in obedience to the law through faith.

Do you offer the sacrifices commanded in Numbers 28-29?

 

[Soyeong]

Do you offer the sacrifices commanded in Numbers 28-29?

No, I have not been commanded to do that seeing as how I am not a Levitical priest and there is no temple. Even when the Torah was first given to Moses, there wasn't a single person who was required to obey every single law, and not even Jesus obeyed the laws in regard to have a period or to giving birth. Some laws were only for the King, the High Priest, priests, judges, men, women, children, widows, those who are married, those with servants, those with animals, those with crops, those with tzaraat, those living in the land, and to those who were strangers living among them, while others were given to everyone. The Israelites were given laws that guided what they should do once they are entered the land before they had entered it. When the Israelites were in exile in Babylon, the condition for their return was to first return to obedience to the Torah, which required them to have access to a temple that they didn't have access to while they were in exile, so there is nothing wrong with not following a law that has a condition that has not been met, but we should be faithful to obey as much as we can. A good portion of the laws were in regard to temple practice, which those who were not Levities were not permitted to follow. There is nothing wrong with not following God's command to keep the 7th day holy while the condition that it is the 7th day is not met.

So understanding how the Torah applies to us today is a matter of careful study, prayer, and leading of the Spirit. However, if we believe that God can be trusted to guide us in how to rightly live and that his laws are for our own good in order to bless us (Psalms 19:7, Nehemiah 9:13, Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13), then we will have the attitude of looking for reasons for why we get to have the delight of obeying God's laws rather than the attitude of looking for excuses to avoid following God's guidance. David said repeatedly throughout the Psalms that he loved the Torah and delighted in obeying it, so if we consider the Psalms to be Scripture and to therefore express a correct view of the Torah, then we will share it, as Paul did (Romans 7:22). Anything less than the view that we ought to delight in obeying the Torah is incompatible with the view that the Psalms are Scripture. For example, in Psalms 1:1-2, blessed are those who...delight in the Torah of the Lord and who meditate on it day and night. We believe in the truth of these words while not allowing them to shape our view of the Torah.

 

[Junia]

To the self-righteous Jew, Jesus said, you have heard that whosoever shall murder is in danger of the judgement, but I say, whoever is angry with his brother without cause is in danger of the judgement.

Jesus just placed anger without cause on the same level as murder!

He also said, you have heard you shall not commit adultery, but I say whoever looks on a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery in his heart.

So guys, if you have ever seen an outrageously beautiful woman and for one split second lusted after her, you are guilty of all the Law and commandments. You are condemned.

This is how intense Law and commandment is, do you think you can keep it?

There is no mercy in Law and commandment, whether it be the Law of Moses or the commandments of Christ, which is an extension of the Law. If you are guilty of one, you are guilty of all and condemned.

If you are trying to gain or retain salvation by keeping Law in any form, and that includes the commandments of Christ, you will fail and be condemned.

There will only be grace and mercy for sinful man by faith in Jesus Christ and His finished work alone.

So true

 

[Yarddog]

To the self-righteous Jew, Jesus said, you have heard that whosoever shall murder is in danger of the judgement, but I say, whoever is angry with his brother without cause is in danger of the judgement.

Jesus just placed anger without cause on the same level as murder!

He also said, you have heard you shall not commit adultery, but I say whoever looks on a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery in his heart.

So guys, if you have ever seen an outrageously beautiful woman and for one split second lusted after her, you are guilty of all the Law and commandments. You are condemned.

This is how intense Law and commandment is, do you think you can keep it?

There is no mercy in Law and commandment, whether it be the Law of Moses or the commandments of Christ, which is an extension of the Law. If you are guilty of one, you are guilty of all and condemned.

If you are trying to gain or retain salvation by keeping Law in any form, and that includes the commandments of Christ, you will fail and be condemned.

There will only be grace and mercy for sinful man by faith in Jesus Christ and His finished work alone.

There is only one way to find righteousness and that is through faith. God gives his Holy Spirit to his children through baptism and it is following that Spirit that we are cleansed of the desire to disobey.

 

[fhansen]

To the self-righteous Jew, Jesus said, you have heard that whosoever shall murder is in danger of the judgement, but I say, whoever is angry with his brother without cause is in danger of the judgement.

Jesus just placed anger without cause on the same level as murder!

He also said, you have heard you shall not commit adultery, but I say whoever looks on a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery in his heart.

So guys, if you have ever seen an outrageously beautiful woman and for one split second lusted after her, you are guilty of all the Law and commandments. You are condemned.

This is how intense Law and commandment is, do you think you can keep it?

There is no mercy in Law and commandment, whether it be the Law of Moses or the commandments of Christ, which is an extension of the Law. If you are guilty of one, you are guilty of all and condemned.

If you are trying to gain or retain salvation by keeping Law in any form, and that includes the commandments of Christ, you will fail and be condemned.

There will only be grace and mercy for sinful man by faith in Jesus Christ and His finished work alone.

The New Covenant is about change in us, new creations wrought by God, whereas the OC was about us, as we are, attempting to be righteous on our own. But as Jesus tells us, "Apart from Me you can do nothing." Adam thought otherwise but we're here to learn that very lesson-of how much we need God, of how wrong Adam was.

Jesus wants us to know that we must be clean not merely on the outside-which is just a pretense of righteousness anyway, but on the inside first of all. In Christianity love is the epitome of man's justice or righteousness, and it constitutes that very internal cleanliness that excludes sin and fulfills the law and does right by its nature. And this is why the Greatest Commandments are what they are. God did not create sin or sinners after all, but we need Him, direct fellowship with Him in order to begin to be who we were created to be. Man was made for communion with God and he exists in a lost, "dead", disordered, and unjust state to the extent that he's spiritually separated from Him. But with Him, He will place His law in our minds and write it on our hearts (Jer 31:33). God, alone, can justify man. And from our perspective this begins with the gift of faith, which is the entranceway to relationship with Him.

 

[a-lily-of-peace]

No, I have not been commanded to do that seein as how I am not a Levitical priest and there is no temple. Even when the Torah was first given to Moses, there wasn't a single person who was required to obey every single law, and not even Jesus obeyed the laws in regard to have a period or to giving birth. Some laws were only for the King, the High Priest, priests, judges, men, women, children, widows, those who are married, those with servants, those with animals, those with crops, those with tzaraat, those living in the land, and to those who were strangers living among them, while others were given to everyone. The Israelites were given laws that guided what they should do once they are entered the land before they had entered it. When the Israelites were in exile in Babylon, the condition for their return was to first return to obedience to the Torah, which required them to have access to a temple that they didn't have access to while they were in exile, so there is nothing wrong with not following a law that has a condition that has not been met, but we should be faithful to obey as much as we can. A good portion of the laws were in regard to temple practice, which those who were not Levities were not permitted to follow. There is nothing wrong with not following God's command to keep the 7th day holy while the condition that it is the 7th day is not met.

So understanding how the Torah applies to us today is a matter of careful study, prayer, and leading of the Spirit. However, if we believe that God can be trusted to guide us in how to rightly live and that his laws are for our own good in order to bless us (Psalms 19:7, Nehemiah 9:13, Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13), then we will have the attitude of looking for reasons for why we get to have the delight of obeying God's laws rather than the attitude of looking for excuses to avoid following God's guidance. David said repeatedly throughout the Psalms that he loved the Torah and delighted in obeying it, so if we consider the Psalms to be Scripture and to therefore express a correct view of the Torah, then we will share it, as Paul did (Romans 7:22). Anything less than the view that we ought to delight in obeying the Torah is incompatible with the view that the Psalms are Scripture. For example, in Psalms 1:1-2, blessed are those who...delight in the Torah of the Lord and who meditate on it day and night. We believe in the truth of these words while not allowing them to shape our view of the Torah.

The commandment for the sacrifices in Numbers wasn’t given only to the priests, it was given to the “children of Israel” as written in the text. The Levites didn’t have the land needed to raise animals for sacrifice (their portion was service to God meaning they had no land inheritance) so the sacrifices were brought by the people for the priests to sacrifice.

You’re right that there is no physical temple though. Anyone who studies Torah will tell you that it’s physically impossible to keep the whole law today, yet you did say that you are able to do so (post #28 you said “Indeed, I am one of countless people who can keep the law”). Now you say you actually keep how you believe it applies to you but that is not the same as keeping the law it as it is written.

Have you considered that it might be the Lord’s will that there is no way to keep the entire law of Moses?

This was not an act of man:

And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split
(Matthew 27:50-51, NKJV)

Torah doesn’t only mean “law,” it also means teaching. The law of Moses is referred to as a tutor. There’s nothing wrong with looking to a tutor for guidance but there are other teachings, for example the letter to the Hebrews, which show why it would actually be wrong to offer the sacrifices commanded under the law of Moses. In that I believe it’s a grace of God that we are prevented from doing so.


For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying,“This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you.” Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry. And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.
Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
(Hebrews 9:19-28, NKJV)

For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
(Hebrews 10:1-4, NKJV)

Previously saying,“Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), then He said,“Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
(Hebrews 10:8-14, NKJV)

 

[Soyeong]

The commandment for the sacrifices in Numbers wasn’t given only to the priests, it was given to the “children of Israel” as written in the text. The Levites didn’t have the land needed to raise animals for sacrifice (their portion was service to God meaning they had no land inheritance) so the sacrifices were brought by the people for the priests to sacrifice.

You’re right that there is no physical temple though. Anyone who studies Torah will tell you that it’s physically impossible to keep the whole law today, yet you did say that you are able to do so (post #28 you said “Indeed, I am one of countless people who can keep the law”). Now you say you actually keep how you believe it applies to you but that is not the same as keeping the law it as it is written.

Have you considered that it might be the Lord’s will that there is no way to keep the entire law of Moses?

This was not an act of man:

And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split
(Matthew 27:50-51, NKJV)

Torah doesn’t only mean “law,” it also means teaching. The law of Moses is referred to as a tutor. There’s nothing wrong with looking to a tutor for guidance but there are other teachings, for example the letter to the Hebrews, which show why it would actually be wrong to offer the sacrifices commanded under the law of Moses. In that I believe it’s a grace of God that we are prevented from doing so.


For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying,“This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you.” Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry. And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.
Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
(Hebrews 9:19-28, NKJV)

For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
(Hebrews 10:1-4, NKJV)

Previously saying,“Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), then He said,“Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
(Hebrews 10:8-14, NKJV)

Do you think that everyone in Israel offered a daily offering? How much cattle do you think that they had?

The Torah was given to a community and can only be fully obeyed as part of a community. As I mentioned, there were laws that were specifically given to people with certain roles. For instance, there were laws where people needed to go to priests, which required there to be both priests and non-priests. Even within the priesthood, there were people with different roles. So the Torah as written has always applied differently with respect to the people and the conditions, but that is what I seek by faith to do. Again, when the Israelites were in exile in Babylon, the condition for them to return to the land was to first return to obedience to the Torah, which they were not full capable of doing while they were exile, but they nevertheless still returned from exile because they were faithful to do all that they could do.

In Matthew 27:50-51, it does not state or imply anything about not being able to obey the Torah. Someone who disregarded what there tutor taught them after they left would be missing the whole point of a tutor. A student who graduates from the 1st grade moves on to a superior teacher, but their new teaching doesn't tell them to disregard what they were previously taught, but rather they build up it. A student does not move on to Algebra by disregarding what they were taught about addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. In Psalms 119:29, God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey His law, not by preventing us from obeying it.

 

[a-lily-of-peace]

Do you think that everyone in Israel offered a daily offering? How much cattle do you think that they had?

The Torah was given to a community and can only be fully obeyed as part of a community. As I mentioned, there were laws that were specifically given to people with certain roles. For instance, there were laws where people needed to go to priests, which required there to be both priests and non-priests. Even within the priesthood, there were people with different roles. So the Torah as written has always applied differently with respect to the people and the conditions, but that is what I seek by faith to do. Again, when the Israelites were in exile in Babylon, the condition for them to return to the land was to first return to obedience to the Torah, which they were not full capable of doing while they were exile, but they nevertheless still returned from exile because they were faithful to do all that they could do.

In Matthew 27:50-51, it does not state or imply anything about not being able to obey the Torah. Someone who disregarded what there tutor taught them after they left would be missing the whole point of a tutor. A student who graduates from the 1st grade moves on to a superior teacher, but their new teaching doesn't tell them to disregard what they were previously taught, but rather they build up it. A student does not move on to Algebra by disregarding what they were taught about addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. In Psalms 119:29, God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey His law, not by preventing us from obeying it.

The Apostles' letters are in fact the torah (teaching) of God and they do in fact teach to disregard previous things. See what was written to the Hebrews -- He takes away the first that He may establish the second.

Matthew 27:50-51 implies not being able to obey the Torah of Moses because God Himself destroyed what he commanded the people to make in Exodus 26:31-33. The letter to the Hebrews expands on this by showing that the yearly atonement sacrifice in the holy of holies in the temple is a physical shadow of the perpetual atonement sacrifice Christ made, and as that veil tore so did any separation between one physical place and another physical place -- that was no longer the kapporet to bring the blood each year.

I wouldn't eat pork if we ate together or suggest to go to buy groceries on a Saturday because if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. (Romans 14:15). But I hope you would not, having accepted Christ for atonement of your sins, hope instead to return to a physical temple in physical Jerusalem on earth to offer the blood of an animal after that, because you think the law would require it of you. I've kept the sabbath and kept to eating clean foods and it was only when I started to understand the feast days that I knew the old elements have passed away. The flesh I put in my flesh will both return to the dust, and the spirit by which I keep the sabbath is the spirit by which I should keep every day. Not that I am perfect, only being perfected by the grace of God.

I do understand what you mean about feeling like we are in exile:

For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.
(Hebrews 11:14-16)

For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children—but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
(Galatians 4:24-26)

 

[SANTOSO]

To the self-righteous Jew, Jesus said, you have heard that whosoever shall murder is in danger of the judgement, but I say, whoever is angry with his brother without cause is in danger of the judgement.

Jesus just placed anger without cause on the same level as murder!

He also said, you have heard you shall not commit adultery, but I say whoever looks on a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery in his heart.

So guys, if you have ever seen an outrageously beautiful woman and for one split second lusted after her, you are guilty of all the Law and commandments. You are condemned.

This is how intense Law and commandment is, do you think you can keep it?

There is no mercy in Law and commandment, whether it be the Law of Moses or the commandments of Christ, which is an extension of the Law. If you are guilty of one, you are guilty of all and condemned.

If you are trying to gain or retain salvation by keeping Law in any form, and that includes the commandments of Christ, you will fail and be condemned.

There will only be grace and mercy for sinful man by faith in Jesus Christ and His finished work alone.

Yes, it is true that nobody can keep the Law of Moses and the commandments of Christ using his own strength !
But you can keep the law of Moses and the commandments of Christ if you rely on God’s strength !

If you are angry with your brothers or sisters , usually something that he/she has said, done, or looked — that make you upset, disappointed, offended, or even felt mistreated!

what would the Lord say ? Forgive ! Just as the Lord have forgiven you.
If you know and have tasted the Lord’s mercy, you know He forgive because He love you much.

If you aren’t able to forgive your brothers and sisters, it means that you don’t have the strength to forgive or the capacity to forgive. Why? you haven’t loved the Lord much !

that is why the first commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength.

Because you haven’t loved the Lord much — by telling Him that you love Him because He is the light of the world.
That is why when you hate your brothers/ sisters, you still are in darkness.

When you have loved the Lord much because He is savior of love, He is your Redeemer, He is your fortress, He is your strength, etc !

Your love grows because you remember His wonderful deeds, His steadfast love, His faithfulness, His strength, His joy, His wisdom, His righteousness, etc.

Then you have the strength to forgive those who wrong you. It is natural that you can walk in obedience in Christ. Why you always set your eyes on Him and your mind is set on the things of the Spirit, that is, His strength, His steadfast love, His victories, etc.

About that outrageously beautiful woman ! Well, we are told to put on the new self created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

This is what we have heard:
But the LORD said to Samuel, "For the LORD sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the LORD looks on the heart." -1 Samuel 16:7

For everyone who has been BORN OF GOD OVERCOMES THE WORLD. And this is the victory that has overcome the world'our faith. -1 John 5:4

If many are born of God and partaker of God’s nature, many shall be able to overcome the world.

Why many can’t?
assuming that you have heard about Him and were taught in Him, as the truth is in Jesus, -Ephesians 4:21
to PUT OFF YOUR OLD SELF, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through DECEITFUL DESIRES, -Ephesians 4:22

It is obvious that many self proclaimed Christians have not repented !
God is not waiting for many just to say sorry only but change their lifestyle, that is, to put off the old self.

Of course, they can’t because they will slip back to sin again! Why ? Because they have relied on their strength. What God have said about that?

Thus says the LORD: "Cursed is the man who trusts in man and makes flesh his strength, whose heart turns away from the LORD. -Jeremiah 17:5

When you consider this, you find that many self righteous Christians are cursed !
How can we not be cursed ? Rely on God’s strength!
That is why God give strength to His people,
as it is written:
May the LORD GIVE STRENGTH to His people! May the LORD bless his people with peace! -Psalms 29:11

When you are found in God’s strength, this is what we have heard:

be found in Him, NOT HAVING A RIGHTEOUSNESS OF MY OWN that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith- Philippians 3:9

When you are considering to look at outrageously beautiful woman to lust after her, consider what Heavenly Father have spoken in proverbs:

Why should you be intoxicated, MY SON, with a forbidden woman and embrace the bosom of an adulteress? -Proverbs 5:20
For a man's ways are before the eyes of the LORD, and he ponders all his paths. -Proverbs 5:21
The iniquities of the wicked ensnare him, and he is held fast in the cords of his sin. -Proverbs 5:22
He dies for lack of discipline, and because of his great folly he is led astray. -Proverbs 5:23

 

[Saint Steven]

In verse nineteen, Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them, the shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Talking about building up spiritual faith.) There are some who teach men and they have less spirit from the kingdom of Heaven because lack of faith. There are some who teach men to build up their spiritual faith to have peace in the kingdom of heaven.

Thanks for your post. I picked this paragraph to respond to. About verse nineteen. (Matt.5)

The question is, what is Jesus referring to when he says, "these least commandments"?
- Is he referring to the law that God gave to Israel through Moses?
- Which commandments (commands) are considered "least"?
- Is he referring to the Beatitudes that he just gave prior to saying this? They aren't really commandments.
- Or is he referring to what he is about to say concerning both the law and his own commandments (commands)?
- Remember, he says here that those who teach these "least" commandments (commands) will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Interestingly, he goes on to treat the law as hearsay, and then replaces it with his own commands. There are five, "You have heard that it was said... but I tell you..." statements. Each one replaces part of the law. ("but" = contrast/replacement)

Some claim it made the law more binding. I don't see it that way. The Apostle Paul goes a long way to explain that we are not under the law. And Jesus ministry is full of events that challenge the law. Beginning right in this chapter.

 

[Saint Steven]

And if the Apostle Paul's position on the law is uncertain, he makes it clear in the scripture below. Whereas some may say Paul is only against the law of Moses, as if that law was not given by God (it was), he addresses the Ten Commandments, which everyone should agree was given by God. This assumes that the Ten Commandments were engraved in letters on stone.

According to the Apostle Paul, the ten Commandments (which were engraved in letters on stone) were the transitory ministry that brought condemnation and death which has no glory now. Other than that, totally awesome. - lol

2 Corinthians 3:6-11
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

 

[Charlie24]

Thanks for your post. I picked this paragraph to respond to. About verse nineteen. (Matt.5)

The question is, what is Jesus referring to when he says, "these least commandments"?
- Is he referring to the law that God gave to Israel through Moses?
- Which commandments (commands) are considered "least"?
- Is he referring to the Beatitudes that he just gave prior to saying this? They aren't really commandments.
- Or is he referring to what he is about to say concerning both the law and his own commandments (commands)?
- Remember, he says here that those who teach these "least" commandments (commands) will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Interestingly, he goes on to treat the law as hearsay, and then replaces it with his own commands. There are five, "You have heard that it was said... but I tell you..." statements. Each one replaces part of the law. ("but" = contrast/replacement)

Some claim it made the law more binding. I don't see it that way. The Apostle Paul goes a long way to explain that we are not under the law. And Jesus ministry is full of events that challenge the law. Beginning right in this chapter.

Steven, you raise a very important question! I would like to stick my nose in and give my two cents worth.

Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit and therefore had no sin nature as we have. He was not only perfect in deed, he was perfect in thought. He never had an impure thought.

HIs commandments added nothing new to the Law itself, they brought a new dimension to the full understanding of the Law, not previously known to man, that is, you are not only guilty of breaking Law by your deeds, you are guilty also by thought.

I disagree with many in this thread that the believer can keep the Law. Being that we are guilty of breaking Law by thought it is impossible for mortal man to keep it.

The Grace of God is known for giving us something we don't deserve, salvation through faith. What is not talked about is that Grace also gives a perfect standing in the sight of God, when in reality we are far from perfect.

It is my opinion that "the least of commandments" is a metaphor, meaning you can't keep the Law. In the same verse Jesus said "but whosoever shall do and teach them will be called great in the Kingdom of God." This is also a metaphor which pictures our standing in Christ, we are Law-keepers in the sight of God through Grace but not in reality.

We will only be Law-keepers in reality at the resurrection, the mortal shall put on immortality.

 

[Saint Steven]

It is my opinion that "the least of commandments" is a metaphor, meaning you can't keep the Law. In the same verse Jesus said "but whosoever shall do and teach them will be called great in the Kingdom of God." This is also a metaphor which pictures our standing in Christ, we are Law-keepers in the sight of God through Grace but not in reality.

Thanks for your awesome reply. I appreciate it. (I still love you)

How does what you are saying here square with what the Apostle Paul teaches about the law?

Galatians 5:4
You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

 

[Charlie24]

Thanks for your awesome reply. I appreciate it. (I still love you)

How does what you are saying here square with what the Apostle Paul teaches about the law?

Galatians 5:4
You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

I love you too, Steven. Even though we disagree on some things you are still my brother in Christ.

Paul is very bold, making many statements that have made the hair stand up on the back of my neck. This is just one example in Gal. 5:4.

Jesus has told us by His deeper understanding of the Law that we can't keep it, only by Grace through faith can we find mercy that the Law will not condemn us.

Paul is telling us here the same as Jesus told us, you cannot be justified by the deeds of the Law, those who seek to do so are fallen from Grace, no longer saved. Seeking to keep the Law on our own ability or as in this case, those who have accepted Christ and now adding Law to faith, have cancelled Grace.

Rom. 4:14,
For if they which are of the Law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect.