Law and Commandment vs Grace and Mercy

[a-lily-of-peace]

In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from the Torah, so you should be quicker to think that someone needs to repent from their sins than to follow anyone who you think was teaching to disregard previous things. Likewise, in Deuteronomy 13:4-5, the way that God instructed His people to determine that someone was a false prophet who was not speaking for Him was if they taught against obeying the Torah, so God simply did not leave any room for His people to follow anyone who does that. The bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, so you should be quicker to disregard everything that any man had said than to disregard anything that God has commanded, but that is not what they were doing.

Paul was not a false prophet and an enemy of God, so you shouldn't interpret what he said in a way that makes him out to be one. The topic of Romans 14 stated in the first verse is in regard to handle disputable matters of option, not in regard to whether followers of God should follow God, so nothing in the chapter should be interpreted as saying that obedience to what God has commanded is optional.

God did not command to keep the Sabbath on every day, but rather he commanded to keep the 7th day holy, so you should not act like you know better than God how He wants to be worshipped. Something that is holy is set apart and in order for there to be something that is set apart, there needs to also be something else that it is set apart from, so to treat every day as the same is to treat none of them as holy. If we did on every day what God wants us to do on the Sabbath, then we would do no work, but God also wants us to work.

”Something that is holy is set apart and in order for there to be something that is set apart, there needs to also be something else that it is set apart from, so to treat every day as the same is to treat none of them as holy. If we did on every day what God wants us to do on the Sabbath, then we would do no work, but God also wants us to work.”

It becomes a matter of being set apart from the world, from our selves, of striving to enter God’s rest to cease from our own work and do his will. The question is less about whether you rest from your own works on one day but whether you continue in your own works on the other six.

Striving to enter that rest is crucifying the flesh, dying to yourself and putting everything in alignment with God’s will.

“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
(Exodus 20:8-11, NKJV)

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”
Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
(John 5:16-18, NKJV)

For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
(John 6:38, NKJV)

Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:
“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ”
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way:“And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”
Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, again He designates a certain day, saying in David,“Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:
“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”
For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
(Hebrews 4:1-10, NKJV)

Bondservants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh, not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but in sincerity of heart, fearing God. And whatever you do, do it heartily, as to the Lord and not to men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance; for you serve the Lord Christ. But he who does wrong will be repaid for what he has done, and there is no partiality.
(Colossians 3:22-25, NKJV)

 

[Saint Steven]

Jesus did not deconstruct the Law, my friend.

It actually started with John the Baptist. "... until John." Then what?

Matthew 11:13
For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John.

 

[Soyeong]

It actually started with John the Baptist. "... until John." Then what?

Matthew 11:13
For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John.

In Luke 16:16-18, Jesus said that the Torah was until John and that since then the Gospel of the Kingdom has been preached, namely to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand, so the fact that he was speaking about the Torah still being taught after John means that he was not speaking about it ending with him. Furthermore, Jesus went on in verses 17-18 to teach obedience to the Torah and to say that it would be easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for the least part to disappear from the Torah, so he was not speaking about a law that he thought had already ended. Lastly, neither John or Jesus taught people to stop repenting from their sins, but just the opposite.

 

[Saint Steven]

In Luke 16:16-18, Jesus said that the Torah was until John and that since then the Gospel of the Kingdom has been preached, namely to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand, so the fact that he was speaking about the Torah still being taught after John means that he was not speaking about it ending with him. Furthermore, Jesus went on in verses 17-18 to teach obedience to the Torah and to say that it would be easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for the least part to disappear from the Torah, so he was not speaking about a law that he thought had already ended. Lastly, neither John or Jesus taught people to stop repenting from their sins, but just the opposite.

Luke 24:44
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

 

[Soyeong]

Luke 24:44
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

NAS Greek Lexicon pleroo (2c3)

1. to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment

 

[Charlie24]

It actually started with John the Baptist. "... until John." Then what?

Matthew 11:13
For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John.

All the prophets, with John being the last, prophesied of the coming Christ.

There was no deconstruction of the Law, the Law itself prophesied of the coming Christ by the sacrifice.

When Christ came He fulfilled the Law completely, He didn't deconstruct.

The Law was now obsolete, it had accomplished its purpose and the Old was replaced with the New.

 

[Saint Steven]

NAS Greek Lexicon pleroo (2c3)

1. to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment

Part of the problem here is how we define the terms, "the law" and "the Law". (capital L)

The NIV translation helps us to better understand this by capitalizing the L and P when it refers to the Books of the Law and the Books of the Prophets. Examples below. Make special note of Romans 3:21, where the terms are used both ways, as "the law" and as "the Law and the Prophets". (the books)

John 1:45
Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”

Acts 13:15
After the reading from the Law and the Prophets, the leaders of the synagogue sent word to them, saying, “Brothers, if you have a word of exhortation for the people, please speak.”

Romans 3:21
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

 

[Saint Steven]

All the prophets, with John being the last, prophesied of the coming Christ.

There was no deconstruction of the Law, the Law itself prophesied of the coming Christ by the sacrifice.

When Christ came He fulfilled the Law completely, He didn't deconstruct.

The Law was now obsolete, it had accomplished its purpose and the Old was replaced with the New.

See my post #107 above about defining "the law" and "the Law". (two different things)

Here's just one example of Jesus' work to deconstruct the law. See scripture below.
It begins by saying, "... because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath..."

I mentioned earlier that the most basic violation of Sabbath rest was to work on the Sabbath. See the Ten Commandments. No work of any kind. Even food was prepared the previous day. Called the Preparation Day.

In this case, Jesus admitted the working part. Which was kind of a backwards "defense".

John 5:16-18
So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath,
the Jewish leaders began to persecute him.
17 In his defense Jesus said to them,
“My Father is always at his work to this very day,
and I too am working.”
18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him;
not only was he breaking the Sabbath,
but he was even calling God his own Father,
making himself equal with God.

 

[Saint Steven]

@Charlie24
The various acts (I have a whole list) of deconstructing the law was completed in the atonement. Jesus once and for all set aside the law with its commands and regulations. He put to death their hostility. (the law was the ministry of condemnation and death --- See 2 Corinthians 3:6-11)

Ephesians 2:14-16
For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

 

[Charlie24]

@Charlie24
The various acts (I have a whole list) of deconstructing the law was completed in the atonement. Jesus once and for all set aside the law with its commands and regulations. He put to death their hostility. (the law was the ministry of condemnation and death --- See 2 Corinthians 3:6-11)

Ephesians 2:14-16
For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

The 2 groups spoken of here are the Jews and the Gentiles. They were divided by the Law (the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility).

By Jesus "setting aside in His flesh the Law with its commands and regulations" the Jew and Gentile became one by faith in Christ, this is the Church Paul is speaking of. Made up of both Jew and Gentile.

Jesus set aside the Law with its commands and regulations by fulfilling its demands for us.

Jesus did not break down or deconstruct the Law, He broke down the hostility between the Jew and Gentile caused by the Law, He did this by keeping the Law perfectly which satisfied its demands.

Now that He has done this the Jew and Gentile can become one in Christ by faith, not by the Law that created the hostility.

 

[Soyeong]

Part of the problem here is how we define the terms, "the law" and "the Law". (capital L)

The NIV translation helps us to better understand this by capitalizing the L and P when it refers to the Books of the Law and the Books of the Prophets. Examples below. Make special note of Romans 3:21, where the terms are used both ways, as "the law" and as "the Law and the Prophets". (the books)

John 1:45
Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”

Acts 13:15
After the reading from the Law and the Prophets, the leaders of the synagogue sent word to them, saying, “Brothers, if you have a word of exhortation for the people, please speak.”

Romans 3:21
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

The Bible refers to a number of different categories of law, such as contrasting a law of works with a law of faith in Romans 3:27 and contrasting God's law with the law of sin in Romans 7:25, so correctly understanding which law is being referred to is often a matter of looking at the context. In any case, you should interpret fulfilling the Law of Moses in the same way that you interpret fulfilling the Law of Christ. In Galatians 5:14, loving your neighbor fulfills the entire law, so you should also interpret as referring to something that countless people have done. If someone stops at a stop sign, then they have fulfilled that traffic law by correctly doing what it requires of them. Likewise, it is important to consider the context of what Jews mean when they speak about people fulfilling the Torah.

 

[Charlie24]

The 2 groups spoken of here are the Jews and the Gentiles. They were divided by the Law (the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility).

By Jesus "setting aside in His flesh the Law with its commands and regulations" the Jew and Gentile became one by faith in Christ, this is the Church Paul is speaking of. Made up of both Jew and Gentile.

Jesus set aside the Law with its commands and regulations by fulfilling its demands for us.

Jesus did not break down or deconstruct the Law, He broke down the hostility between the Jew and Gentile caused by the Law, He did this by keeping the Law perfectly which satisfied its demands.

@Charlie24
The various acts (I have a whole list) of deconstructing the law was completed in the atonement. Jesus once and for all set aside the law with its commands and regulations. He put to death their hostility. (the law was the ministry of condemnation and death --- See 2 Corinthians 3:6-11)

Ephesians 2:14-16
For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

Another thing Steven!

Rom. 3:31,
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The Law has not been deconstructed, it is established, because it ever pointed to faith in the Cross of Christ for forgiveness of sins.

 

[Pathfinder627]

To the self-righteous Jew, Jesus said, you have heard that whosoever shall murder is in danger of the judgement, but I say, whoever is angry with his brother without cause is in danger of the judgement.

Jesus just placed anger without cause on the same level as murder!

He also said, you have heard you shall not commit adultery, but I say whoever looks on a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery in his heart.

So guys, if you have ever seen an outrageously beautiful woman and for one split second lusted after her, you are guilty of all the Law and commandments. You are condemned.

This is how intense Law and commandment is, do you think you can keep it?

There is no mercy in Law and commandment, whether it be the Law of Moses or the commandments of Christ, which is an extension of the Law. If you are guilty of one, you are guilty of all and condemned.

If you are trying to gain or retain salvation by keeping Law in any form, and that includes the commandments of Christ, you will fail and be condemned.

There will only be grace and mercy for sinful man by faith in Jesus Christ and His finished work alone.

It's always the Baptist who says "Jesus commanded these things, but you can't keep it, and he never meant you to". I've even heard a preacher go so far as to say that the totality of Jesus' life or his words never mattered. That he could have just been born and died on the cross, and that would have been sufficient. This is insanity, and Sola Fide taken to it's ridiculous end.

The "Law" that Paul talks about, and that is indeed superseded by faith, isn't about morals in general. He was talking about covenant laws - especially the kind causing so much anxiety amongst Gentiles at the time. Laws of circumcision or purity (diet, etc). Not ethics as a whole. Paul was very keen on instructing in ethics. He never taught "faith alone" in the sense of dispensing with keeping moral commandments. Only specific laws that separated Jews and Gentiles could be discarded. And Jesus especially didn't teach such a dismissive take on Law. He definitely warned against Rabbinic laws/Pharisees going beyond what the Law required, but not the idea of commandments in general.

The only time "Faith Alone" is even mentioned in the entire bible is in the negative: When James warned us about it. He outright told us: "You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone." - James 2:24

 

[Charlie24]

Messed up on my last post

It's always the Baptist who says "Jesus commanded these things, but you can't keep it, and he never meant you to". I've even heard a preacher go so far as to say that the totality of Jesus' life or his words never mattered. That he could have just been born and died on the cross, and that would have been sufficient. This is insanity, and Sola Fide taken to it's ridiculous end.

The "Law" that Paul talks about, and that is indeed superseded by faith, isn't about morals in general. He was talking about covenant laws - especially the kind causing so much anxiety amongst Gentiles at the time. Laws of circumcision or purity (diet, etc). Not ethics as a whole. Paul was very keen on instructing in ethics. He never taught "faith alone" in the sense of dispensing with keeping moral commandments. Only specific laws that separated Jews and Gentiles could be discarded. And Jesus especially didn't teach such a dismissive take on Law. He definitely warned against Rabbinic laws/Pharisees going beyond what the Law required, but not the idea of commandments in general.

The only time "Faith Alone" is even mentioned in the entire bible is in the negative: When James warned us about it. He outright told us: "You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone." - James 2:24

But you conveniently ignore Rom. 3:28,

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the Law.

In other words it's by faith alone.

3:27,
Where is boasting, it is excluded. By what Law? of works? NO, but by the Law of faith.

 

[Pathfinder627]

Messed up on my last post


But you conveniently ignore Rom. 3:28,

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the Law.

In other words it's by faith alone.

3:27,
Where is boasting, it is excluded. By what Law? of works? NO, but by the Law of faith.

But again, his whole apologetic (or treatise) about the Law is clarified when he talks about covenant and purity. And the "boasting" he's talking about is the "boasting" of the flesh: the boasting of Jews. The boasting of their covenant, which is irrelevant under the New Covenant. "Law" is his shorthand for all of this. But he isn't talking about all morals. In the same epistle (or any epistle), he is always recommending other type of moral instructions. Romans is full of edifying instructions about other matters not related to Jewish identity or purity.

 

[Charlie24]

But again, his whole apologetic (or treatise) about the Law is clarified when he talks about covenant and purity. And the "boasting" he's talking about is the "boasting" of the flesh: the boasting of Jews. The boasting of their covenant, which is irrelevant under the New Covenant. "Law" is his shorthand for all of this. But he isn't talking about all morals. In the same epistle (or any epistle), he is always recommending other type of moral instructions. Romans is full of edifying instructions about other matters not related to Jewish identity or purity.

Or could it be that you have misunderstood James. Could it be that James is saying that works proves a man is justified? Not that works justifies him.

Paul tells us several times that man is NOT justified by works in any way.

 

[Charlie24]

But again, his whole apologetic (or treatise) about the Law is clarified when he talks about covenant and purity. And the "boasting" he's talking about is the "boasting" of the flesh: the boasting of Jews. The boasting of their covenant, which is irrelevant under the New Covenant. "Law" is his shorthand for all of this. But he isn't talking about all morals. In the same epistle (or any epistle), he is always recommending other type of moral instructions. Romans is full of edifying instructions about other matters not related to Jewish identity or purity.

At the time James wrote his epistle, Josephus tells us that the persecution of the Church was under full swing. If one confessed Christ they were excommunicated, meaning they lost their jobs and everything with it.

James is frustrated that the believers were showing no works, the heart of his epistle is 2:20,

"But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead."

James gives them the example how that Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. This is justification by faith alone. James straight out tells us Abraham was justified by faith.

Then he goes on to show the works of Abraham that proved he was justified. "was not Abraham justified by works, when he offered Isaac his son upon the Alter."

James has already told them Abraham was justified by believing God. Now he is showing them how Abraham proved his justification by works.

James is not disagreeing with Paul that man is not justified by works. James is showing us that works prove our salvation, he is telling the believers of that day, if you have no works to prove your justification, as far as I'm concerned, you are not saved.

 

[Saint Steven]

Jesus set aside the Law with its commands and regulations by fulfilling its demands for us.

How were the law (small l), the commands and regulations fulfilled? (put aside)
Read it again. Thanks.

Ephesians 2:14-16
For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

 

[Saint Steven]

The Bible refers to a number of different categories of law, such as contrasting a law of works with a law of faith in Romans 3:27 and contrasting God's law with the law of sin in Romans 7:25, so correctly understanding which law is being referred to is often a matter of looking at the context. In any case, you should interpret fulfilling the Law of Moses in the same way that you interpret fulfilling the Law of Christ. In Galatians 5:14, loving your neighbor fulfills the entire law, so you should also interpret as referring to something that countless people have done. If someone stops at a stop sign, then they have fulfilled that traffic law by correctly doing what it requires of them. Likewise, it is important to consider the context of what Jews mean when they speak about people fulfilling the Torah.

Do you understand that sometimes the term "the Law" is a reference to the Books of the Law and not the law itself?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Part of the problem here is how we define the terms, "the law" and "the Law". (capital L)

The NIV translation helps us to better understand this by capitalizing the L and P when it refers to the Books of the Law and the Books of the Prophets. Examples below. Make special note of Romans 3:21, where the terms are used both ways, as "the law" and as "the Law and the Prophets". (the books)

John 1:45
Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”

Acts 13:15
After the reading from the Law and the Prophets, the leaders of the synagogue sent word to them, saying, “Brothers, if you have a word of exhortation for the people, please speak.”

Romans 3:21
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

 

[Saint Steven]

Another thing Steven!

Rom. 3:31,
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The Law has not been deconstructed, it is established, because it ever pointed to faith in the Cross of Christ for forgiveness of sins.

Just what it says and nothing more.
If you are concerned about the law, no worries. Through FAITH we "establish the law.
Not the other way around. We do not establish FAITH through the law.