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Featured Law and Commandment vs Grace and Mercy

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Charlie24, Sep 20, 2020.

  1. Charlie24

    Charlie24 Newbie Supporter

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    To the self-righteous Jew, Jesus said, you have heard that whosoever shall murder is in danger of the judgement, but I say, whoever is angry with his brother without cause is in danger of the judgement.

    Jesus just placed anger without cause on the same level as murder!

    He also said, you have heard you shall not commit adultery, but I say whoever looks on a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery in his heart.

    So guys, if you have ever seen an outrageously beautiful woman and for one split second lusted after her, you are guilty of all the Law and commandments. You are condemned.

    This is how intense Law and commandment is, do you think you can keep it?

    There is no mercy in Law and commandment, whether it be the Law of Moses or the commandments of Christ, which is an extension of the Law. If you are guilty of one, you are guilty of all and condemned.

    If you are trying to gain or retain salvation by keeping Law in any form, and that includes the commandments of Christ, you will fail and be condemned.

    There will only be grace and mercy for sinful man by faith in Jesus Christ and His finished work alone.
     
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  2. Danigt22

    Danigt22 Well-Known Member

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    We have victory in the lord Christ Jesus alone, all the glory be to him

    1Corinthians 15 "55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

    56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law."
     
  3. Agallagher

    Agallagher A great message at the crossofChrist/gospels.

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    @Charlie24 Your post reminded me about something that Yeshua Christ had said in Matthew Chapter 5:17-20 speaking to his twelve disicples.

    • 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

    • 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    • 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    • 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    In verse seventeen, Yeshua Christ is telling his chosen 12 disciples about how he had not come to destroy the law, or destroy the saying of the prophets. That had come to fulfill the saying of the prophets and fulfill the completion of the Law himself.

    In verse eighteen, Yeshua explains to his disciples. Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    In verse nineteen, Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them, the shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Talking about building up spiritual faith.) There are some who teach men and they have less spirit from the kingdom of Heaven because lack of faith. There are some who teach men to build up their spiritual faith to have peace in the kingdom of heaven.

    In verse twenty, Yeshua continues speaking, For I say unto you. That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall never enter into the kingdom of heaven. Yeshua here is saying to his 12 chosen disciples.
    • That unless they become perfect, in the worldly sense they would never have rest because of not being reborn with the spirit of Christ/holy spirit, called the kingdom of heaven, which resides in all believers now today on this earth. Who shine the light of Christ to others along their way here on this earth God, created.
     
  4. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    I agree that person can do nothing to be saved from the judgment that would come because of sin. But, I think it would be good to understand also that Jesus said for sinner:

    "Neither do I condemn you. Go your way. From now on, sin no more."
    John 8:11

    People should be born anew from God and not remain in sin.

    "Most assuredly, I tell you, unless one is born anew, he can't see the Kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can't enter into the Kingdom of God! That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Don't marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born anew.'
    John 3:3-7

    But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God's children, to those who believe in his name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
    John 1:12-13

    It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
    John 6:63

    And If person is born of God and so God’s children, he is righteous and without sin.

    … Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
    1 John 3:7-10

    With God, it is possible to be without sin.
     
  5. Charlie24

    Charlie24 Newbie Supporter

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    You do err my friend! The term used by John "commit sin" and "can't sin" in the Greek are referring to "practicing sin."

    This is practicing sin, continuing to sin without regard, without forgiveness.

    This goes back to John's words in 1John 1:10, if we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar.

    And also in 1John 2:2, if any man sin we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ.

    You are preaching sinless perfection by completely misunderstanding scripture!
     
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  6. WebersHome

    WebersHome Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Matt 19:17 . . And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments

    Seeing as none but God are good, then it's obvious that none but God can enter into life by means of goodness. However, if someone would like to give it a try anyway in spite of the fact that failure is inevitable; then Jesus suggests they begin their quest with the commandments.
    _
     
  7. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from the Torah, so Jesus did not do that. Not being angry with our brother is based on Leviticus 19:17. Not looking at a woman with lust in our hearts is just the correct application of the 7th and 10th Commandments against adultery and coveting in our hearts, so he was not extending the Torah. Lusting is not about having a thought pop unto our head of split second, but about what we choose to do with it. In 2 Corinthians 10:5, we are told to take every thought captive and make it obedient to Christ. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that justice, mercy, and faith are weightier matter of the Torah. If we break any law and become a lawbreaker, then we need to repent and return to obedience, which is precisely what James 2:1-11 was encouraging us to do.

    In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith, in Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His Torah, and in Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is what the Torah was given to instruct how to do, so God graciously teaching us to do good works in obedience to His Torah is itself part of the content of His free gift of salvation, and participating in that training does nothing to earn it, but rather that is what it looks like to receive it. Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of the Torah (1 John 3:4), so being trained by grace to live in obedience to the Torah through faith is what Jesus saving us from living in transgression of the Torah looks like. Furthermore, in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so if we have faith in the finished work of Jesus on the cross, then we will express that faith by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah (Acts 21:20). So while we do not earn our salvation by obeying the Torah, it is also true that we are not saved from living in disobedience to the Torah while refusing to live in obedience to it through faith.
     
  8. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    In John 6:40, Jesus said that those who look on the Son and believe in him will have eternal life, so pairing that with Matthew 19:17 means that obedience to the commandments is what it looks like to believe in Jesus. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law, so obedience to the commandments is what faith in Jesus looks like, and it is by that same faith that we enter eternal life. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. Jesus did not add anything about them giving it a try in spite of the fact that failure is inevitable, but rather that is entirely what you've added.
     
  9. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    A law that is the strength of a sin is a law that is sinful, however, in Romans 7:7, Paul said that God's law is not sinful, therefore 1 Corinthians 15:55-56 could not be referring to God's law, but rather it is the law of sin that is the strength of sin.
     
  10. Danigt22

    Danigt22 Well-Known Member

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    This is true, I didnt put a contrast in it. The law isnt evil, nevertheless seeking to be justify by it will put under death. Snakes actually represent the seraphines if Im not wrong.
     
  11. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    In Romans 7:25, Paul directly contrasted God's law with the law of sin, so they are opposites. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is on of the weightier matters of God's law, so only those who have faith in God to guide us in how to live will obey His law and will be justified by that same faith, which is why Paul said that only doers of the law will be justified (Romans 2:13), but did not say that we earn our justification by obeying the law.
     
  12. WebersHome

    WebersHome Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Matt 5:27-28 . .You have heard that it was said: You shall not commit adultery. But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

    Unskilled use of that passage has served to warp thousands of innocent young psyches, and burdened men with unnecessary guilt complexes over sex and the human body.

    First off, fertility is a blessing given to men and women in the very beginning.

    Gen 1:27-28 . . Male and female created He them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them: "Be fruitful, and multiply"

    Had libido not been included in that blessing, human life would've become an endangered species within just a few generations. Anybody familiar with the birds and bees understands very well that attraction is crucial to multiplication.

    Now, before we can even begin to apply what Christ said about adultery; we first have to categorize the "woman" about whom he spoke. Well; she's obviously somebody's wife because adultery is defined as voluntary carnal activity between a married man and someone other than his wife, or between a married woman and someone other than her husband. In other words; in order for an incident to qualify as adultery, at least one of the participants has to be married.

    Further: the Greek word for "lust" is epithumeo (ep-ee-thoo-meh'-o) which means: to set the heart upon.

    Setting one's heart upon something is a whole lot different than merely liking something and wanting it. The one whose heart is set upon something is in the process of finding a way to get it; and as such comes under the rules that control covetousness; which read:

    Ex 20:17 . .You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, his male or female slave, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.

    In other words; when Jesus said "but I say to you" he wasn't introducing something new. It was old hat in the Jews' covenant; the one that Moses' people agreed upon with God back in the Old Testament; but the rabbis weren't teaching it.

    Now; coveting, per se, isn't a sin. Paul encouraged the Corinthian Christians to "covet earnestly" the best spiritual gifts (1Cor 12:31) and to covet prophesy (1Cor 14:39). To "covet earnestly" means you go after something with the full intention of possessing it.

    Ex 20:17 doesn't condemn erotic fantasies nor a healthy male libido, no, it condemns scheming to take something of your neighbor's instead of getting your own.

    Rom 13:14 . . But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof.

    The emphasis there is not upon human nature's desires, but rather, upon taking steps to fulfill them; which has the distinction of being the correct interpretation of Matt 5:27-28.

    So then, is it wrong for a man to look across the street at his neighbor's Harley and drool over it, turning green with envy? Or wrong for a man to gape at his neighbor's buxom wife, undressing her with his eyes, and having erotic fantasies about her? No, it's not wrong because the kind of lust we're talking about here doesn't imply that at all. It implies a man scheming to take the neighbor's Harley away from him, and the buxom wife too, instead of getting his own.

    In the movie "The Bridges Of Madison County", there's a precise moment when a married Francesca Johnson makes a definite decision to initiate an affair with free-lance photographer Robert Kincaid. Francesca's association with Robert was innocent up till the moment of her decision; but from that moment on, Mrs. Johnson was an adulteress before she and Robert even slept together because it was in her heart to make it happen.

    Gen 3:16 . .Your desire will be for your husband

    That has the distinction of the first God-given law prohibiting adultery, and notably; it was imposed upon the wife rather than her husband.
    _
     
  13. Danigt22

    Danigt22 Well-Known Member

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    The doers will not inherit the promise, only those who believe in the finish work on the cross.

    Galatians 3 "6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

    7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

    8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

    9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

    10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

    11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

    12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

    13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

    14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

    15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

    16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

    17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

    18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

    19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

    20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

    21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

    22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

    23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

    24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

    25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

    26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

    27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

    28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

    29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
     
  14. Danigt22

    Danigt22 Well-Known Member

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    Works are for the crowns, and being grateful to our lord Jesus Christ. Do it out of love and not fear. Satan no longer has any poison against us.
     
  15. Charlie24

    Charlie24 Newbie Supporter

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    Jesus did not add or subtract from the Law, as you said. His commandments added a new dimension to Law, the spiritual element. He doubled down on the Law in a fashion not previously known to the Jews.

    When Jesus gave these commandments He was pointing to the Cross, the work He would do there.

    He combined the Law and His commandments into a singular commandment, we have it written in 1John 22-23,

    And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

    And this is His commandment (given to us in the singular), That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

    When we surrender to Jesus by accepting Him as Saviour, there is no more observing law and commandments of any kind. We are to follow Him in faith, loving one another and allowing the Holy Spirit bring forth fruit in His timing and fashion, not ours.
     
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  16. Danigt22

    Danigt22 Well-Known Member

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    Romans 10 "9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    [10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
     
  17. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    I don't see why you do not consider addition new dimensions to the law to be adding to it. Jesus fulfilled the law six times in Matthew 5:21-48 by teaching how to correctly obey it as it was originally intended to be understood without saying anything about the cross. If someone's obedience to that singular commandment does not look like obedience to all of the other commandments, then they are not treating it as being the fulfillment of the other commandments.

    To believe in the one who he has sent is to believe in who he is, what he was sent to accomplish, and in what that means for how we should live our lives. The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the nature of God as it does to describe the nature of God's law, which is because it is His instructions for how to express His nature, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), or with justice, mercy, and faithfulness being weightier matters of the law (Matthew 23:23). God's ways reveal His nature and there are many verses that describe the Mosaic Law as being instructions for how to walk in God's ways, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7, and many others. Jesus is the radiance of God's glory and the exact expression of His nature (Hebrews 1:3), which looked like life lived in sinless obedience to the Mosaic Law. The Mosaic Law reveals God's ways or is the way (Jeremiah 6:16-19), the truth (Psalms 119:142), and the life (Deuteronomy 32:47), so Jesus is the personification of God's nature, he is the Word of God made flesh, and he put the nature of the Father on display, which is why he is the personification of the way, the truth, and the life, that no one comes to the Father but through him, and that anyone who has seen him as seen the Father (John 14:6-9). In John 5:39-40, Jesus said that the Scriptures testify about him, so the whole goal of the Mosaic Law is to teach us about how to know or have a relationship with Christ and about how to testifying about who he is, which is why he is the goal of the law (Romans 10:4). In John 6:40, Jesus said that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, in Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that if we want enter into eternal life, then obey the commandments, and in Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments, so I think that obedience to the Mosaic Law is what it looks like to believe in who Jesus is.

    Jesus began his ministry calling people to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17-23), and the Mosaic Law is how his people knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message, which he prophesied would be proclaimed to all nations (Matthew 24:12-14). He also said in those verses that because of lawlessness the love of many will grow cold, but those who endure to the end will be saved. In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and in Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is what the Mosaic Law was given to instruct how to do, so God graciously teaching us how to live in obedience to His law is itself part of the content of His free gift of salvation from sin, and sin is living in transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4). Furthermore, Titus 2:14 says that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so if we believe both in what Jesus was sent to accomplish through his ministry and through his death on the cross and understand what that means for how we should live our lives, then we will express that belief through repenting and becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law (Acts 21:20).

    There is no sense you wanting to surrender to Jesus and accepting Him as Savior from living in disobedience to God's law by refusing to surrender to him and by refusing to live in obedience to God's law. You can't follow Jesus in faith by refusing to follow the law he followed and taught us to follow by word and by example. In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized the Mosaic Law as bieng about how to love God and our neighbor, so that is how he taught us to love one another. In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's law, and in Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant still involves following God's law. In Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic Law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it.
     
  18. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    God's law straightforwardly does what it was given to do and does not do what it was not given to do, so we do not inherit the promise by obeying it because it was never given for that purpose, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't obey it for the purposes for which it was given. In Titus 2:14, it describes the finished work of Christ on the cross by saying that he gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so if we believe in the finished work on the cross, then we will become zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law (Acts 21:20) and will not return to the lawlessness that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from.

    In Romans 9:30-10:4, the Israelites had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowledge because they did not understand that the righteousness of God only comes through faith in Christ. So they failed to obtain righteousness because they pursued the Torah as through righteousness were by works in an effort to establish their own instead of pursuing the Torah as through righteousness were by faith in Christ, for Christ is the goal of the Torah for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Romans 10:5-10, Paul quoted Deuteronomy 30:11-16, in regard to this faith saying that the Torah is not too difficult for us to obey, that the one who obeys it will obtain life by it, and in regard to what it looks like to submit to Jesus as Lord.
     
  19. Danigt22

    Danigt22 Well-Known Member

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    There is a judgement seat of Christ. This for what your works are, to inherit the crowns and rewards. The finish work in the cross was God glory only. Dont put your works were redemption is finish. That is the promise of the spirit in which we are one body in Christ. He can not deny himself. He doesnt lose anyone. In my eyes this is diminishing God and putting power to sin.
     
  20. Charlie24

    Charlie24 Newbie Supporter

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    Rom. 3:20-21

    "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;"

    There is no salvation in the Law or the commandments. They pointed to the Cross, that was their purpose.

    The Cross of Christ is the focal point of all the Law and that is where your salvation will be found.

    We are keeping the Law and Commandments of Christ by faith in Christ, not by observing them.

    God requires that ALL our faith be in Him, not in the laws that condemn us.
     
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