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Law and Commandment vs Grace and Mercy

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Charlie24, Sep 20, 2020.

  1. Studyman

    Studyman Well-Known Member

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    I would challenge you to point out even one Law other than the Levitical Priesthood, in the 4 chapters of Hebrews that specially speaks to the New Covenant as defined by the Christ of the Bible. But if you are willing to omit and ignore the Hebrews verses I posted which define specifically what Law changed and why, then it is probable that you will also reject the question, and the answer an honest examination of Hebrews 7-10 would yield to the question.


    And yet you will not find a reference to any other Law in all of Hebrews 7-10 other than the Covenant God made with Levi. And you are willfully ignoring the Scriptures I posted which not only define the Law that changed, but also the reason why it was necessary for it to change. You unbelief in these scriptures doesn't make them of none effect.

    I am only going by what the scriptures say. You are free to show me a reference to any other Law of God if you can. But if you can't, then you might consider that it isn't the Holy Scriptures which are in error, but your religious philosophy.


    And yet it is me who posted the Scriptures you have omitted. And I agree with Paul in everything he says, including not to let men who don't believe in the Commandments and statutes and Laws of God, judge those who do.

    And I will not argue with you either, but I will post the Scriptures you ignore so as to edify the brethren to avoid deception because of Jesus' warning in Matt. 24:4&5.
     
  2. Studyman

    Studyman Well-Known Member

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    Again, you are omitting the scriptures which define this statement.

    5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

    6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

    7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

    8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

    What Law requires sacrifices and offering for sin? We have a new and better way for sins to be atoned for.

    9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

    10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

    12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

    Yes, A High Priest after the order of Aaron, replaced by the High Priest after the order of Melchizedek.

    What about these other scriptures you omit. Are they not also inspired by the Christ? Am I to just throw these away because of the religious philosophy of some religious men?

    Yes. As the Scriptures tell us.

    Jer. 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

    23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

    But they didn't obey God's Voice.

    24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.

    It was after this that God commanded them about "burnt offerings or sacrifices", as HE says.

    Mal. 2:4 And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

    5 My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name.

    6 The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.

    7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

    But these Shepherds led God's people astray.

    8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

    And what did God do? Hebrews tells us.

    Heb. 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

    8 For finding fault with them, (Levite Priests who corrupted God's Covenant with them) he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

    So no more Levite Priests to become "Partial in the Law" and lead men astray. The Christ Himself will write HIS LAWS on the hearts of HIS People, preserving them in the minds of His People for ever. AS Paul tells us.

    25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; (Where the Christ of the Bible writes them) but with the flesh the law of sin. (The Flesh is dead and the New Man with God's Laws written on his mind lives on)

    It is your religious philosophy that the OT is gone. Not the Gospel of the Christ of the Bible. As Jesus Himself said. The Priesthood changed, not God's definition of sin.

    Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

    I know I'm bucking the mainstream religious philosophies of the land. My hope is to show the scriptures "many" omit from their preaching in order to more clearly understand what the scriptures are saying.
     
  3. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    What do you make of this?

    John 5:18
    For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

    John 9:16
    Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.” But others asked, “How can a sinner perform such signs?” So they were divided.
     
  4. mlepfitjw

    mlepfitjw May you be blessed!

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    Hello Chalie24. My name is Matthew. When you take time to speak about the Lord Jesus Christ was already under-law, when he was born. Yeshua grew up and selected 12 apostles who he had most of the time with him speaking about the life, death, burial, resurrection and that the resurrection did happen in the after life. Our hope and faith is based on what the Lord Jesus Christ has done for us all. The only commandments that are told to his apostles are to Love God, and to Love Others.
     
  5. Charlie24

    Charlie24 Newbie

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    Josephus said that the Scribes and Pharisees had so changed the Law with hundreds of added precepts that it was unlawful for a woman to comb her hair on the Sabbath.

    Jesus told them, you have burdened down the people with rules that you yourselves do not observe.

    The religious leaders of Christ's day had no understanding of what the Law meant. When Jesus acted out the perfect law before their eyes, they wanted to kill Him.

    Jesus called them to their faces exactly what they were, hypocrites.
     
  6. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    There is something to that, but it doesn't apply here.

    I see Jesus deconstructing the law in the gospels.

    The most basic violation of Sabbath law (the part of the law given by God) was any kind of work. Jesus had ordered a man to carry his mat and go home. This was a clear violation of Sabbath rest. Carrying a load. (Nehemiah 13:19)
    And what was the perception of the people in reference to Jesus and the law? (John 9:16)

    We should also look at the grainfield story in Matthew 12:1; Mark 2:23; Luke:6:1
    What reasons did Jesus give for what they were doing? Even implicating himself.

    Saint Steven said:
    What do you make of this?

    John 5:18
    For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

    John 9:16
    Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.” But others asked, “How can a sinner perform such signs?” So they were divided.
     
  7. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    @Charlie24
    Did Jesus confirm or deny the charges of unlawful activity?

    Matthew 12:1-8
    At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”
    3 He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5 Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent? 6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. 7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
     
  8. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I already demonstrated to you that Jesus was making changes to the Law (before the cross) with many Scripture verses (Please see again my post #163 to you in another thread). You could make oaths according to the Old Law, but Jesus said, make no oaths at all. Jesus quoted the Old Law on an eye for an eye and said to turn the other cheek instead. According to the Law: Jesus should have stoned the woman caught in the act of adultery, but He taught a new way in offering her forgiveness. There was a change. This is because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. Hebrews 7:11 says that the Israelites received the Law from the Levitical priesthood. According to Psalms 99:6, Moses and Aaron were both priests and Moses acted as a priest for the Levites in the golden calf incident before Aaron became a priest. This means that Moses is a part of the Levite tribe who gave Israel the Law. For Moses is Aaron's brother. So naturally they would be of the same tribe. Moses actually gave us the Law. So the Law did come from the Levite tribe or the Levitical priesthood starting with Moses (Whereby Moses passed the baton of priestly duties to Aaron). The Law was given to Israel when Moses gave the Israelites the 10 commandments and then later the written Torah. So this means that the Law is the topic of conversation in Hebrews 7:12. So the Law has changed.

    The only reason why you don't want to see that Jesus was making changes before the cross is because it does not align with your belief that Christians can sin and still be saved (Which I believe is the wide gate belief that most churches believe these days).
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2020
  9. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Just because the context is talking about the Levitical priesthood in context does not mean that Hebrews 7:11-12 is referring to only Levitical priesthood laws alone. Hebrews 7:11 makes it clear that it is in reference to the Law of Moses in general. See my post #88.

    If you still refuse to see the truth on this matter (because you are influenced already in keeping certain aspects of the Old Law that have passed away), then there is no need to continue this discussion. In fact, I am told not to strive against matters of the Law (i.e. the Old Law) according to Titus 3:9. So if you don't get it, please do not respond. I am not going to keep discussing this with you. So if you feel the urge to reply, just know that I am not going to reply to you directly on the matter anymore. Those who have ears to hear will hear.

    Peace and blessings be unto you in the Lord today.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2020
  10. Charlie24

    Charlie24 Newbie

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    Jesus did not deconstruct the Law, my friend. Let me explain why the man who picked up the sticks was sentenced to death by the Lord.

    Let's read the 2 verses before the account of the man picking up the sticks.

    Numbers 15:30-31,
    But the soul that does presumptuously whether he be born in the land or a stranger, the same reproaches the Lord, and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

    Because he has despised the Word of the Lord and has broken His commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off, his iniquity shall be upon him.

    This was said before the man picking up the sticks.

    God knew the heart of this man, it was evil, he deliberately did this in unbelief, it was not ignorance on his part, he was openly defying God.

    Gods law concerning the Sabbath was not what the religious leaders believed it was. David eating the shewbread on the Sabbath, the example of the ox in the ditch, there was liberty in necessity, but they did not understand this, they didn't want to understand this.
     
  11. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I agree that this was an instance where the Pharisees did not understand God's Old Covenant Law. So it is true. Jesus revealed things about the Old Law that they did not know, but this does not mean that Jesus did not make changes in the Law before the cross, though (See again my post #163 to you in another thread for the verses).
     
  12. Charlie24

    Charlie24 Newbie

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    The scripture plainly tells us that Jesus fulfilled the Law perfectly.

    The scripture plainly tells us that when He did, the Law became obsolete.

    The scripture plainly tells us that the Old has been replaced by the New.

    There were no changes, just fulfillment!
     
  13. Studyman

    Studyman Well-Known Member

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    This is spot on, and not really taught in modern religions. We are told the Pharisees were trying to "earn salvation" by keep God's Law "to the letter" as I have heard since my youth. But this is not true. It is important to understand why God rejected these religious leaders of that time. As Jesus said.

    Matt. 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

    And again;

    7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

    8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

    9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Not God)

    They accused Jesus and His Disciples of breaking God's Sabbath because they took a walk in Fellowship and ate an apple or ear of corn along the way. There was no such Law given by God. Jesus never broke God's Sabbath. He broke the "Commandments of Men" that these mainstream preachers called the Law of Moses, but were really religious traditions and commandments of men. But He honored God's Sabbath as HE did with all God's Commandments.

    Great catch, good post. Thank you for it.
     
  14. Studyman

    Studyman Well-Known Member

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    If you have to omit scriptures from the Bible in order to support your religious philosophy, then there is a problem. And when the Scriptures you omit are shown to you, and you still don't consider them, then there really isn't any reason to continue. As Jesus said;

    "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by Every Word which proceeds from the mouth of God"

    3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

    4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
     
  15. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Anyone can look at the post link I provided for you (i.e. post #163) and they can see the changes Jesus was making involving the Law for themselves. Those who have ears to hear will hear. Those who want to turn God's grace into a license for immorality or a sin and still be saved gospel will not of course hear it because they don't want to see it.
     
  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Who gave the Law to the Israelites?
     
  17. Studyman

    Studyman Well-Known Member

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    The Same God who gave HIS LAW to Abraham.
     
  18. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from the Torah, so you should be quicker to think that someone needs to repent from their sins than to follow anyone who you think was teaching to disregard previous things. Likewise, in Deuteronomy 13:4-5, the way that God instructed His people to determine that someone was a false prophet who was not speaking for Him was if they taught against obeying the Torah, so God simply did not leave any room for His people to follow anyone who does that. The bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, so you should be quicker to disregard everything that any man had said than to disregard anything that God has commanded, but that is not what they were doing.

    Paul was not a false prophet and an enemy of God, so you shouldn't interpret what he said in a way that makes him out to be one. The topic of Romans 14 stated in the first verse is in regard to handle disputable matters of option, not in regard to whether followers of God should follow God, so nothing in the chapter should be interpreted as saying that obedience to what God has commanded is optional.

    God did not command to keep the Sabbath on every day, but rather he commanded to keep the 7th day holy, so you should not act like you know better than God how He wants to be worshipped. Something that is holy is set apart and in order for there to be something that is set apart, there needs to also be something else that it is set apart from, so to treat every day as the same is to treat none of them as holy. If we did on every day what God wants us to do on the Sabbath, then we would do no work, but God also wants us to work.
     
  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Yes, that’s true, but I am referring about a human being. Did not Moses give his people the Law, too?
     
  20. Studyman

    Studyman Well-Known Member

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    Well the first "human being" to give Jacob, AKA Israel God's Laws, would have been Abraham.

    Gen. 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

    Then when Israel was taken captive by Egypt, it was Moses. Then God appointed Aaron and his sons to administer God's Laws. Then God Himself promised to become the human Messiah, and write God's Laws on the hearts of His People.

    I'm not sure what you are getting at.
     
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