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The World Needs Women Priests

Strong in Him

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It reminds me of the fact that some Christians are mindful that, as the NT ahd history both teach, Christ founded his church and endowed it with certain responsibilities.

Strange; it reminded me of Jesus.

Also, that there are others who are Christians by belief but think that the institutional church, in whichever denomination, isn't needed to spread the faith, defend the faith, administer the sacraments, resolve differences between members, and so on--even though the Bible itself shows us that the church did all of this from the start and was supposed to.

But the church isn't God, and religious leaders aren't God.
God has worked without, and apart from, both in the past.

When it comes to a person receiving a call to the ordained ministry, all sorts of people say that they feel called.

No doubt - men as well.

It is the church once again which is responsible for making the determination, just as it is necessary that the church prepare that person for ordination and then perform the ordination.

Exactly; no one assumes this for themselves, or takes over the pulpit by force.
And some churches have tested a woman's call to ordination, accepted it, trained her, ordained her and asked the rest of the church if they accept her ministry.

So where does the "usurping" come into it?

I have also encountered people who insist that God has called them to the priesthood and say that this is all that matters, but then expect the institutional church to ordain them!

No doubt.
I have met people who at a Christian job interview have said "the Lord is giving me this job"; it then becomes hard for the interviewers to say "no, he isn't", and must be quite hard to accept that outcome.

But I have also heard of, and known, women who are happy serving God as they are; a church leader has challenged them to think about ordination, even though it was the last thing on their minds, they've gone ahead, believing that the "call" would fail - and been accepted. Years later they have admitted they were in the right place.

If they were consistent with their own thinking, it seems that they would not need the church for any ordination and would not expect it, but would simply go out into the highways and byways serving in whatever capacity they felt called to, citing the call received privately from God as their authorization.

Being ordained by the church and going out to do evangelism and make disciples are two different things.
I only know that
a) in some denominations there is a rigorous testing of a call to preach, or to ordination
b) if people want a recognised ordained ministry it comes from the church, rather than an email asking you to pay $s
c) but sometimes the church gets it wrong, the person called goes to another denomination and is accepted. I think that probably happened in the years before Anglicans ordained women, and I've known it to happen since.

When God calls he calls. If church A refuse to listen to his plan, he will fulfil it elsewhere - and they will miss out.
 
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Bruce Leiter

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The world needs women priests
to help women in poor countries get an education and jobs.

Jesus ordained two priests.
John the Baptist and Mary of Bethany.

Does the world need women priests?

Where did you get the idea that Jesus ordained Mary of Bethany and John the Baptist? I don't find those events in the Bible.
 
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Love365

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Jesus let John the Baptist give Him a baptism.
Like a priest.

Jesus let Mary of Bethany anoint Him with holy oil.
Like a priest.
Then Jesus said when you spread the Gospel throughout the world,
Do it in memory of her.

Why?
She was the first woman to be a Christian priest.
 
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Albion

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But the church isn't God, and religious leaders aren't God.
That's very true. However, it was established by Him, and we must believe that that was done for some purpose. When we turn to the purposes, the New Testament describes the selection process for clergy and gives a number of qualifications and attributes for those chosen, and then history records their functions.

Therefore, the idea that none of this matters, but only what somebody feels in his or her heart, isn't a very strong argument.
 
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Hammster

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Jesus let John the Baptist give Him a baptism.
Like a priest.

Jesus let Mary of Bethany anoint Him with holy oil.
Like a priest.
Then Jesus said when you spread the Gospel throughout the world,
Do it in memory of her.

Why?
She was the first woman to be a Christian priest.
Where do we find the qualifications for female priests?
 
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Strong in Him

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That's very true. However, it was established by Him, and we must believe that that was done for some purpose. When we turn to the purposes, the New Testament describes the selection process for clergy and gives a number of qualifications and attributes for those chosen, and then history records their functions.

Therefore, the idea that none of this matters, but only what somebody feels in his or her heart, isn't a very strong argument.

Yes, although I didn't say that this happens all the time.
In very many cases, ordination does not happen without a thorough testing of a call by the church, followed by training. That a number of churches test women's calls, and then accept those calls, shows that they have been accepted, recognised and authorised by the church - no woman would get ordained just because she said "I feel I should be." So that fulfils the criteria of being authorized by the church. And a woman has followed/submitted to authority, not usurped it.

But it's still the case that throughout the Bible, and history, religious leaders have sometimes said "you can't do that", but it happens anyway because God has called and he makes it possible.
That's what I was referring to earlier - sometimes God calls, and a person knows they have to obey - no matter what the authorities say.
 
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Albion

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In very many cases, ordination does not happen without a thorough testing of a call by the church, followed by training. That a number of churches test women's calls, and then accept those calls, shows that they have been accepted, recognised and authorised by the church
No, it shows that it is accepted by those particular denominations. They are not "the Church" to the exclusion of 2000 years of Christian history.
 
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Archivist

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Where do we find the qualifications for female priests?
Except the Bible mentions Apostles bishops, elders and deacons, but not priests. Priests would probably equate to elders, but the Bible tells us very little about elders.

The Bible does tell us that we had a female preacher (Mary), a female deacon (Phoebe) and a female apostle (Junia). We don’t know if there were any female elders.

BTW, there is nothing in scripture that directly equates to the modern office of pastor.
 
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buzuxi02

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If we get back to the OP, the odd assertion made is female priests would help females in third world countries go to universities and become professionals (as if having a law degree helps in a remote village).

The purpose of Christian priests is to perform the sacraments first and foremost. Secondly to give spiritual guidance which is usually limited to the people that attend his own parish/church.
Why would people get the idea that a priest/pastor/elder/bishop has as one of his duties to organize an economy??? People realize that being spiritual or even getting a theological degree doesn't mean your an expert in economic planning?
 
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Albion

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Except the Bible mentions Apostles bishops, elders and deacons, but not priests.
It mentions deacons, presbyters and bishops. A presbyter is what later came to be called a priest, and the word "elder" in that usage refers to the same office.

In the early church, there were a number of presbyters AKA elders who ran the affairs of the congregation; they were headed by one of their number who was referred to as the bishop.

The term elder did not refer, as it does today in some Evangelical churches, to a layman who might be a member of the church board.

The Bible does tell us that we had a female preacher (Mary), a female deacon (Phoebe) and a female apostle (Junia). We don’t know if there were any female elders.
There are and were women who "preached" but had no other functions of a priest/presbyter. Some were "convenors," who organized mission congregations, for example, but did not pastor them.

Women were not deacons, although there were lay women who were set aside, not ordained, to perform certain functions with children and other women and called deaconesses. Some churches today still have deaconesses. The word in the original language means "servant" and can refer to either male deacons or female deaconesses.

And as for "apostle," surely you do not suppose that Junia was one of the twelve whom Jesus had called. No, the word means a messenger or emissary, and women were sometimes appointed to carry out that responsibility. They too were unordained although the position was important and respected.
 
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Archivist

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It mentions deacons, presbyters and bishops. A presbyter is what later came to be called a priest, and the word "elder" in that usage refers to the same office.

Yes, it uses elder and presbyter. I used elder, you used presbyter.

In the early church, there were a number of presbyters AKA elders who ran the affairs of the congregation; they were headed by one of their number who was referred to as the bishop.

Yes, that’s why I listed bishops ahead of elders.

The term elder did not refer, as it does today in some Evangelical churches, to a layman who might be a member of the church board.

Not sure what your point is as I never said it referenced a church board member.

There are and were women who "preached" but had no other functions of a priest/presbyter. Some were "convenors," who organized mission congregations, for example, but did not pastor them.

And there is nothing in the Bible to support that.

Women were not deacons, although there were lay women who were set aside, not ordained, to perform certain functions with children and other women and called deaconesses. Some churches today still have deaconesses. The word in the original language means "servant" and can refer to either male deacons or female deaconesses.

No the Bible specifically says that Phoebe was a deacon.

And as for "apostle," surely you do not suppose that Junia was one of the twelve whom Jesus had called. No, the word means a messenger or emissary, and women were sometimes appointed to carry out that responsibility. They too were unordained although the position was important and respected.

I didn’t say that Junia was one of the twelve, did I. But she was an apostle.
 
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Albion

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Yes, it uses elder and presbyter. I used elder, you used presbyter.
Sure, but presbyter, priest, bishop, and elder all refer to what was originally the same office.

I didn’t say that Junia was one of the twelve, did I.
I didn't say that you did, but many people mistakenly argue that since she is described as an "apostle" (messenger) that this must mean that she had to be clergy, even a bishop. It doesn't. Again, the root meaning of the word is not what people today assume.
 
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Love365

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If we get back to the OP, the odd assertion made is female priests would help females in third world countries go to universities and become professionals (as if having a law degree helps in a remote village).

The purpose of Christian priests is to perform the sacraments first and foremost. Secondly to give spiritual guidance which is usually limited to the people that attend his own parish/church.
Why would people get the idea that a priest/pastor/elder/bishop has as one of his duties to organize an economy??? People realize that being spiritual or even getting a theological degree doesn't mean your an expert in economic planning?

In poor countries we are talking about any education at all.
Women are better at teaching women.

Some women might be more comfortable
telling her confessions to a woman priest.
 
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JackRT

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Jesus let John the Baptist give Him a baptism.
Like a priest.

Jesus let Mary of Bethany anoint Him with holy oil.
Like a priest.
Then Jesus said when you spread the Gospel throughout the world,
Do it in memory of her.

Why?
She was the first woman to be a Christian priest.

The early church regarded Mary Magdalene as "the Apostle to the Apostles". She is regarded as the first Christian missionary to the south of France. There is a stained glass window in the Cathedral of Marseilles depicting her consecrating the first bishop.

I also regard Mary Magdalene and Mary of Bethany as the same person.
 
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All4Christ

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The world needs women priests
to help women in poor countries get an education and jobs.

Jesus ordained two priests.
John the Baptist and Mary of Bethany.

Does the world need women priests?
Mary of Bethany ordained as a priest? Where do you get that idea??

ETA: I saw the other post now that explains it. That doesn’t mean that he ordained her as a priest.
 
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Strong in Him

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No, it shows that it is accepted by those particular denominations. They are not "the Church" to the exclusion of 2000 years of Christian history.

And those denominations are part of the church.
I believe the argument was that a woman cannot ordain herself or go off and do her own thing apart from the church; I said that most do. Calls to preach, and to ordination, are properly submitted to, and tested by, the church.
It now appears that you don't recognise the authority of those denominations that ordain women because they, apparently, conflict with 2000 years of history, and 2000 years of history must be correct.

I would dispute that as well.
Women have always been involved in teaching, and proclaiming, God's word - from the prophetesses of the OT, to Mary Magdalene, the woman at the well, Phoebe, Priscilla etc.
In a very male dominated society women were nothing, yet look at how Jesus treated them; he healed and taught them, allowed them to sit at his feet like the male student Rabbis did, allowed them to anoint him and chose a woman to be the first witness to the resurrection.
Women were in the upper room with the disciples after the ascension, and present at Pentecost. Women hosted meetings of the church, taught Apostles (Priscilla) and may have helped to found churches (Lydia, Acts of the Apostles 16:13-15). Paul commended the women who worked alongside him in the work of the Kingdom (Romans 16), and reminded Timothy of the 2 women in his life who had passed on the faith.

There is no mention in the NT of ordination, Ministers, vicars or dog collars. The practice of an ordained Minister presiding at communion otherwise it is not "valid", is not taught in the NT. Yet as soon as female ordination is mentioned, there are some who say, "there is no verse in the NT saying that woman became pastors/Ministers, therefore they didn't; therefore it's not allowed."

Some people (and I don't necessarily mean you) are quite inconsistent in the way that they interpret, and apply, the scriptures.
 
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Archivist

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Sure, but presbyter, priest, bishop, and elder all refer to what was originally the same office.

Actually priest was not one of the terms originally used, that came later.

I didn't say that you did, but many people mistakenly argue that since she is described as an "apostle" (messenger) that this must mean that she had to be clergy, even a bishop. It doesn't. Again, the root meaning of the word is not what people today assume.

But you said it in response to my post, which made it appear that I don’t know the difference.
 
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Strong in Him

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I also regard Mary Magdalene and Mary of Bethany as the same person.

Wasn't Mary of Bethany sister to Martha and Lazarus, John 12:1-3?

In Luke 7:36-39, the woman who anointed Jesus is not named, whereas in Luke 8:3 Mary Magdalene is named and described as the woman from whom 7 demons had been driven out.
 
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Albion

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In poor countries we are talking about any education at all.
Women are better at teaching women.

Some women might be more comfortable
telling her confessions to a woman priest.

Possibly so, but it's not our job to recreate Christ's church, making necessary improvements. ;)
 
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JackRT

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Wasn't Mary of Bethany sister to Martha and Lazarus, John 12:1-3?

Yes.

In Luke 7:36-39, the woman who anointed Jesus is not named, whereas in Luke 8:3 Mary Magdalene is named and described as the woman from whom 7 demons had been driven out.

The following is extracted from a sermon I gave many years ago:

We also know that there were a number of female disciples of Jesus - Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, the sisters Mary and Martha, Joanna, Susanna and Salome are all named. Whenever the female disciples are mentioned in the Bible, Mary Magdalene is always the first named. In the literary tradition of the time the first named is always the most important. Mary Magdalene is even named ahead of Mary his mother. Even the name Mary Magdalene may be informative. Mary "of Magdala" seems not to be correct since there is no solid historical or archaeological evidence that there ever was such a town. Another possible interpretation of the word "Magdalene" is that it is derived from an Aramaic word meaning roughly "the most important". Early Christian writers have sometimes referred to her as "Mary the Great" and also as the “Apostle to the Apostles”. Why should such importance be attached to this woman?
Here is an interesting take on the story of Mary and her sister Martha. Martha is scurrying around preparing a meal and is getting a little overheated because Mary is sitting at the feet of Jesus listening to him teach. Martha comes to Jesus and asks him to tell Mary to get up and help her.

The fact that she asked Jesus rather than going directly to her sister says something in and of itself. In that culture a married woman could be directed only by her husband. To go to the wife directly when her husband is present would be an insult to the husband in that very patriarchal society. We can draw each of us our own conclusions here. And yes I do believe that Mary the Magdalene and Mary of Bethany are the same person.

Christian, particularly Catholic tradition, has been very unkind to Mary Magdalene. She has been variously identified as the woman taken in adultery or the woman who washed Jesus' feet with her tears and dried them with her hair or possibly both. She is portrayed as a great sinner who became a great saint. The Gospel of John says that Jesus cast seven demons from her. Some might jump to the conclusion that demonic possession is indicated here. However, we must examine this in the context of the times. Disease was thought to have been caused by invisible demons. We know today that this is wrong - disease is actually caused by invisible germs or viruses. It seems that we have renamed the demons! John is simply saying that Jesus cured her of some unspecified disease. As for the charge that she was a prostitute, that first appeared in a sixth century sermon by Pope Gregory.

Scripture does indicate that she should be ranked on a level with the apostles among the disciples of Jesus. She was the first to the tomb to do what a wife was expected to do for a deceased husband. When she encountered the risen Jesus and finally recognized him, she called him "Rabboni" and "Lord". "Rabboni" is the familiar or affectionate form of "Rabbi", and "Lord" or "Master" is how a Jewish wife would have addressed her husband in that very patriarchal age. Jesus also warned her "do not embrace me". All this is certainly suggestive of a close relationship between the two but stops short of anything definitive.

There are other sources we can turn to for further light on the subject. Almost everyone is aware of the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls in 1947. However, very few are aware of a second major find. Just two years earlier in the Sinai Desert at a place called Nag Hamadi an entire library of about fifty ancient manuscripts was found sealed in a jar in a cave. The Nag Hamadi Library includes the only known copies of the Gospels of Thomas, of James, of Philip and of Mary as well as many other documents.

A passage in the Gospel of Philip states that the three most important women in Jesus' life were all named Mary. They were Mary his mother, Mary his sister and Mary Magdalene his companion. I find, as I am sure you do too, the use of the word companion to be most interesting since it suggests something more personal and more equal than a rabbi / student or a master / disciple relationship.


The Gospel of Mary is a gospel about Mary Magdalene rather than a gospel authored by her. It opens with the apostles bewildered and grieving after the final departure of the resurrected Jesus. Mary assumes a leadership role by comforting and encouraging them. They in turn ask her to reveal to them any teachings that Jesus had imparted to her in private and not to the whole group. The question seems significant in and of itself. She does answer their question but encounters disbelief on the part of Peter. He as much as accuses her of lying saying "Has the Savior spoken secretly to a woman and not openly so that we would all hear? Surely he did not wish to indicate that she is more worthy than we are?" Mary, quite naturally, is very upset by Peter's attack but is defended by Levi (probably Matthew) who says "Peter, you have a constant inclination to anger and you are always ready to give way to it. And even now you are doing exactly that by questioning the woman as if you were her adversary. If the Savior considered her to be worthy, who are you to disregard her? For he knew her completely and loved her devotedly." Once again we are teased but the record stops just short of being unequivocal. We don't quite get a glimpse of the wedding ring!

Returning to the Gospel of Mary, we are told that Jesus often preferred to walk and talk with her to the exclusion of the other disciples and that he frequently kissed her on her …?… Here there is a word missing in the manuscript. We could guess and fill in words like cheek or lips. Missing words are not all that unusual in ancient manuscripts. They naturally tend to deteriorate along the edges with an effect quite similar to tearing a strip from the edge of the page of a book.

The gospel goes on to record that the disciples ask Jesus "Why do you love her more than all of us?" His reply is rather enigmatic "Why do I not love you like her?" Perhaps in answering their question with another question, Jesus is pointing out to them that although he loves them as disciples, he loves her in a different way. Once again much is implied but little is specified.


In 2012 the discovery of a small fragment of a previosly unknown gospel was announced. It has been named the “Gospel of Jesus' Wife.” A partial sentence on this fragment has Jesus say "Jesus said to them, 'my wife' …." The fragment written in the Coptic language of Egypt is thought to be a translation of a Greek text from the second century.

In addition to these ancient records, we can also turn to some not so ancient traditions. There is a strong tradition in the south of France that Mary Magdalene was the first Christian missionary to that region. This is attested to in a stained glass window in the Cathedral of Marseilles that depicts Mary consecrating a bishop! From the fifth through to the eighth centuries this same region of southern France was ruled by the Merovignian dynasty of kings. This unique and most interesting family claimed an incredible family tree. To begin with, they claimed descent from the Tribe of Benjamin which was almost annihilated by the other Jewish tribes. But, more to the point of this investigation, they also claimed lineal blood descent from Jesus through the children of Mary Magdalene. This claim was never disputed by the Church at the time. The descendants of the Merovignian family still reside in France and continue their claim.

While we are talking family here, let me interject another aside. The first fifteen bishops of Jerusalem were all circumcised Jews and most, if not all, claimed a blood relationship to Jesus through his brothers and sisters. The Acts of the Apostles makes it quite clear that the first bishop of Jerusalem and the first head of the early church was James the brother of Jesus and not Peter as we are frequently encouraged to believe.
 
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