The World Needs Women Priests

[Archivist]

Women are not permitted to preach in my church. Frankly I would rather go bowling that listen to some woman prattle on.

They are permitted to preach in mine. And I would rather go bowling than listen to some fundamentalist male pastor prattle on.

 

[Albion]

Except 1 Corinthians does not say anything about pastors, it simply says that women should keep silent.

The topic here is women pastors, however. What's more, the idea of women not speaking in church is very much an eccentric idea held by relatively few churches. By contrast, the all-male priesthood is (as was already discussed) the Apostolic belief and remained unchallenged until recent history. It is a mistake to mix the two as if they are parts of the same concept.

 

[Archivist]

The topic here is women pastors, however. What's more, the idea of women not speaking in church is very much an eccentric idea held by relatively few churches. By contrast, the all-male priesthood is (as was already discussed) the Apostolic belief and remained unchallenged until recent history. It is a mistake to mix the two as if they are parts of the same concept.

But you are applying the verses to the priesthood, something they do not address.

 

[Radagast]

Jesus ordained two priests.
John the Baptist and Mary of Bethany.

Huh?

 

[Archivist]

Huh?

Mary was certainly the first person to preach the Good News of the risen Jesus. I don’t know how that makes her an ordained priest.

 

[GraceBro]

The world needs women priests
to help women in poor countries get an education and jobs.

Jesus ordained two priests.
John the Baptist and Mary of Bethany.

Does the world need women priests?

"You also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ … But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light (1 Peter 2:5, 9)." All born again Christians are priests. Therefore, we already have "women priests." We don't need more or less of anything. God's church is fine and growing despite whatever social and societal measurements we apply to it.

 

[Love365]

Huh?

Jesus let John the Baptist give Him a baptism.
Like a priest.

Jesus let Mary of Bethany anoint Him with holy oil.
Like a priest.
Then Jesus said when you spread the Gospel throughout the world,
Do it in memory of her.

Why?
She was the first woman to be a Christian priest.

 

[Radagast]

Jesus let John the Baptist give Him a baptism.
Like a priest.

Jesus did not ordain John the Baptist.

John the Baptist was in fact born a priest. He was of the sons of Aaron.

She was the first woman to be a Christian priest.

No, she really wasn't.

 

[Albion]

Jesus let John the Baptist give Him a baptism.
Like a priest.

The Hebrews had been doing that for a century before Jesus. It isn't Christian baptism. It had a different meaning and the Bible makes clear the difference between the two.

Jesus let Mary of Bethany anoint Him with holy oil.
Like a priest.

Anointing with oil, which was done for a number of different reasons, does not in itself signify that anyone is being made a priest. The Bible describes approximately ten different purposes for such anointing with oil.

 

[PaulCyp1]

Jesus ordained 12 out of 12 men as His first priests, even though many holy women were available, thereby making His will clear regarding His priesthood. His Church therefore does not have the authority to ordain women, and will never be able to do so.

 

[Strong in Him]

A woman isn't permitted to have authority over a man

Define "have authority over".
Deborah led an entire nation.
Priscilla taught Apollos.
Mary Magdalene went into a roomful of men, told them about the resurrection and gave them a message from the Lord - and Jesus CHOSE her to do that. A woman was the first witness to the resurrection, not one of the men who were hiding in fear.

and is to remain silent.

Paul taught that a woman was allowed to prophecy; how do you think they did that, if they were to be silent?
Are you saying that Paul would have forbidden women from worshipping? Do you insist on that today; women can't read the Scriptures or give testimony to what God is doing, they have to be silent?

How do you think a woman is to remain silent if she's preaching?

For most of the time, no.
But if there was a church whose members were deaf, she could preach using sign language.
If you insist that a woman has to remain silent, that means in worship too - yet there is not Biblical teaching for that.

Wesley has long been regarded as a damnable heretic in my reformed ciricles.

Your reformed circles are wrong.

 

[Strong in Him]

Well, I suppose you could argue that anyone should feel free to do whatever he wants, regardless of all precedent, Scripture, and (in Wesley's case) the vows he made when being ordained. Among these were Wesley's promises to reverently obey his bishop and other chief ministers, acknowledging their authority over him, promising to follow their Godly admonitions and submitting to their judgements...

...but it doesn't make a particularly strong argument.

A person receives a call from God and goes ahead and follows it, even though they meet disagreement, and face opposition from, the established, and religious, authorities - who does that remind you of?
Sounds like most of God's people, tbh; Noah, Moses, David, the prophets, John the Baptist, Jesus, the early church, Christian martyrs etc etc.
Francis of Assissi received opposition from his family when he gave his wealth away and went to live among the poor. Gladys Aylward was turned down by the missionary board to go to China; she went anyway, because she knew that God was calling her to do that. Wilson Carlile was criticised for his ministry among the poor, homeless and alcoholics - so he left the church where he was one of 10 curates, and started the Church Army. William Booth left the Methodist church for a similar reason.

The apostles told the Pharisees "we must obey God rather than men", and people have been doing that throughout history.
Loyalty and obedience to God is not only a very strong argument, but is what all Christians should seek to have, and follow.

 

[Love365]

Jesus ordained 12 out of 12 men as His first priests, even though many holy women were available, thereby making His will clear regarding His priesthood. His Church therefore does not have the authority to ordain women, and will never be able to do so.

First 12 bishops.

The first 12 people to walk on the moon were all men.
Was it the will of God?
Was it the will of man?

 

[Strong in Him]

The topic here is women pastors, however. What's more, the idea of women not speaking in church is very much an eccentric idea held by relatively few churches.

Much depends on how folk interpret 1 Timothy 2:12.

Very often when this subject comes up, people quote the above verse as "proof" that women cannot preach.
But if they are asked if their women stay silent in church, without worshipping, testifying or reading the Scriptures, they either ignore the question or insist that being silent is not literal; in other words, some apply half of this verse literally, but not all of it.
Either this verse is to be applied literally today - which means no speaking at all in church - or it isn't. And also, if it is, the teaching about women snatching authority by force (the meaning of "usurp"), needs to be explained. GOD gives authority, the church recognises that. No snatching by force has taken place; the church has recognised, tested and prayed over a woman's call, accepted it and trained her for ordination.

By contrast, the all-male priesthood is (as was already discussed) the Apostolic belief and remained unchallenged until recent history.

Just because something may go unchallenged for years, does not make it right - neither does it mean that those teaching a new thing are wrong.
God has always worked in new ways - the OT law, animal sacrifices and then God coming to earth in Jesus to be the sacrifice for sin, should tell us that.

 

[Albion]

A person receives a call from God and goes ahead and follows it, even though they meet disagreement, and face opposition from, the established, and religious, authorities - who does that remind you of?

It reminds me of the fact that some Christians are mindful that, as the NT ahd history both teach, Christ founded his church and endowed it with certain responsibilities.

Also, that there are others who are Christians by belief but think that the institutional church, in whichever denomination, isn't needed to spread the faith, defend the faith, administer the sacraments, resolve differences between members, and so on--even though the Bible itself shows us that the church did all of this from the start and was supposed to.

When it comes to a person receiving a call to the ordained ministry, all sorts of people say that they feel called. It is the church once again which is responsible for making the determination, just as it is necessary that the church prepare that person for ordination and then perform the ordination.

I have also encountered people who insist that God has called them to the priesthood and say that this is all that matters, but then expect the institutional church to ordain them!

If they were consistent with their own thinking, it seems that they would not need the church for any ordination and would not expect it, but would simply go out into the highways and byways serving in whatever capacity they felt called to, citing the call received privately from God as their authorization.

 

[Archivist]

Jesus ordained 12 out of 12 men as His first priests, even though many holy women were available, thereby making His will clear regarding His priesthood. His Church therefore does not have the authority to ordain women, and will never be able to do so.

He also ordained 12 out of 12 Jews as his first priests, so I guess that means that only Jews can be priests.

 

[Albion]

Much depends on how folk interpret 1 Timothy 2:12.

Much depends on the half-dozen different reasons that traditionalists cite as the reasons for retaining the ordained ministry.

It's not that there is only one. And while there are some Christians who take the "women silent in church" idea to be conclusive when it comes to women's ordination, most churches that do not ordain women quite freely admit that some women are better at the art of preaching than some men and these churches do not cite that verse as a reason for their belief.

 

[buzuxi02]

The world needs women priests
to help women in poor countries get an education and jobs.

This is the kind of cognitive dissonance permeating western thought.

Why would clergy be responsible for education and employment opportunities?

And why should only women be educated and employed in poor countries?

And who the heck ever said Jesus ordained John the Baptist and Mary of Bethany as priests? And how would they tie in to educating people for employment?

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

The world needs women priests
to help women in poor countries get an education and jobs.

Jesus ordained two priests.
John the Baptist and Mary of Bethany.

Does the world need women priests?

Where did Jesus anoint either of those as priests.

 

[Love365]

Jesus let John the Baptist give Him a baptism.
Like a priest.

Jesus let Mary of Bethany anoint Him with holy oil.
Like a priest.
Then Jesus said when you spread the Gospel throughout the world,
Do it in memory of her.

Why?
She was the first woman to be a Christian priest.