Why are most Christians so accepting of magic

[thecolorsblend]

C.S. Lewis does make some pagan statements that are not good.

He makes hyperbolic statements to make a point.

"Lewis once said that if you're not going to be a Christian, the next best thing is to be a good Norseman, because "the Norse pagans sided with the good gods…" (The Sign of The Grail by C.J.S. Hayward).

For one, that's hearsay afaik.

For two, assuming that's an authentic quote, it tells me that Lewis understood that paganism is simply non-Christian religion. A lot of American Protestants don't seem to realize that there's a significant difference between paganism (which isn't good but also is not intentionally evil) and satanic doctrine (which also isn't good but is intentionally evil).

To be clear, this is not apologetics for paganism. People should be Christians. Other religions are false in their to-to. But at the same time, it's a bit ludicrous to suggest that truth of some kind cannot be found in those religions. Indeed, it can be. And that acknowledgement is a major reason why Christianity has historically been quite successful as a missionary religion.

He also once dared to slyly suggest, "First let us make the younger generation good pagans and afterwards let us make them Christians" (C.S. Lewis letter from Yours, Jack; p. 219).

Considering the irreligion he was commenting upon that was spreading through Europe at that time, I can understand where he was coming from. Even so, iirc, Lewis was not a Christian at the time that he made that statement.

"It is only since I have become a Christian that I have learned really to value the elements of truth in Paganism and Idealism. I wished to value them in the old days; now I really do.

Those sound like the words of a former atheist to me.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Do you view his 'Screwtape Letters' in the same way?
In his book, he writes about a dialogue between two demons to help Christians understand the nature of the spiritual battle around them.

This is fiction but refers to demonic dialogue.

Is this equally bad?

I don't have enough information about the book to talk about it.
Heaven's War is a good movie about spiritual warfare (Whereby demons speak so as to deceive men, etc.). But this is in context to the truth (i.e. the promotion of the gospel, and in living for Christ).

The Narnia series makes no distinction as such. It merely shows the good guys doing magic, or sorcery and no prophet of God is there to rebuke them and to tell them to repent or they will perish. Sorcery is a sin.

What about Pilgrims progress?

This refers to wicked entities trying to impede the growth of believers.

I don't have enough information about the book or films to say about this fictional work, either.

By the way I am trying to get a grip on what you think is OK and what is not - I am not doubting the validity of your position.

I would also be fascinated to know if your journey to Jesus involved being delivered from occult involvement.

I was not delivered from the occult exactly. But I did play role playing games that promoted witchcraft. I did desire to want to cast a real spell as a result of my playing role playing games. But nothing came of it. I did not take following the occult seriously. I just had a passing interest because of the games I played.

I think also that whether or not Lewis promotes sin is the pivotal issue.

I fail to understand how you cannot see that Lewis promotes the sin of sorcery in his fictional works. The Old Testament clearly stoned anyone who was into sorcery. Yet, Lewis does not seem to care about that and he makes it appear like doing sorcery or magic can be good (When this is not the case according to the Bible).

I classify other well known fiction as a soft sell of the occult but I haven't felt the same about Lewis.

Not sure if you caught the occult statements I posted by him. They are pretty condemning to say the least. But even without these statements, his fictional works that makes no condemnation upon his fantasy world of the sin of sorcery as being good and or okay is bad enough.

Maybe it is our culture that is to blame. Our culture grew up feeding us the lie that magic was harmless and fun. Witches in Halloween, the magic of St. Nicholas in Christmas, the magic of the tooth fairy, the magic of the Easter bunny. Magic is promoted in toys, commercials, movies as being a neutral force. Even our culture uses words like "magic" as if to mean something that is not evil but as a phrase of something extraordinary. But God's Word condemns any form of sorcery, magic, or witchcraft.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

He makes hyperbolic statements to make a point.
For one, that's hearsay afaik.

For two, assuming that's an authentic quote, it tells me that Lewis understood that paganism is simply non-Christian religion. A lot of American Protestants don't seem to realize that there's a significant difference between paganism (which isn't good but also is not intentionally evil) and satanic doctrine (which also isn't good but is intentionally evil).

To be clear, this is not apologetics for paganism. People should be Christians. Other religions are false in their to-to. But at the same time, it's a bit ludicrous to suggest that truth of some kind cannot be found in those religions. Indeed, it can be. And that acknowledgement is a major reason why Christianity has historically been quite successful as a missionary religion.
Considering the irreligion he was commenting upon that was spreading through Europe at that time, I can understand where he was coming from. Even so, iirc, Lewis was not a Christian at the time that he made that statement.
Those sound like the words of a former atheist to me.

The pagan statements made by Lewis aside, his fictional works are condemning in of themselves. Unless one does not think the sin of sorcery is wrong, I fail to see how you think that the promotion of such a sin (without any condemnation) is okay. Again, insert into blank space any kind of sin you like in the place of sorcery into C.S. Lewis's fictional works and you will have yourself a promotion of particular sin.

Imagine if C.S. Lewis wrote about sexual immorality in his books and he tried to make this sin okay because it was in a fictional world, and he tried to point out how the sexual immorality pointed to something good in the Bible. Would that make it any better? No. Sexual immorality is just as much a mortal sin, as witchcraft is a mortal sin.

 

[thecolorsblend]

The pagan statements made by Lewis aside, his fictional works are condemning in of themselves.

Aye, and there's the rub. It's been since forever since I read any of that Narnia stuff. So I haven't retained much of it.

Who specifically uses magic in the Narnia series?

Is that magic replicable irl?

What are the consequences of those characters using magic? Positive or negative?

The reasons I ask are because (1) I honestly don't remember and (2) there is such a thing as context. For example. I have no problem whatsoever with magic as its shown in The Lord Of The Rings. But the way magic is depicted in Harry Potter (books or movies) should gravely concern anybody who understands what irl magic is really like.

If Lewis strayed from Tolkien's approach to the depictions of magic then there might be something to get concerned about with Lewis.

Sexual immorality is just as much a mortal sin, as witchcraft is a mortal sin.

We definitely agree on that.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Aye, and there's the rub. It's been since forever since I read any of that Narnia stuff. So I haven't retained much of it.

Who specifically uses magic in the Narnia series?

Is that magic replicable irl?

What are the consequences of those characters using magic? Positive or negative?

The reasons I ask are because (1) I honestly don't remember and (2) there is such a thing as context. For example. I have no problem whatsoever with magic as its shown in The Lord Of The Rings. But the way magic is depicted in Harry Potter (books or movies) should gravely concern anybody who understands what irl magic is really like.

If Lewis strayed from Tolkien's approach to the depictions of magic then there might be something to get concerned about with Lewis.

We definitely agree on that.

The Voyage of the Dawn Treader" is the third book in the Narnia series. It directly promotes spells and magic.

Chapter 10 ("The Magician's Book") features a book of spells that is on an island inhabited by invisible creatures called Dufflepuds. Lucy works a spell to make the Dufflepuds visible. She goes through a spell book. Then she finds the right spell and says the words and follows the instructions. And then the Dufflepuds (and Aslan) become visible. Her spell made Aslan visible, and he is pleased with what she did.

One spell is illustrated with pictures of bees that look as if they are really flying. In the world of C.S. Lewis’ day, this would not have caused practical problems. However, these days, kids can go to regular bookstores and buy spell books written by modern witches.

Many Christians are treating the Narnia books as being an allegory, with Aslan representing Jesus and the children representing Christians. If you do this with “The Voyage of the Dawn Treader,” then you portray Jesus as being pleased when Christians do magic and work spells. And you support the idea that that there are “good” spells and “good” magic. That belief is the basis for modern “white” witchcraft. However, the Bible clearly forbids any form of witchcraft:

"There shall not be found among you anyone who... practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD." (Deuteronomy 18:10-12)

Source:
Trouble in Narnia: The Occult Side of C.S. Lewis

In other words, if a character (in the series) casts a spell, that is clearly a practice of sorcery that the Bible condemns. There is never an instance where casting a spell or sorcery is ever approved of by God. So Lewis promoting the sin of witchcraft in the series (with no correction upon such a sin). It does not matter if the sin of witchcraft leads to a positive solution or not (if there is no correction on the sin of witchcraft itself). The same can be said if adultery was promoted in the film. If a person commits adultery, and the result lead them to a happy ending, it is even worse because it is teaching that good things will happen to you if you sin. Both adultery and sorcery are a promotion of sin if such a thing is not corrected or rebuked.

 

[thecolorsblend]

It does not matter if the consequences are positive or negative in the series.

Of course it matters. It matters a great deal.

If magic is used by a protagonist and horrible things ensue, that's a pretty biblically sound plot development.

If magic is used by a protagonist and positive things ensue... yeah, you're right to be leery.

Context matters.

It does not matter if the result are positive or not.

Again, it matters a great deal.

If a person commits adultery, and the result lead them to a happy ending, it does not matter if there is no correction on the adultery or on the act of witchcraft. Both are promotion of sin if such a thing is not corrected or rebuked.

You're missing it. Morality plays all through history have been intended to show the consequences wrong decisions. Using magic (or committing adultery) is the wrong decision. If it's shown to be the wrong decision in the narrative then the narrative is conveying an important moral.

But if magic (or committing adultery) is shown to be positive or even to be neutral, it's a horrible moral and that story/novel/show/film/whatever should be avoided.

Why? Because context matters.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Of course it matters. It matters a great deal.

If magic is used by a protagonist and horrible things ensue, that's a pretty biblically sound plot development.

If magic is used by a protagonist and positive things ensue... yeah, you're right to be leery.

Context matters.

Again, it matters a great deal.

You're missing it. Morality plays all through history have been intended to show the consequences wrong decisions. Using magic (or committing adultery) is the wrong decision. If it's shown to be the wrong decision in the narrative then the narrative is conveying an important moral.

But if magic (or committing adultery) is shown to be positive or even to be neutral, it's a horrible moral and that story/novel/show/film/whatever should be avoided.

Why? Because context matters.

Lucy is never corrected by God or any person of God for casting a spell. It is the normal thing in this universe that it is accepting of magic or sorcery. The series does not lead one to think magic or sorcery is bad, but that is neutral like it is the "Force" in Star Wars. But the Bible condemns sorcery of any kind. Therein lies the difference.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Lucy is never corrected by God or any person of God for casting a spell. It is the normal thing in this universe that it is accepting of magic or sorcery. The series does not lead one to think magic or sorcery is bad, but that is neutral like it is the "Force" in Star Wars. But the Bible condemns sorcery of any kind. Therein lies the difference.

I would need to read it in context. But still, the way you describe it makes it seem to me like Lewis made a serious error.

Whatever though, I'm more of a Middle-earth guy than a Narnia guy anyway. But at least now I have another reason to avoid the Narnia books.

 

[bèlla]

Do you view his 'Screwtape Letters' in the same way?

The Screwtape Letters is an excellent treatise on spiritual warfare if you dig into it. I read the book after my lengthy battle and saw many things I encountered.

Where Lewis excels is describing the small vexations which create larger issues over time. Most assume that Satan targets big sins. But I’ve found he fixes on weak spots and will aim for smaller wins for the bigger gains to come.

The audio version with John Cleese is hilarious!

[quoteWhat about Pilgrims progress?[/quote]

It was a good book but I think Screwtape is meatier.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I would need to read it in context. But still, the way you describe it makes it seem to me like Lewis made a serious error.

Whatever though, I'm more of a Middle-earth guy than a Narnia guy anyway. But at least now I have another reason to avoid the Narnia books.

I would encourage you to check out this Christian article here.
It is an eye opener; Even for me.

Blessings to you in the Lord today.

 

[thecolorsblend]

I would encourage you to check out this Christian article here.
It is an eye opener; Even for me.

Blessings to you in the Lord today.

Oh dear. The writer of that hackjob blog knows very little about Tolkien's Legendarium and even less about literature in general.

Sad, really.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

When I first became a christian I put my TV in the closet and I did not watch it at all. When I finally did watch TV again, it was to watch the Olympics or something that I did not feel would interfere with my walk with God.

With magic I think Penn and Teller is an interesting pair. Penn has no problems telling a lie as he is an atheist and it would appear that atheist do not have a problem with lies. Teller seems to have a problem telling lies. Even though deception, even morbid deception does not seem to be an issue for him.

Interesting story that Penn talks about a Christian who gave him a Bible:

The man complimented Jillette on the show, then said, “I brought this for you.” The man held up a small book. It was a New Testament with the Psalms, something that could fit in a person’s pocket.

“I wrote in the front of it,” the man said, “and I wanted you to have this.” The man explained he was a businessman and not crazy.

Jillette, moved by the man’s gesture, recalled: “He was kind, and nice, and sane, and looked me in the eyes, and talked to me, and then gave me this Bible.”

“I’ve always said,” Jillette explained, “I don’t respect people who don’t proselytize. I don’t respect that at all. If you believe there is a heaven and hell, and people could be going to hell or not getting eternal life or whatever, and you think it’s not really worth telling them this because it would make it socially awkward.

“How much do you have to hate somebody to not proselytize? How much do you have to hate someone to believe everlasting life is possible and not tell them that?”

Jillette then offered this example to illustrate his point: “If I believed, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that a truck was coming at you, and you didn’t believe it, that that truck was bearing down on you, there’s a certain point that I tackle you, and this is more important than that.”

“This guy was a really good guy. He was polite, honest, and sane, and he cared enough about me to proselytize and give me a Bible.”

Now, Jillette is still an atheist, and he wanted to make that clear: “I know there’s no God, and one polite person living his life right doesn’t change that.

“But I’ll tell you, he was a very, very, very good man. And that’s really important. And with that kind of goodness, it’s okay to have that deep of a disagreement.

“I still think religion does a lot of bad stuff, but, man, that was a good man who gave me that book. That’s all I wanted to say.”

 

[joshua 1 9]

Now, Jillette is still an atheist, and he wanted to make that clear: “I know there’s no God, and one polite person living his life right doesn’t change that.

He was raised Mormon and he is living in a city that has a heavy population of Mormons. That means this is still a discussion between him and the Mormon Church. He does not seem to know much about Christianity outside of what he has learned from Mormons.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The Narnia movies do this...great themes. No problems whatsoever.

The Old Testament strongly condemns witchcraft. If a person lived during the time of the Old Testament, and they practiced witchcraft, they would have been killed by the Israelites (if they were aware of them and faithful to God's Word). The New Testament also condemns witchcraft. So the Narnia series are not Christian just because they have that label slapped on to them. It would be no different than promoting inappropriate content in a movie, and slapping a label of Christian on it. Both are serious sins in the eyes of God.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

The Old Testament strongly condemns witchcraft. If a person lived during the time of the Old Testament, and they practiced witchcraft, they would have been killed by the Israelites (if they were aware of them and faithful to God's Word). The New Testament also condemns witchcraft. So the Narnia series are not Christian just because they have that label slapped on to them. It would be no different than promoting inappropriate content in a movie, and slapping a label of Christian on it. Both are serious sins in the eyes of God.

You're right. They're Christian because of the themes they explore and promote. Have you even read anything by CS Lewis?

 

[timewerx]

When Christians crave for the supernatural but doesn't find it in the church anymore. Everyone has gone lukewarm. It's all about money and conforming to the evil world these days. The soul is so sick of it, it's staring to look at the wrong places.

 

[steve78]

There is no such thing as Magic, it's all trickey and illusion so pretty harmless and Christians should not worry about it.

Witchcraft is not magic, that's supernatural. However the supernatural is also trickery using advanced technology.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You're right. They're Christian because of the themes they explore and promote. Have you even read anything by CS Lewis?

I have read C.S. Lewis.

The Voyage of the Dawn Treader" is the third book in the Narnia series. It directly promotes spells and magic.

Chapter 10 ("The Magician's Book") features a book of spells that is on an island inhabited by invisible creatures called Dufflepuds. Lucy works a spell to make the Dufflepuds visible. She goes through a spell book. Then she finds the right spell and says the words and follows the instructions. And then the Dufflepuds (and Aslan) become visible. Her spell made Aslan visible, and he is pleased with what she did.

One spell is illustrated with pictures of bees that look as if they are really flying. In the world of C.S. Lewis’ day, this would not have caused practical problems. However, these days, kids can go to regular bookstores and buy spell books written by modern witches.

Many Christians are treating the Narnia books as being an allegory, with Aslan representing Jesus and the children representing Christians. If you do this with “The Voyage of the Dawn Treader,” then you portray Jesus as being pleased when Christians do magic and work spells. And you support the idea that that there are “good” spells and “good” magic. That belief is the basis for modern “white” witchcraft. However, the Bible clearly forbids any form of witchcraft:

"There shall not be found among you anyone who... practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD." (Deuteronomy 18:10-12)

Source:
Trouble in Narnia: The Occult Side of C.S. Lewis

In other words, if a character (in the series) casts a spell, that is clearly a practice of sorcery that the Bible condemns. There is never an instance where casting a spell or sorcery is ever approved of by God. So Lewis promoting the sin of witchcraft in the series (with no correction upon such a sin). It does not matter if the sin of witchcraft leads to a positive solution or not (if there is no correction on the sin of witchcraft itself). The same can be said if adultery was promoted in the film. If a person commits adultery, and the result lead them to a happy ending, it is even worse because it is teaching that good things will happen to you if you sin. Both adultery and sorcery are a promotion of sin if such a thing is not corrected or rebuked.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Kids have actually wanted to dabble in real magic or sorcery as a result of Harry Potter. So if they are not similar then why would then why would they do such a thing? It's because Harry Potter and Narnia are promoting witchcraft.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There is no such thing as Magic, it's all trickey and illusion so pretty harmless and Christians should not worry about it.

Witchcraft is not magic, that's supernatural. However the supernatural is also trickery using advanced technology.

Come on now. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that the fantasy magic used in movies is a representation of the real sorcery or magic used by those who are witches or sorcerers. That would be like saying a cartoon dog is not based upon a real dog in any way. Even if it is not exactly identical, it is at the core the same concept. Ex witches turned Christian can spot a ton of the same occult things in these books and movies. Just read their testimonies.

If the Narnia series were true Christian movies, then that means a person can label a inappropriate content movie as Christian because it has Christian elements within it. Such talk is ridiculousness.