Breaking Mask Requirements to Red States

[LostMarbels]

I don't mean this as any personal affront, but if the EH&S person who was responsible for the team I was working on said anything even remotely like this I'd do the following:

1. Contact management and seek a transfer for myself OUT of that group
2. Go on Indeed.com ASAP and try to get as far away from that company as possible.

Then, I'd probably also move very far away from the town that housed the production facilities.

That is both hilarious, and understandable. Oh, that's funny.

 

[LostMarbels]

@istodolez

Only thing I can say in my defense is this is now not then. Still, funny. Aptly made point.

 

[LostMarbels]

Why go to Walmart when you could just stick that strawman on your face and be done with it?

Sorry, that is not how it works. I show you that the largest particle that covid can be is half the size of the smallest particle a N95 can handle and you say it is a straw man? Look it up.

.3 microns. That is the best you will get in a paper mask. If I'm not mistaken the smallest covid can get is .06? Will recheck, but that is so small much of it will not even touch the mask. You do not just magically capture particles that are several times smaller than the filters smallest holes.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

You do not just magically capture particles that are several times smaller than the filters smallest holes.

You do when they are contained in droplets of liquid that are larger than those holes.

 

[LostMarbels]

You do when they are contained in droplets of liquid that are larger than those holes.

Yeah, a single water molecule gets down to .000282 microns. So .06 is not a problem.

 

[jgarden]

What makes you think the corrections were right?

It's now a scientific fact....masks don't work.

Over 20 states now have announced the need to wear masks in public with Texas and Colorado joining the list!

An increasing number of retail businesses have joined Walmart in requiring that their customers wear masks to protect those around them!

As Republican politicians and American businesses continue to make public pronouncements about the need for masks, this President has marooned himself on an island of one!

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Yeah, a single water molecule gets down to .000282 microns. So .06 is not a problem.

And now we're back to my original question: do you understand van der Waals forces? You're not breathing or coughing out individual water molecules.

Here's a very detailed analysis of literature on aerosol/droplet transmission of viruses, as well as a discussion of masks, from an ER doctor: Aerosols, Droplets, and Airborne Spread: Everything you could possibly want to know - First10EM.

 

[istodolez]

Here's some fun stuff from UCSF:

Still Confused About Masks? Here’s the Science Behind How Face Masks Prevent Coronavirus

And heres' some info from The American Chemical Society discussing droplets etc:

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsnano.0c03252

They are modeling in the 10 nm to 10 μm size regime since that is most applicable to respiratory virus transmission.

They are especially interested in (as Rocks has noted) respiratory droplets. And remember these are droplets, not individual water molecules. So we're up in the range of 10nm-10um in size (broad range, yes).

From the article:
"Filtration of aerosols follows five basic mechanisms: gravity sedimentation, inertial impaction, interception, diffusion, and electrostatic attraction.(23,24) For aerosols larger than ∼1 μm to 10 μm, the first two mechanisms play a role, where ballistic energy or gravity forces are the primary influence on the large exhaled droplets. As the aerosol size decreases, diffusion by Brownian motion and mechanical interception of particles by the filter fibers is a predominant mechanism in the 100 nm to 1 μm range. For nanometer-sized particles, which can easily slip between the openings in the network of filter fibers, electrostatic attraction predominates the removal of low mass particles which are attracted to and bind to the fibers. Electrostatic filters are generally most efficient at low velocities such as the velocity encountered by breathing through a face mask.(25)"


Seems to me that Rocks is spot on. We aren't talking about simply filtering out individual viruses randomly floating in the air but rather virus particles entrained in respiratory droplets. The dynamics of the system are dramatically more complex than simply looking at a virus size and saying "the mesh is too big!"

Also note that the investigators discuss electrostatic adsorption and capture by the fibers as well, so there's still a role to be played by the fibers, even if the mesh is much larger than an individual virus particle.

(istodolez now remembers he's on CF so discussing the science will go exactly nowhere)

 

[jgarden]

We do not know how many have died. Why can you not understand the concept of inflated numbers comingled with other data? Same goes with active cases.

After 4 years of the Trump Administration, we've gone down this road before - when the facts don't support their agenda, then it must be the facts that are wrong and then the President and his followers do everything in their power to "muddy the waters" and cast doubt on their reliability!

The only problem is that during a Pandemic people have the bad habit of testing positive and dying which makes this President look bad - one strategy adopted by authoritarian leaders to address these kinds of situations is to control the collection and release of relevant data so that when Trump boasts that the situation is under control, the statistics his critics could use to prove otherwise has been withheld!

Before such a scenario is dismissed as partisan speculation because it could never happen in a modern democracy, the Israeli government is attempting to withhold the healthcare statistics associated with their failed attempt to reopen their education system too quickly, without investing in the proper safeguards - sounds familiar!

 

[loveofourlord]

That is why Trump, by the HHS, is counting death certificates against covid death reports.

yeah....because trump has ZERO reason to make up the death statistics so he won't lose the election..

 

[SimplyMe]

Am I the only person on this earth that understands 6 feet? Do not touch your face or mouth? Wash your hands/use sanitizer, and respect other peoples space?

I mean how difficult is it?

This is kindergarten simple. Don't eat paste. Don't put foreign objects including your own fingers in your mouth. Don't touch other people. Respect others space.

You have seen the research that says 6 feet isn't enough social distancing, at least without masks, that likely without masks it should be at least 10 feet -- and very likely even more? This sheet from the University of Oxford Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine claims that the virus can spread up to 8m (26 feet). This is the primary reason for the mask, to try and bring that 8m down to 2m, or six feet for those of us in the US. But this is the issue and the big reason for masks -- and a major reason they are recommended now when they weren't recommended when it was thought that it couldn't spread more than 2m.

It still sounds like your major issue is that there isn't enough "education" on the masks, how to properly wear and care for them. On that front, though, it seems like you should be blaming the President for some of that -- for claiming we shouldn't wear masks, that it is somehow a political statement against him for wearing a mask. If, instead, he had encouraged wearing masks and provided instruction and support for education, I suspect people would be doing much better in wearing masks combined with social distancing and personal hygiene.

 

[Sparagmos]

Sorry, that is not how it works. I show you that the largest particle that covid can be is half the size of the smallest particle a N95 can handle and you say it is a straw man? Look it up.

.3 microns. That is the best you will get in a paper mask. If I'm not mistaken the smallest covid can get is .06? Will recheck, but that is so small much of it will not even touch the mask. You do not just magically capture particles that are several times smaller than the filters smallest holes.

Why do you keep talking of particle size when we all know the particles are suspended in droplets which are much larger?

 

[LostMarbels]

From the article:
"Filtration of aerosols follows five basic mechanisms: gravity sedimentation, inertial impaction, interception, diffusion, and electrostatic attraction.(23,24) For aerosols larger than ∼1 μm to 10 μm, the first two mechanisms play a role, where ballistic energy or gravity forces are the primary influence on the large exhaled droplets. As the aerosol size decreases, diffusion by Brownian motion and mechanical interception of particles by the filter fibers is a predominant mechanism in the 100 nm to 1 μm range. For nanometer-sized particles, which can easily slip between the openings in the network of filter fibers, electrostatic attraction predominates the removal of low mass particles which are attracted to and bind to the fibers. Electrostatic filters are generally most efficient at low velocities

1 μm to 10 μm

1 to 10 microns

100 nm to 1 μm

1 micron

The emergence of a pandemic affecting the respiratory system can result in a significant demand for face masks. This includes the use of cloth masks by large sections of the public, as can be seen during the current global spread of COVID-19. However, there is limited knowledge available on the performance of various commonly available fabrics used in cloth masks. Importantly, there is a need to evaluate filtration efficiencies as a function of aerosol particulate sizes in the 10 nm to 10 μm range, which is particularly relevant for respiratory virus transmission. We have carried out these studies for several common fabrics including cotton, silk, chiffon, flannel, various synthetics, and their combinations.


10 microns is huge it the world of viruses.

Although the filtration efficiencies for various fabrics when a single layer was used ranged from 5 to 80% and 5 to 95% for particle sizes of <300 nm and >300 nm, respectively, the efficiencies improved when multiple layers were used and when using a specific combination of different fabrics. Filtration efficiencies of the hybrids (such as cotton–silk, cotton–chiffon, cotton–flannel) was >80% (for particles <300 nm) and >90% (for particles >300 nm).


From 5% to 95% efficiency @ .3 microns.

We speculate that the enhanced performance of the hybrids is likely due to the combined effect of mechanical and electrostatic-based filtration. Cotton, the most widely used material for cloth masks performs better at higher weave densities (i.e., thread count) and can make a significant difference in filtration efficiencies. Our studies also imply that gaps (as caused by an improper fit of the mask) can result in over a 60% decrease in the filtration efficiency, implying the need for future cloth mask design studies to take into account issues of “fit” and leakage, while allowing the exhaled air to vent efficiently. Overall, we find that combinations of various commonly available fabrics used in cloth masks can potentially provide significant protection against the transmission of aerosol particles.

Awsome science there.

 

[LostMarbels]

Duplicate

 

[LostMarbels]

Why do you keep talking of particle size when we all know the particles are suspended in droplets which are much larger?

“most penetrating particle size” MPPS. Look it up. On a N95 that is .3 microns. There is a particle size at which none of the “mechanical” collection mechanisms (interception, impaction, or diffusion) is particularly effective. That is the masks rating, i.e. 95% @ .3 microns. Or a MERV rating for HVAC units in buildings.

 

[LostMarbels]

It still sounds like your major issue is that there isn't enough "education" on the masks, how to properly wear and care for them.

Very, very true. This isn't a political issue. This is potentially lethal. If you go into an affected area with the wrong protection, you are dead, or become a causality. This entire notion that a paper mask, cloth mask, or even any mask/respirator will filter all particulates, is insane.

Not all masks are APF rated (air protection factor) to remove aerosol particulates from the air. Such as surgical masks, food prep masks, cloth masks and the like. But a N95 is a APF 10. This means it filters out everything down to 1/10th of the contamination up to it's MPPS rating. Hence, N (95%) @ .3 microns. But here's the catch, it is rated at .3 microns. Anything smaller than .3 microns is not accounted for in it's MPPS (efficacy) rating. So, it is not rated for anything smaller, and would not be safe to use for particulates smaller than .3 microns.

In translation, this mask would be utterly useless at stopping a virus half the size of the smallest particle it is rated to handle. Mind you, even at its own rated level it allows 1/10th to pass through. A particle half it's rated size would encounter almost no resistance.

 

[jgarden]

Breaking Mask Requirements to Red States

The Director of the CDC is now on the record that if the whole nation was to wear masks outside their places of residence for the next 6 weeks, the incidence of COVID-19 would be reduced dramatically!

This may/may not be overly optimistic but one would assume that given the lack of viable alternatives in their toolbox, this White House would be taking that advice seriously, rather than orchestrating personal attacks to undermine the public's confidence in the nation's foremost medical authorities!

In the case of Dr. Fauci, he has quietly stared down this President and the White House in their misguided attempts to prevent the most popular man in America from "speaking truth to power" - apparently it was Trump and his merry band of "deplorables" that were forced to blink first!

 

[LostMarbels]

This is funny.

 

[KCfromNC]

After 4 years of the Trump Administration, we've gone down this road before - when the facts don't support their agenda, then it must be the facts that are wrong and then the President and his followers do everything in their power to "muddy the waters" and cast doubt on their reliability!

The only problem is that during a Pandemic people have the bad habit of testing positive and dying which makes this President look bad - one strategy adopted by authoritarian leaders to address these kinds of situations is to control the collection and release of relevant data so that when Trump boasts that the situation is under control, the statistics his critics could use to prove otherwise has been withheld!

Before such a scenario is dismissed as partisan speculation because it could never happen in a modern democracy, the Israeli government is attempting to withhold the healthcare statistics associated with their failed attempt to reopen their education system too quickly, without investing in the proper safeguards - sounds familiar!

Not to mention that Donald has specifically said that he believes that reducing testing will lead to a lower number of cases, so it isn't as if people are just making this up. Well, I mean he's making stuff up. I mean the people who actually look at the real test data.

 

[Nithavela]

Over 20 states now have announced the need to wear masks in public with Texas and Colorado joining the list!

An increasing number of retail businesses have joined Walmart in requiring that their customers wear masks to protect those around them!

As Republican politicians and American businesses continue to make public pronouncements about the need for masks, this President has marooned himself on an island of one!

Welcome to april, USA.