[moved] Where does God's Wrath begin in Revelation?

[Douggg]

Daniel cannot address an antichrist, because the world had to wait for the first Christ.

But they were expecting the promised messiah (called Christ John 4:25). I think your point would be well taken if you said they were not/are not expecting the Antichrist. I get that argument all the time from Jews saying the concept of an Antichrist is not in the Tanach.

 

[Timtofly]

But they were expecting the promised messiah (called Christ John 4:25). I think your point would be well taken if you said they were not/are not expecting the Antichrist. I get that argument all the time from Jews saying the concept of an Antichrist is not in the Tanach.

The promised Messiah is Hebrew for anointed. Christos is Greek for anointed.

As pointed out, a Greek would not proclaim himself a christos. Unless he could convince the Hebrews his Davidic heritage. He would have to be a prophet first.

But no OT scripture is going to have antichrist. Now the dead Sea Scrolls might. They were today's modern dispensationalist warning about false Messiahs. If they wrote in Greek, it may translate to antichrist.

God did not confuse His people about false christ warnings before He Himself had come. The prophesies about Christ himself were front and center.

It should be that way today as well. We are not looking for any antichrist. We are only supposed to be looking and prepared for Christ, the Lamb of God. God will take care of the rest and other stuff.

 

[iamlamad]

Some significant things to note once the 7th trumpet has sounded.

1) The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

2) And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come

3) the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great

4) there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

But if the great tribulation follows, AKA the 42 month reign of the beast, how can 1) above already be true before the beast reigns, and that when the beast reigns, the kingdoms of this world have not already become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ, if the kingdoms of this world are aligned with the beast at the time instead?

It is what we call delegated authority. The Beast could do NOTHING unless it was delegated to him by God. We learned from Abraham that when God is going to do some serious destruction (think Sodom and Gomorrah) He wants witnesses. If we follow along, the first 42 months is when the man of sin moves to Jerusalem with his Gentile army. They are who will trample the city. This is just days before he will enter the temple and stop the daily sacrifices.

Then, because He showed up (the man of sin) God sends the two witnesses. Now it is 3 1/2 days before the man of sin will cause the abomination. Then after those 3 1/2 days, he will enter the temple and declare he is God, and the daily sacrifices cease.The 7th trumpet will mark that moment in heaven. Seconds later, those in Judea who see the abomination will begin to flee, as we read in 12:6.

The 7th trumpet will also be the signal for Michael to go to war with Satan. He is cast down, filled with wrath. He will - without much doubt - possess the man of sin who will turn BEAST. The days of great tribulation will begin. He will go after the woman who has fled, but failing there will turn and go after all who follow Jesus - but there is only a remnant left after the pretrib rapture.

It is written in stone, so to speak, that the Beast will get his 42 months of authority. But it is GOD'S PLAN, not the beasts: He is going to do what God planned from before the foundation of the earth.

Some people think this cannot be because in the Old Covenant it is written that GOD ALONE is exalted in that day. My answer would be: from who was the kingdoms take from and to whom where they given? Who delegated the 42 months to who? Who in the end throws who into the lake of fire? It is easy to see who alone is exalted.

Note: we have to take what is written as it is written. Many people imagine they must rearrange it to fit their theory, but they will always be proven wrong.

 

[iamlamad]

Some significant things to note once the 7th trumpet has sounded.

1) The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

2) And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come

3) the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great

4) there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
...
If 2) is already true, followed by the 42 month reign of the beast, then where does Revelation 13 depict the nations are angry at the time because His wrath has come?

The first thing we should recognize is that John wrote things he SAW, and things he HEARD. So came from angels, some from God, but occasionally some was prophecy given by the elders. "2" and "3" above is what the elders said. Are those words for the timeframe of chapter 11 - or are they given as prophecy - foretelling things in the future? Can we find any judging and rewards later on in Revelation? Yes, in chapter 20. Therefore I take what the elders say as prophecy of soon coming events.

Second, if we example the Greek verb tenses behind "were angry" and "is come," we find Greek aorist verbs. For this type of verb, Strong's tells us:

"Is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time. There is no direct or clear English equivalent for this tense," (Emphasis added)

In other words, we cannot tell any timing from this verse: Wrath could have come before this point, is active at that time, or may start in the future. We cannot tell from this verse alone. Since John already told us of the Day of His wrath at the 6th seal, I think we can assume that God did not let go of His wrath, but is still very much angry with the world.

Question: do you think perhaps the nations might be angry from the first two woes?

 

[iamlamad]

Some significant things to note once the 7th trumpet has sounded.

1) The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

2) And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come

3) the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great

4) there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
...
If 4) is already true, followed by the 42 month reign of the beast, then where does Revelation 13 ever depict lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail, at the beginning of it, or even during it?

Notice how this was written:
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

It is written as if the earthquake and hail were in the temple in heaven. I don't think so. I think this follows with the prophecy of the elders: it is forecasting what is soon to come. Does that mean it must happen in chapter 13? Not at all! A prophecy to cover the next 3 1/2 years is very reasonable. Do we see at least one earthquake written after chapter 11? Certainly we do, the world's worst at the 7th vial, and included: HAIL.

Therefore I take verse 19 as a forecast of soon to come events.

 

[iamlamad]

Some significant things to note once the 7th trumpet has sounded.

1) The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

2) And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come

3) the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great

4) there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

If 2) is already true, thy wrath has come, followed by the 42 month reign of the beast, why is Revelation 13:4 asking the questions---Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? Why would something silly like that be being asked if His wrath has already come before this is even asked?

If 2) is already true, thy wrath has come, followed by the 42 month reign of the beast, how is that Revelation 13:7 is able to be fulfilled, especially the part about---and to overcome them? Wouldn't that make the beast far more powerful than God, that despite God's wrath having already come, the beast possesses even greater power since it not only is it able to make with with the saints, it is also able to overcome them, and all of this while 1) and 2) above are already supposed to be true since 1-4 is meaning mid 70th week, and that Revelation 13, the 42 month reign of the beast, is meaning the remainder of the 70th week?

Clearly, the 42 month reign of the beast is meaning the remainder of the 70th week, so at least that part is correct. What is not correct is that the 7th trumpet is meaning mid 70th week. It's meaning at the end of/after the 70th week. That way we don't encounter all of these contradictions I brought up above.

But maybe some people simply don't care to try and logically reason through things first, before making a final determination as to how something should be understood and interpreted?

Yes, clearly the 42 month reign of the Beast is the remainder of the 70th week. On this we agree.

What is not correct is that the 7th trumpet is meaning mid 70th week. It's meaning at the end of/after the 70th week. That way we don't encounter all of these contradictions I brought up above.
WRONG! They are only human reasoning contradictions, not real. The 7th trumpet does mark the midpoint. You can take that to the bank - so to speak.

Did Jesus tell those in Judea to flee the moment they see the abomination? Certainly He did. Did Daniel tell us the week would be divided by the event that would stop the daily sacrifices? He did. Putting these two thoughts together, we see that the fleeing (because they just saw the abomination event that would divide the week) is in 12:6. Therefore that verse is only seconds after the abomination event that will divide the week. If we back up looking for a timeline event, we find the 7th trumpet..

Next, all 5 events that start at the midpoint and countdown to the end are found in chapters 11, 12, and 13, proving these are midpoint chapters.

how is that Revelation 13:7 is able to be fulfilled, especially the part about---and to overcome them?
What you missed: Parenthesis: when we consider the 1260 days of testifying, and the 42 months of authority; once John introduces these two countdowns, he then gives more information in a parenthesis. In other words, the image is NOT created in the timeframe of chapter 13 (very near the midpoint) nor will be mark be created then either: these things happen LATER in the second half of the week. (but not much later.) Once God introduced John to the Beast, He then took John on a "side journey" outside of chronology down the last half of the week with the two beasts only - showing John what they would be doing during the last half of the week.

Therefore, everything you read in chapter 13 does not happen at the midpoint. It is the same with chapter 11: after verse 3, when God introduces John to the two witnesses, He then took John on a SIDE JOURNEY (outside of His chronology) to show John what would happen to them near the end of the week.) It is done via a parenthesis.

For chronology:
The man of sin arrives in Jerusalem just days before the midpoint. (42 mon)
The Two Witnesses show up (3 1/2 days before the midpoint) (1260 days)
The man of sin abominates (7th trumpet marks that time) week divided
Those in Judea begin to flee (12:6)
Michael goes to war with Satan (chapter 12)
John sees the Beast arise.

All these events take place within a few days of each other right at the midpoint of the week.

Why would something silly like that be being asked if His wrath has already come before this is even asked? What God has caused to be written is certainly not silly. Don't even think such a thing. The wrath of God will begin when the DAY of His wrath begins - and that is at the 6th seal before any part of the 70th week will begin (at the 7th seal).

Is it possible God sees into the future and caused John to write "who is able to make war" with the Beast before the Beast has proven himself in war? Or, perhaps he already took out three kings, but at the time, they did not know this great military leader would end up being the Beast of Rev. 13? Daniel tells us He will take out three kings. But WHEN? My guess is, VERY SOON after he is seen rising as the Beast. It is only a guess.

especially the part about---and to overcome them? Wouldn't that make the beast far more powerful than God, that despite God's wrath having already come, the beast possesses even greater power since it not only is it able to make with with the saints, it is also able to overcome them, and all of this while 1) and 2) above are already supposed to be true since 1-4 is meaning mid 70th week, and that Revelation 13, the 42 month reign of the beast, is meaning the remainder of the 70th week?

I am beginning to get a picture here: You don't believe Revelation as written! You question the very word of God. These events have NOTHING to do with the power of God. The world has wanted a world WITHOUT GOD for some time now - so God is going to give them exactly what they want: a world without God - for 3 1/2 years. It is written in two different verses: the Beast will be given power over the saints. We may not understand it or why it will be so, but we must believe it. It is going to happen. It SEEMS to say, all saints, or the vast majority of them. That is why I won't even entertain a posttrib rapture theory.

The ONLY WAY the Beast will be able to overcome the saints is that GOD WILL ALLOW it. It is written in His word. Who is this "remnant" of believers that will be overcome? It is simple: a subset of those left behind at the rapture. WHY were they left behind? Again it is obvious: they were not "in Christ." They COULD have been, but were not. God had been standing -as it were - with outstretched arms saying COME. He is not willing that ANY should perish. But He will not force people to come to Him.

There are MILLIONS of people who call themselves "Christian" that have never been taught that they must be "born again." They are going to be left behind. They will be forced to choose between staying alive by taking the mark, or losing their head and making heaven their home. This may offend some people. That is between them and God. He is the one who has declared that the saints will be overcome.

Note: human reasoning will not alter what is written.

 

[iamlamad]

The promised Messiah is Hebrew for anointed. Christos is Greek for anointed.

As pointed out, a Greek would not proclaim himself a christos. Unless he could convince the Hebrews his Davidic heritage. He would have to be a prophet first.

But no OT scripture is going to have antichrist. Now the dead Sea Scrolls might. They were today's modern dispensationalist warning about false Messiahs. If they wrote in Greek, it may translate to antichrist.

God did not confuse His people about false christ warnings before He Himself had come. The prophesies about Christ himself were front and center.

It should be that way today as well. We are not looking for any antichrist. We are only supposed to be looking and prepared for Christ, the Lamb of God. God will take care of the rest and other stuff.

You have hit the nail squarely on the head, so to speak. I often ask posttribbers a question: if Jesus should happen to come tonight, would you be EXPECTING Him? I think it is a legitimate question, considering Heb. 9:28.
How many times is it written that we should be WATCHING? (For HIM!)

 

[iamlamad]

The nations will be left after the harvest. It will be a new map after the 6th seal. I doubt current nations will apply at all.

Please explain.

 

[iamlamad]

I don't think I came across.

Was David the king over all nations or was he king of one nation - Israel ? David was the King of Israel.

Jesus - son of David.

The only time the person is the Antichrist is while he is King of Israel (but not approved by God). Which he will be the King of Israel for most of the first half of the 7 years.

What if you started thinking of the little horn as the King of the Roman Empire for that time, times, half time - instead of thinking of him as the Antichrist?

And what if you started thinking of the beast in Revelation 13 as the King of the Roman Empire for that 42 months - instead of thinking of him as the Antichrist?


in the first half of the seven years
1260 days Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6 (most of which as the Antichrist King of Israel)

in the second half of the seven years
3 1/2 days Revelation 11:11
42 months, Revelation 13:5, Revelation 11:2 (as the King of the Roman Empire)
time, times, half time, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, Revelation 12:14 (as the King of the Roman Empire)

Just so the readers will know, I disagree with Douggg here: BOTH 1260 day periods, 11:3 and 12:6 are for the last half of the 70th week. In fact, God has given us 5 (five) mentions of a 3 1/2 year period of time, two given in days, two given in months and one given in "times" and ALL FIVE are for the last half of the week. And Daniel gave us two more.

The Beast's 42 months: last half of the week.

While the beast is beasting for his 42 months, the woman is being fed and protected for her time, times and half of time; and the woman is still fleeing as in away from her home in Judea (for 1260 days); and at the same time, the two witnesses will be testifying for their 1260 days , and the city will be being trampled for 42 months: all happening concurrently or simultaneously.

 

[iamlamad]

The 7th Trumpet is to last 8 days. Sunday to Sunday. It is the Second Coming week.

Wednesday is when the celebration gets cut in half. If the week remained whole, there would not be Satan's 3.5 years. There would be no 7 vials. Chapter 14 would be the end. On Sunday the 2 sickles would end the harvest. The 1000 year reign would start. That would be a perfect week of celebration.

However too many missed being added to the church. Satan gets to torment those would be saints. They get their heads chopped off. Now because of Satan's time, we get the 7 vials and the battle of Armageddon. The Great Tribulation.

The falling away has caused all to think half the book of Revelation already happened. It has caused the thought, the rapture is not until after Satan cuts all the heads off. It is a rescue instead of the glorious appearing of a groom and 10 wise virgins. The post trib rapture is a rescue of 10 foolish virgins. Satan got his heyday.

It is all there if we would rightly divide Revelation, instead of add this verse here, add this verse there, move everything out of order. Change meanings to get this new and deceiving interpretation to fit human desire.

All warnings about a thief in the night are to be heeded, not inserted as an event. There is no rapture event mentioned in all of Revelation, not even the warnings. Revelation is about God's wrath and judgment and harvest of all souls. Chapter 7 tells us of the last mention of the church, until the Second Coming. The Second Coming is the wedding feast. Why would the rapture happen after everything is over?

The last half of Revelation, the church today, wants us to go through. NO!!!!

It is what the 10 wise virgins are supposed to AVOID!!! Christ is coming people. Not Satan!

Yet all prefer to embrace Satan and patiently wait till he gets done having all his fun.

The 7th Trumpet is to last 8 days. Sunday to Sunday. It is the Second Coming week.
Please tell us HOW you come to such a conclusion.

Not even an angel has that much air in his or hers lungs! A trumpet blast here is only a marker to start some event or events.

For the 7th trumpet, it marks the midpoint of the week, marks the time the "closing" happens in the throne room of heaven: authority and dominion over the world is taken from Satan and given to Jesus Christ; and finally marks the moment the war will begin in the heavens: Satan to be cast down.

It is the Second Coming week. What do you mean here?

If the week remained whole, there would not be Satan's 3.5 years. There would be no 7 vials. Chapter 14 would be the end. Sorry, but the week (of years) WILL remain whole: 1260 days in the first half, 1260 days in the second half. This is written in stone, so to speak, and will most certainly come to pass. (the second half in Revelation goes from the 7th trumpet to the 7th vial.)

The Second Coming is the wedding feast. Not really. His "second" coming or next coming will be only to the air FOR His bride - before the 70th week. His final coming (3rd coming) will be just AFTER the wedding feast and AFTER the 70th week.

 

[Douggg]

Just so the readers will know, I disagree with Douggg here: BOTH 1260 day periods, 11:3 and 12:6 are for the last half of the 70th week. In fact, God has given us 5 (five) mentions of a 3 1/2 year period of time, two given in days, two given in months and one given in "times" and ALL FIVE are for the last half of the week. And Daniel gave us two more.

Which in your scenario has the world making merry and exchanging presents over the death of the two witnesses a few days before Jesus descends from heaven to take revenge on behalf of the great tribulation martyrs.

And you having party time exchanging presents with each other, when the grim reaper

is riding the pale horse, followed by hell, people dying with sword, hunger, death, beasts of earth.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

 

[iamlamad]

I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, e were killed just as they had been.

Wrath will come after God gathers all his children to him, whether that be through death, or taken to Jesus when he returns.

Good point: the 5th seal is the martyrs of the church age: they were told that judgment must wait for the very last church age martyr. HINT: the rapture of the church will cause the final church age martyr to have come in: the very next martyr will be a Day of the Lord martyr or a 70th week martyr.

 

[iamlamad]

Which in your scenario has the world making merry and exchanging presents over the death of the two witnesses a few days before Jesus descends from heaven to take revenge on behalf of the great tribulation martyrs.

And you having party time exchanging presents with each other, when the grim reaper View attachment 280162 is riding the pale horse, followed by hell, people dying with sword, hunger, death, beasts of earth.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

No, this is not true. The week ends at the 7th vial. Jesus does not come then. His coming is shown in chapter 19. At the very least, the marriage and supper will take place BETWEEN the end of the week and the time of His coming.

Sorry again, but the "grim reaper" or DEATH is in the "beginning of sorrows" or the church age. His purpose - along with WAR and FAMINE - was to stop the advance of the gospel. Anyway, I think these riders on horses are symbolic.

I would say, you struck out.

 

[iamlamad]

The church age is 3500 years?

How did you come up with that? It will probably be very close to 2000 years.

 

[iamlamad]

That is because everyone calls this false prophet by the name Antichrist.

He will certainly have the same spirit as the "Antichrist," but it is the first beast that will come "in the place of" Christ and pretend he is GOD.

 

[iamlamad]

It is not written any where that 2 men deceive the world. 2 Thessalonians 2 says one man, and that false man is Satan. Only Satan will do what Satan wants. This is his time. You think he is off on vacation watching his handywork do and get all the credit?

Yes, it is written that the whole world wonders and the Beast and worships him. But make no mistake, it is the false prophet performing false miracles that CAUSE the world to believe the great lie: that the first beast really IS God.

Did you ever notice that the False Prophet can only perform his false miracles IN THE SIGHT of the first Beast? Did you ever wonder WHY?

 

[iamlamad]

I thought you claim no false prophet? Are you saying no Antichrist from Daniel either? Is this land prophet just made up to fill in an empty spot?

I only pointed out that it was the first Beast - whom many call the Antichrist and whom I call the Antichrist Beast - is the beast who came from the water. It was the second beast - the False Prophet - who rose up from the earth.

The purpose of the False Prophet is to persuade the world of the great lie: that the first beast really is the God of Israel. I don't think Daniel mentioned him at all. Of course the Little Horn in Daniel 7 (NOT in Daniel 8) is the first Beast of Rev. 13.

 

[iamlamad]

What is your opinion?

(1) Was Jesus a dispensationalist when He NAMED the Jewish
period a "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 22:2]

(2) Was Jesus a dispensationalist when He NAMED the Christian
period a "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 13:24]

(3) Was Jesus a dispensationalish when He NAMED the Great
Tribulation period a "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]

Of course this does not even address the Pre-Flood "Kingdom"

Thanks
.

"likened unto" is not titling or naming. You need to rethink your position.

 

[iamlamad]

In Revelation 13:5-7 it is the ten horned beast that makes war against the saints. The FP is part of this, he just hasn't publicly "risen" yet. Same in Daniel but in reverse. Daniel speaks of the little horn making war against the saints but since he is the ruler of the ten horned beast, that beast is also involved. It's similar to Hitler and the Nazis. If the Nazi's made war against the saints, that involves Hitler even if a text didn't mention him. Also, if Hitler made war against the saints that would also involve the Nazis even if they aren't mentioned.

I don't think we should view 13:7 as happening at the time of that verse. It is to describe his actions through the last half of the week.

You made a good point. The False Prophet will be very much involved in causing the world to worship the Antichrist Beast.

 

[iamlamad]

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

The one meant here has to be the same one meant in the following verse. So who is it that is meant in verse 5 and 6?

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

The same one meant here has to be the same one meant in the following verse, meaning the same one meant in Revelation 13:5-7.


Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

All these verses tell us it is the Antichrist Beast who arose from the waters. Very good points.