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Featured [moved] Where does God's Wrath begin in Revelation?

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by iamlamad, Jun 28, 2020.

  1. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    How could anyone be wrong in every point?
    There is no scripture anywhere that ties Antiochus Epiphanes in Daniel 8 and 11 with the False Prophet of Rev. 13. That theory is imagination.

    Revelation 12 is about Satan sitting as a power in Rome during the church age. No, not right: it is about what Satan the Dragon will be doing during the last half of the 70th week. Chapter 12 is a midpoint chapter. The fleeing in 12:6 is only seconds after the abomination that will divide the week.

    This false prophet can only be the only human, because it was the only beast that came out of The Sea, known as humanity. Sorry, but the first beast came out of the sea, the False Prophet beast (the second beast) came up from land.
     
  2. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    It is only Satan who can deceive people. Sorry, but BOTH beasts of chapter 13 are flesh and blood men. Of course Satan will be behind them, but they are men. It is written that these two men deceive the ENTIRE WORLD. How? with Satan's power in false miracles.
     
  3. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    5thkingdom makes a good point: "False Prophet" is written in Revelation, not in Daniel. I don't think Daniel has anything to say about Revelation's "false prophet."
     
  4. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    they shall prophesy
    a thousand two hundred and threescore days, [representing the church age]


    When you write something like this, we all know that you THINK you know, when in truth, you do not.


    Here is the answer for you.
    Read it carefully and LEARN something:


    There are 5 (five) mentions of a 3 1/2 year period of time given in Revelation. Each one is for an event that will begin at or near the midpoint of the future 70th Week of Daniel and countdown to the end of the week. Here they are in order:
    1. 42 months of Trampling: the man of sin will move to jerusalem with Gentile armies
    2. 1260 days of testifying: the two witnesses: TWO MEN
    3. 1260 days of fleeing: that subset of the woman who live in Judea
    4. Time, times and half of time: protection for the woman above
    5. 42 months of Authority.

    The 70th week is marked by 7's:
    7th seal: officially opens the 70th week.
    7th Trumpet: marks the exact midpoint
    7th vial: ends the week.

    You will note that all five of these countdowns are in chapters 11 through 13, making these chapters as midpoint chapters.
     
  5. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
    16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
    17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
    18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
    19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


    Some significant things to note once the 7th trumpet has sounded.

    1) The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

    2) And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come

    3) the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great

    4) there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

    But if the great tribulation follows, AKA the 42 month reign of the beast, how can 1) above already be true before the beast reigns, and that when the beast reigns, the kingdoms of this world have not already become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ, if the kingdoms of this world are aligned with the beast at the time instead?

    If 2) is already true, followed by the 42 month reign of the beast, then where does Revelation 13 depict the nations are angry at the time because His wrath has come?

    If 4) is already true, followed by the 42 month reign of the beast, then where does Revelation 13 ever depict lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail, at the beginning of it, or even during it?

    If 2) is already true, thy wrath has come, followed by the 42 month reign of the beast, why is Revelation 13:4 asking the questions---Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? Why would something silly like that be being asked if His wrath has already come before this is even asked?


    If 2) is already true, thy wrath has come, followed by the 42 month reign of the beast, how is that Revelation 13:7 is able to be fulfilled, especially the part about---and to overcome them? Wouldn't that make the beast far more powerful than God, that despite God's wrath having already come, the beast possesses even greater power since it not only is it able to make with with the saints, it is also able to overcome them, and all of this while 1) and 2) above are already supposed to be true since 1-4 is meaning mid 70th week, and that Revelation 13, the 42 month reign of the beast, is meaning the remainder of the 70th week?

    Clearly, the 42 month reign of the beast is meaning the remainder of the 70th week, so at least that part is correct. What is not correct is that the 7th trumpet is meaning mid 70th week. It's meaning at the end of/after the 70th week. That way we don't encounter all of these contradictions I brought up above.

    But maybe some people simply don't care to try and logically reason through things first, before making a final determination as to how something should be understood and interpreted?
     
  6. ewq1938

    ewq1938 A forest to be reckoned with Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    "Antichrist" doesn't appear in Revelation but most people believe he is in that book by another name.

    Here is why some believe the false prophet is the little horn mentioned by Daniel:

    Daniel - ten horned beast arises, little horn comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast. Little horn is the antichrist.
    Revelation - ten horned beast arises, false prophet comes next and is the person of authority and power over the ten horned beast. False prophet is the antichrist.


    Same ten horned beast in both books and it is always a large Empire composed of Kings and kingdoms with 1 singular person ruling over it all and that person is the same person in both books called the little horn and false prophet.


    Daniel - ten horned beast arises, little horn
    Revelation - ten horned beast arises, false prophet

    Same person, two names/titles.

    Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

    These horns are little horns of a young lamb which is a direct reference to the little horn Daniel wrote of who is also the one we know as the Antichrist.

    G721
    ????´??
    arnion
    ar-nee'-on
    Diminutive from G704; a lambkin: - lamb.
    Total KJV occurrences: 30

    The little horn of Daniel is commonly believed to be the AC John wrote about and in Revelation there is a person with two little horns who appears after the ten horned beast just as the little horn in Daniel appears after the ten horned beast. Clearly the same person is in mind here.
     
  7. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
    6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

    The one meant here has to be the same one meant in the following verse. So who is it that is meant in verse 5 and 6?

    Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

    The same one meant here has to be the same one meant in the following verse, meaning the same one meant in Revelation 13:5-7.


    Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
     
  8. ewq1938

    ewq1938 A forest to be reckoned with Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    In Revelation 13:5-7 it is the ten horned beast that makes war against the saints. The FP is part of this, he just hasn't publicly "risen" yet. Same in Daniel but in reverse. Daniel speaks of the little horn making war against the saints but since he is the ruler of the ten horned beast, that beast is also involved. It's similar to Hitler and the Nazis. If the Nazi's made war against the saints, that involves Hitler even if a text didn't mention him. Also, if Hitler made war against the saints that would also involve the Nazis even if they aren't mentioned.
     
  9. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    What is your opinion?

    (1) Was Jesus a dispensationalist when He NAMED the Jewish
    period a "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 22:2]

    (2) Was Jesus a dispensationalist when He NAMED the Christian
    period a "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 13:24]

    (3) Was Jesus a dispensationalish when He NAMED the Great
    Tribulation period a "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]

    Of course this does not even address the Pre-Flood "Kingdom"

    Thanks
    .
     
  10. Timtofly

    Timtofly Active Member

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    I thought you claim no false prophet? Are you saying no Antichrist from Daniel either? Is this land prophet just made up to fill in an empty spot?
     
  11. Timtofly

    Timtofly Active Member

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    It is not written any where that 2 men deceive the world. 2 Thessalonians 2 says one man, and that false man is Satan. Only Satan will do what Satan wants. This is his time. You think he is off on vacation watching his handywork do and get all the credit?
     
  12. Timtofly

    Timtofly Active Member

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    That is because everyone calls this false prophet by the name Antichrist.
     
  13. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    If people would not be referring to the person as the Antichrist in the universal sense, most of the confusion would not be occurring.

    little horn in Daniel 7, first beast in Revelation 13 - the King of the Roman Empire.
    Antichrist - the King of Israel.

    None of you have spoken of the Antichrist as being the King of Israel. That is the only time the person is the Antichrist.

    ....... "Christ the King of Israel" Mark 15:32. Anti-Christ someone else King of Israel instead of Jesus.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2020
  14. Timtofly

    Timtofly Active Member

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    The church age is 3500 years?
     
  15. Chris35

    Chris35 Member

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    I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, e were killed just as they had been.

    Wrath will come after God gathers all his children to him, weither that be through death, or taken to Jesus when he returns.
     
  16. ewq1938

    ewq1938 A forest to be reckoned with Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    He will be king over all nations so not important to speak about him as king over one nation out of all of them.
     
  17. Timtofly

    Timtofly Active Member

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    The 7th Trumpet is to last 8 days. Sunday to Sunday. It is the Second Coming week.

    Wednesday is when the celebration gets cut in half. If the week remained whole, there would not be Satan's 3.5 years. There would be no 7 vials. Chapter 14 would be the end. On Sunday the 2 sickles would end the harvest. The 1000 year reign would start. That would be a perfect week of celebration.

    However too many missed being added to the church. Satan gets to torment those would be saints. They get their heads chopped off. Now because of Satan's time, we get the 7 vials and the battle of Armageddon. The Great Tribulation.

    The falling away has caused all to think half the book of Revelation already happened. It has caused the thought, the rapture is not until after Satan cuts all the heads off. It is a rescue instead of the glorious appearing of a groom and 10 wise virgins. The post trib rapture is a rescue of 10 foolish virgins. Satan got his heyday.

    It is all there if we would rightly divide Revelation, instead of add this verse here, add this verse there, move everything out of order. Change meanings to get this new and deceiving interpretation to fit human desire.

    All warnings about a thief in the night are to be heeded, not inserted as an event. There is no rapture event mentioned in all of Revelation, not even the warnings. Revelation is about God's wrath and judgment and harvest of all souls. Chapter 7 tells us of the last mention of the church, until the Second Coming. The Second Coming is the wedding feast. Why would the rapture happen after everything is over?

    The last half of Revelation, the church today, wants us to go through. NO!!!!

    It is what the 10 wise virgins are supposed to AVOID!!! Christ is coming people. Not Satan!

    Yet all prefer to embrace Satan and patiently wait till he gets done having all his fun.
     
  18. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I don't think I came across.

    Was David the king over all nations or was he king of one nation - Israel ? David was the King of Israel.

    Jesus - son of David.

    The only time the person is the Antichrist is while he is King of Israel (but not approved by God). Which he will be the King of Israel for most of the first half of the 7 years.

    What if you started thinking of the little horn as the King of the Roman Empire for that time, times, half time - instead of thinking of him as the Antichrist?

    And what if you started thinking of the beast in Revelation 13 as the King of the Roman Empire for that 42 months - instead of thinking of him as the Antichrist?


    in the first half of the seven years
    1260 days Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6 (most of which as the Antichrist King of Israel)

    in the second half of the seven years
    3 1/2 days Revelation 11:11
    42 months, Revelation 13:5, Revelation 11:2 (as the King of the Roman Empire)
    time, times, half time, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, Revelation 12:14 (as the King of the Roman Empire)
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2020
  19. Timtofly

    Timtofly Active Member

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    Daniel cannot address an antichrist, because the world had to wait for the first Christ. Not even Christ offered sacrifices in the temple, that would be the work of a priest. Pagan nations would offer false prophet instead. A priest from another nation would be rejected. But a man who could prophecy, and show proof, would be received. A false Messiah in the guise of a prophet. "All we like sheep, have gone astray." But no Christ and no Antichrist, until a true Christ. Is the antichrist overkill because of the lead up to the Reformation? Or the dispensational aftermath?
     
  20. Timtofly

    Timtofly Active Member

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    The nations will be left after the harvest. It will be a new map after the 6th seal. I doubt current nations will apply at all.
     
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