[moved] Where does God's Wrath begin in Revelation?

BABerean2

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Are you on-board with the anytime rapture view yet?

I am not on-board with the version on your chart.

The gathering of the Church could not have occurred before 70 AD, because of the prophecies about the temple being destroyed in the Olivet Discourse.

Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, your future 70th week of Daniel cannot be correct.

Based on Matthew 26:28, and Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, the covenant with the many in Daniel 9:27 is the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34.
Are we supposed to believe the angel Gabriel appeared to Daniel to reveal the timeline of the Messiah who would fulfill the New Covenant, and then the angel failed to even mention the New Covenant?

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Dave L

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Some people believe it will begin with the Day of His wrath at the 6th seal.
Others say that is just the announcement: Wrath will begin at the 7th seal.
(I need input!)
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life: but the wrath of God abideth on him.’” John 3:36 (NCPB)
All of the seals contain God's wrath from the time of Christ onward.
 
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JacksBratt

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Some people believe it will begin with the Day of His wrath at the 6th seal.
Others say that is just the announcement: Wrath will begin at the 7th seal.
(I need input!)
I always believed that the entire tribulation is the judgement of God on the earth.
 
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BABerean2

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I always believed that the entire tribulation is the judgement of God on the earth.

In the passage below we find those under the blood of the Lamb.

We also find the wrath of Satan upon the people of God.

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Why would you think those in verse 11 are being punished by God, since they are under the blood of the Lamb?

The Capital "C" Church, as we use the word today, is not found in the entire Book of Revelation. Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.

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JacksBratt

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In the passage below we find those under the blood of the Lamb.

We also find the wrath of Satan upon the people of God.

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Why would you think those in verse 11 are being punished by God, since they are under the blood of the Lamb?

The Capital "C" Church, as we use the word today, is not found in the entire Book of Revelation. Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.

.

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It seems to me like there are two things happening here.

1/ The wrath of God is poured out on the earth in the Tribulation.
2/ Satan hates those that still love God and have been sealed with God's seal. These people "loved not their lives, until death" meaning that they died for their faith in Christ and the belief in the true God.
 
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5thKingdom

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I always believed that the entire tribulation is the judgement of God on the earth.


Rev 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!


Rev 9:1-2
And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.


Clearly the Judgment of God begins at the 1st Woe/5th Trumpet.
During the Great Tribulation or Revelation Beasts God Judges the
last "wheat" during the First Woe or 5th Trumpet. Then God
Judges the last "tares" during the Second Woe or Sixth Trumpet.
Then God Judges those OUTSIDE the church (the world) during
the Third Woe or Seventh Trumpet.

This is why there is a time between the end of the Second Woe
and the beginning of the Third Woe [Rev 11:14]


First God judges Satan's spiritual Kingdom of Babylon, which
includes the "wheat and tares" in the church. And then God
Judges Satan's physical/political Kingdoms (world governments)
at the Seventh Trumpet.

The Final Harvest of the Last Saints occurs BEFORE the end
of the Second Woe (when the Revelation Beast is destroyed)
But Satan's "Kingdoms of Man" continue on for a brief
"Season and Time" after the Fourth Beast is destroyed
[Dan 7:11-12] and that is why we see a time difference
between the Revelation Beast being cast into the Lake
[Rev 19:20] and the Kingdoms of Man JOINING THE BEAST
n the Lake of Fire [Rev 20:10]

.
 
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BABerean2

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1/ The wrath of God is poured out on the earth in the Tribulation.

What does the text below say?

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Who is the source of wrath in this verse?

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eleos1954

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Some people believe it will begin with the Day of His wrath at the 6th seal.
Others say that is just the announcement: Wrath will begin at the 7th seal.
(I need input!)

The only time God's wrath is given in full strength is at the end of the world.
 
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Ronit

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Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Revelation 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


These appear to be all the passages in Revelation that specifically mention wrath. None of these passages appear to be meaning a time as early as the first trumpet though, therefore indicating God's wrath doesn't begin that early on.

If we use the seals as an outline of events where those events are in chronological order, then compare the following 2 seals, this too tends to prove that God's wrath doesn't begin as early as the first trumpet.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

A couple of things to note here. These martyrs are told to rest yet a little season, because it is not time for them to be avenged until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. As to their fellowservants also and their brethren, this is obviously meaning during the great tribulation, IOW, during the 42 month reign of the beast. And when we get to the 6th seal, it appears it is then time to avenge all of them, including the ones killed during the 42 month reign of the beast, the fact the 6th seal ends by declaring that the wrath of the Lamb has come.
But what do you think the Mark Of the Beast is?
Is it a Vaccine, a Computer chip, a tattoo?
Thanks
Ronit
 
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Ronit

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I would say when the second seal events begin with the rider on the red horse which takes peace from the earth. In 1Thessalonians5, when they say "peace and safety" sudden destruction comes in the way of the Day of the Lord beginning.

And to escape that wrath....

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

I have the rider of the red horse on my chart...


View attachment 279883
This is great but is it leaning towards dispensationalism?
I'm not a dispensationalist
Thanks
Ronit
 
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Douggg

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This is great but is it leaning towards dispensationalism?
I'm not a dispensationalist
Thanks
Ronit
me either. Dispensationalism divides history up into blocks called dispensations claiming different ways of how God has dwelt with man. I don't subscribe to that theory.

I am a futurist, in that I believe the end times prophecies for the most part are still ahead of us.

The seal events in Revelation 6, I take to be from the start of the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9 - to the end of it at Jesus's return.

I don't spread any of the seals across history. But contend they apply to the 7 years.

Here is my timeline chart of events of the 7 year 70th week. So you can know what my position is. The person will be perceived by Israel to be the messiah only for a short while, before they reject him from continuing as their King of Israel.


upload_2020-6-29_16-11-42.jpeg
 
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Ronit

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The gathering of the church is described in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4.
The timing of that event is found in chapter 5.
The words "we" and "sleep" in the verse below prove the chapters are connected.


1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.


Former Pretrib believer Steven Straub shows the truth in the passage below.

.
Thank You for this :)
Ronit
 
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Ronit

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me either. Dispensationalism divides history up into blocks called dispensations claiming different ways of how God has dwelt with man. I don't subscribe to that theory.

I am a futurist, in that I believe the end times prophecies for the most part are still ahead of us.

The seal events in Revelation 6, I take to be from the start of the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9 - to the end of it at Jesus's return.

I don't spread any of the seals across history. But contend they apply to the 7 years.

Here is my timeline chart of events of the 7 year 70th week. So you can know what my position is. The person will be perceived by Israel to be the messiah only for a short while, before they reject him from continuing as their King of Israel.


View attachment 279938
Thank you I appreciate it :)
Ronit
 
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Ronit

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me either. Dispensationalism divides history up into blocks called dispensations claiming different ways of how God has dwelt with man. I don't subscribe to that theory.

I am a futurist, in that I believe the end times prophecies for the most part are still ahead of us.

The seal events in Revelation 6, I take to be from the start of the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9 - to the end of it at Jesus's return.

I don't spread any of the seals across history. But contend they apply to the 7 years.

Here is my timeline chart of events of the 7 year 70th week. So you can know what my position is. The person will be perceived by Israel to be the messiah only for a short while, before they reject him from continuing as their King of Israel.


View attachment 279938
But how do you know the little horn is the leader of the EU.
I'm not arguing. I need help. I really have no clue about the book of Revelation.
I read it, but I don't understand it much.
Thanks
Ronit
 
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DavidPT

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But what do you think the Mark Of the Beast is?
Is it a Vaccine, a Computer chip, a tattoo?
Thanks
Ronit


I have no idea what it actually is. All I know is, until a beast first rises out of the sea, another out of the earth, where the latter is then saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live---there cannot be a mark of the beast before then. The mark of the beast is clearly connected to the image of the beast they make. Until they do that first, whatever it means to do that, whether in the literal sense or some other sense, there can be no mark before they do that, to refuse or not refuse, there can be no image before they do that, to refuse to worship or not refuse to worship.
 
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Ronit

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I have no idea what it actually is. All I know is, until a beast first rises out of the sea, another out of the earth, where the latter is then saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live---there cannot be a mark of the beast before then. The mark of the beast is clearly connected to the image of the beast they make. Until they do that first, whatever it means to do that, whether in the literal sense or some other sense, there can be no mark before they do that, to refuse or not refuse, there can be no image before they do that, to refuse or not refuse.
Thank you
 
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Douggg

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But how do you know the little horn is the leader of the EU.
I'm not arguing. I need help. I really have no clue about the book of Revelation.
I read it, but I don't understand it much.
Thanks
Ronit
It is very important to grasp that the person we all talk about is the Antichrist only for the brief period he is the King of Israel.

The other times, he is the King of the Roman Empire (equilvalent in the end times as the EU, formed by the treaties of Rome, originally as the common market).

How can we know, it means the leader of the EU? Because in Daniel, 7 there were four beasts that Daniel saw in a vision come out of the sea. These are almost universally understood to be the babylon empire, the medes/persians, the greek empire, the Roman Empire as the fourth of those kingdoms.

In the end times, when the kingdom of God is brought here to earth to be given to the saints of God, which will include Israel, the Jewish people, at that time, there are ten kings that will rise out of that fourth kingdom.


23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. [the second half of the 7 years, essentially]

The another (in red) we can know from earlier verses in Daniel 7, that is the little horn person.


19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Going still futher back in Daniel 7,

7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

________________________________________________________________________

So we can know that the little horn comes out of the fourth kingdom. And all we have to is figure out what that kingdom would look like today. Which is the EU. Which also contains Rome.

Ronit, it took me almost 50 years, I am 71, double your age, to get to my present place of understanding of the end time prophecies. You don't have to learn it in a single day. But you have an opportunity, to learn it all much much faster than I did. In a very short time.

What will help you if you study that chart I made, and follow the red line down through it and read each of the scripture passages I annotated.



 
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Ronit

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It is very important to grasp that the person we all talk about is the Antichrist only for the brief period he is the King of Israel.

The other times, he is the King of the Roman Empire (equilvalent in the end times as the EU, formed by the treaties of Rome, originally as the common market).

How can we know, it means the leader of the EU? Because in Daniel, 7 there were four beasts that Daniel saw in a vision come out of the sea. These are almost universally understood to be the babylon empire, the medes/persians, the greek empire, the Roman Empire as the fourth of those kingdoms.

In the end times, when the kingdom of God is brought here to earth to be given to the saints of God, which will include Israel, the Jewish people, at that time, there are ten kings that will rise out of that fourth kingdom.


23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. [the second half of the 7 years, essentially]

The another (in red) we can know from earlier verses in Daniel 7, that is the little horn person.


19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Going still futher back in Daniel 7,

7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

________________________________________________________________________

So we can know that the little horn comes out of the fourth kingdom. And all we have to is figure out what that kingdom would look like today. Which is the EU. Which also contains Rome.

Ronit, it took me almost 50 years, I am 71, double your age, to get to my present place of understanding of the end time prophecies. You don't have to learn it in a single day. But you have an opportunity, to learn it all much much faster than I did. In a very short time.


Thank you. But all these different opinions confuse me. I wish Revelation were clear. The symbolism is confusing for me. Why don't they say words like bad gov't, communism, raging military armies. Why all the animal symbology. I get discouraged and I don't want to bother with it cuz I don't understand.
Thank you
Ronit
 
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5thKingdom

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Who is the source of wrath in this verse?.

Rev 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The end of the world is shown as three (3) woes.

(1) During the First Woe (Fifth Trumpet) God judges the
last "wheat" in the church... those taken into the Great Tribulation
"Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1] They are the "wise virgins"

(2) During the Second Woe (Sixth Trumpet) God judges the
last "tares" in the church... those taken into the Great Tribulation
"Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1] They are the "foolish virgins"

This completes God's Judgment on Satan's spiritual Kingdom
known as "Babylon the Great"


(3) During the Third Woe (Seventh Trumpet) God judges all
those in Satan's physical/political "Kingdoms of Man"

That is why there is a time difference between the END
of Satan's spiritual Kingdom [Rev 19:20] and the time
when Satan and the world JOIN THE BEAST in the Lake
[Rev 20:10]

/
 
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Douggg

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Thank you. But all these different opinions confuse me. I wish Revelation were clear. The symbolism is confusing for me. Why don't they say words like bad gov't, communism, raging military armies. Why all the animal symbology. I get discouraged and I don't want to bother with it cuz I don't understand.
Thank you
Ronit
I understand the issue of so many points of view and opinions. You are just going to have sort them and see which ones or parts make sense to you, and keep refining your own view.

When I was 13, thereabouts, I picked up a bible at home, and wanted to get to the bottom line. So I started reading through Revelation. I was so overwhelmed with it, that I closed the bible and didn't open it up again until ten years later, that God dealt with me, and I believed upon Jesus as His Way, in the most personal I know nothing prayer ever. That's when I started the journey which changed me forever.
 
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