BLM leader denounces icons of "white Jesus"

[Hermit76]

Yes, when they applied controls based on several factors to the data they got got a result that's different from raw statistical data on extreme uses of force (shooting and Tazers). That doesn't make the other data inaccurate.
More importantly, this was in the same paragraph:

"On non-lethal uses of force, there are racial differences – sometimes quite large – in police use of force, even after accounting for a large set of controls designed to account for important contextual and behavioral factors at the time of the police-civilian interaction."

And that's how George Floyd died. He wasn't shot or Tazered. These non-lethal, or not directly lethal, uses of force occur more often with Black suspects, which only increases racial tension when there is a shooting. It causes and extreme outburst of anger that statistical control factors play no part in. The more important take away is that there isn't enough usable data that exists across the nation. As stated, one of the goals of the current movement is to fix that. More transparency will be better for everyone.

And the higher rate of crime in minority neighborhood have no impact on this tendency?

If I walk into a crack house as a cop I'm going to be more alert than if I walk into a shoplifting situation.

If violence is more likely then non lethal treatment will be greater

 

[rusmeister]

SFB, you say you “have no dog in the fight”, and are disinterested, but I’ve been listening to you for a while now, and frankly, I don’t believe you. You are partisan, you are pushing a narrative, you believe that a goal of all of this violence, statue-toppling and the rest is “transparency” - and it may be, for the naive people in the outer circle who are honestly concerned about police abuse and brutality, as I am (and I’d bet three to one I’ve experienced it closer up than you), but the far more overriding goal of overthrowing not only the 2016 election results, but the political system, escapes you. That anarchy leads to tyranny escapes you. That big media, big tech, Hollywood, the ultra-wealthy, and the enemies of the Orthodox Church on the whole, and of Christianity in general support that, escapes you. That there are lies, damned lies, and statistics escapes you. I don’t think you’re completely wrong - I think even those who are wrong are right about some things - but these humungous facts - I’d call them “meta-facts” - override the basic thrust of your narrative. Your modest claims at impartiality are generally belied by the decisive partiality of the side you have effectively taken. I assume you are American, like me, living abroad, like me. I’d be more interested in your personal story. It might even help in some common understanding. But as it stands now, what I see is you missing the forest for the trees.

 

[walking.away.123]

Edited for pride.

 

[Hermit76]

That's kind of the problem, the assumption Blacks are violent.

They commit violent crimes at a greater rate than any other race. That stat has already been provided

 

[walking.away.123]

No, violence is just violence. These movements are complex and have many factors going.
I shouldn't be arguing, and that's mostly what I've done. It's my struggle with passion, I can't help thinking my opinion is needed.
Thanks rusmeister, for your comments.
Edited for pride.

 

[rusmeister]

No, violence is just violence. These movements are complex and have many factors going it. It happens here too. There will be a peaceful protest and then anarchist or Communist get involved late in the day. The black block groups are no ones friends.


I grew up a Republican and thought no other way was right. I worked for my local party, too. Now I think every part of the political spectrum is wrong. I won't vote. As I said somewhere else, if this was a different situation I'd totally be on the other side. If someone was posting the Christian virtues of looting and breaking down racist statues, I'd be writing against that.
Admittedly, I probably did become more sympathetic to things people call liberal when I became Orthodox, though for many things I changed my ideas toward what people call conservative, and I also became more serious about seeing truth.

To be honest I shouldn't be here now. I remember TAW was a nice place where people mostly talked about Orthodox and things happening in the world was only a small part of that. There were more people, so there was a diversity of voices, and we had our own mods then who kept things under control. I came here for one purpose, and it wasn't to argue, and that's mostly what I've done. It's my struggle with passion, I can't help thinking my opinion is needed. I don't do that at church, but people speak more politely than people online. These are not good days to be online, and I should let Americans solve their own problems.
Thanks rusmeister, you've been great to talk to. I thought you were a nut at first, but you really do speak like a human online when spoken to in the same way. I don't share your opinions, but I can respect them.

FWIW, I agree on political parties.The only way in which I am remotely close to the Republican Party is in the sense that the Republicans can destroy the nation in fifty years, while the Democrats can do it in ten. Libertarian is bad, too - they imagine that what we do does not affect others. I’m much more a Chestertonian distributist.

What you’ve been supporting is largely along the same lines taken by the Democratic Party. I see that as more immediately destructive.

 

[buzuxi02]

It's just anti-white sentiment. Christ would look like any Mediterranean but the sentiment is that he is just another "poor brown person".

Many of these protesters are iconoclasts. For example this icon of Virgin Mary and Child was desecrated even though the image portrays them black :

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

Yes, when they applied controls based on several factors to the data they got got a result that's different from raw statistical data on extreme uses of force (shooting and Tazers). The actual percentages are higher without the controls, which is explained in the article.
More importantly, this was in the stated paragraph:

"On non-lethal uses of force, there are racial differences – sometimes quite large – in police use of force, even after accounting for a large set of controls designed to account for important contextual and behavioral factors at the time of the police-civilian interaction."

And that's how George Floyd died. He wasn't shot or Tazered. These non-lethal, or not directly lethal, uses of force occur more often with Black suspects, even with statistical controls, which only increases racial tension when there is a shooting. It causes and extreme outburst of anger that statistical control factors play no part in. The more important take away is that there isn't enough usable data that exists across the nation. The Yale study is based on only a small sample. As stated, one of the goals of the current movement is to fix that. More transparency will be better for everyone. Then cities can work with the police to make policies that are better based on facts and we don't need to wait for protests and make emotional decisions.

Well, hold on there. Now you are just moving the goalposts.

I’ve already shown why you have to control the data. You are gainsaying the statistical significance of the study you cite?

Let’s stop and repeat what we have just established, including from your data: there is no evidence that police in the US are racist against blacks in their use of force.

Yet much of the US media narrative, as well as the narrative from BLM, has been that blacks are being “hunted down” by police, that there is a “holocaust” against blacks, that blacks “aren’t safe to leave their houses”.

We have now established that the facts don't support that narrative. Police are not systematically using more force against blacks. In fact, they are using less force against blacks.

The narrative was a lie.

 

[Aldebaran]

That's kind of the problem, the assumption Blacks are violent.

What do the arrest videos show when they resist arrest? What do the protest videos show as they burn down buildings and hit people in the head with bricks? How about the videos where they attack police officers (and even citizens) and try to wrestle their gun away from them? "No Justice, No peace". What does that tell you?

 

[Lord Give Me A Sign]

What do the arrest videos show when they resist arrest? What do the protest videos show as they burn down buildings and hit people in the head with bricks? How about the videos where they attack police officers (and even citizens) and try to wrestle their gun away from them? "No Justice, No peace". What does that tell you?

What do the arrest video shows when they dont resist arrest? What about the blacks that protest peacefully? What about the blacks who have been murdered for no reason other then the color of their skin?

Theres truth to what both of you are saying. Some cities have neighborhoods that are very tough to police. Cops will show up and theyll get spit on, sworn at, and have a very tough time dealing with people. This stuff happens in not just low income black neighborhoods but low income white neighborhoods as well

Cops may be a little quicker to pull the trigger in some neighborhoods knowing their own life is in danger if they dont

On the other hand many of the situations that have been highlighted by the media didnt show blacks resisting, it showed police brutality.

To conclude, the existence of dangerous violent neighborhoods where cops may need to be more on the aggressive and highly alert side is a reality

But so is racism and police brutality

 

[Dorothea]

They commit violent crimes at a greater rate than any other race. That stat has already been provided

Does anybody ever think or ask why stats show this? Why more black people are violent, according to what you said?

 

[dzheremi]

I've lived in very rough neighborhoods in states with almost no black population (for instance, Albuquerque NM, which has higher than average violent crime and property crime stats, though the city's black population is tiny; there are more Native Americans there than black people), so it seems to me that the common denominator of bad places to live is poverty, not necessarily absent a racial link (I do think racism and poverty are related), but in no way some kind of uniquely black problem.

And that doesn't stop the police from killing peaceful people, as they did years ago when I was living there to a peaceful but mentally ill homeless man named James Boyd who was sleeping at the feet of the Sandia Mountains. This triggered massive protests, before the nationwide rise of the BLM movement (the James Boyd shooting was in 2014).

So even absent that particular movement, people are just sick of police being able to murder people with very little or no repercussions. The trial of the cops who killed Boyd (of whom video exists showing him complying with their orders before being murdered on camera; it's really mentally scarring, but it's also really clear, to the point where the mayor had to backtrack on her original stance that it was justified after she saw the video) ended in a hung jury, so there was never a conviction for murder, and Boyd's family later sued the city of Albuquerque for $5 million. The DOJ released a report after a year of investigating the APD that concluded that their training was insufficient, that officers themselves frequently escalated situations in their interactions with the public that led to a much higher than average number of officer-involved shootings, and that many of those shootings were not found to be justified. Adjusted for population differences (as noted in the video), it concluded that the APD shot people more frequently than the NYPD. Basically the entire APD needed to be torn down and rebuilt. It was really scathing. And that was just one department in a medium-sized city with a black population of under 3%.

When the police are out of control (as they were when I lived there, according to the federal government, not just some idealistic student radicals or whatever), the people have the right to protest having to live in such conditions. Not everyone can just pick up and move to a safer area, again because of poverty. What was George Floyd supposedly doing when the cops came? Trying to spend what may have been a fake $20 bill (probably without knowing that that's what it was). What was Eric Garner doing? Selling loose cigarettes. Does anyone see a problem rooted in economics, or am I completely out to lunch?

 

[Not David]

Does anybody ever think or ask why stats show this? Why more black people are violent, according to what you said?

Maybe genetics?

 

[Hermit76]

Does anybody ever think or ask why stats show this? Why more black people are violent, according to what you said?

Because it doesn't fit the narrative of that side.
It's a very good question. I think the answer is complex.

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

Maybe genetics?

I think this is the only explanation that a priori I would reject.

Europeans had the most violent last 100 years in the history of mankind.

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

Because it doesn't fit the narrative of that side.
It's a very good question. I think the answer is complex.

Yes, I agree.

Could 2/3 of blacks in the US being born out of wedlock have something to do with it?

Fifty years ago it was less than 1/5.

 

[archer75]

Maybe genetics?

Ridiculous notion. Ridiculous.

Poverty rooted in slavery and a century of racist law is one big factor.

 

[dzheremi]

Yes, I agree.

Could 2/3 of blacks in the US being born out of wedlock have something to do with it?

Fifty years ago it was less than 1/5.

I don't think you can destroy the basis of the family and not expect various forms of social neuroses to follow. Similar points could probably be made about the opioid epidemic and how it is tearing apart mostly white families (it sure did that to mine), causing many children to go into foster care and such. I am 'lucky' in the sense that effects of long-term opioid addiction didn't really hit my family in any way I had to immediately deal with until I was an adult, or else I too would probably have ended up in such dire straits as those kids, in a way that is paralleled in a lot of minority communities by the particular social and personal problems that befall them (e.g., alcoholism in Native American communities, to again take it out of the incredibly simplistic black vs. white narrative that is always the analysis in a U.S. context).

 

[ArmyMatt]

Maybe genetics?

I don't think there's any evidence to support this.

 

[buzuxi02]

Police tactics is a separate thing from these leftist groups.
I personally don't see police targeting black people for abuse but other factors can show why there's more police activity in black communities . Just 2 days ago here in Queen's NY a Greek man was killed in his own apartment when cops broke in and tased him twice. The neighbor called police on him for making noise as he was bipolar . Cops arrived and he held a sword and was playing "gladiator" . He was uncooperative so they tased him to subdue him which killed him. I only found out about this from a FB feed of a Greek Australian I know. I had to look it up just in case it was fake news even though living NY, I didn't hear about this.

I had this family that would come to the restaurant. There son was shot to death in the yard of his waterfront home as he tried to get away with a knife in his hand. Cops were asking his parents to talk to their son for breaking into a neighbor's home . Other cops at the scene saw him and one shot him. The cops were exhonerated, but the county settled a wrongful death lawsuit. The kid was shot in the back of the head and the county settled knowing no way to fight it. This was a RICH white kid from Point Lookout NY. It happens. Also when I say the police departments should hire more black officers and even have an all black unit for sensitive areas most think I'm crazy. Notice BLM never demands the hiring of more black officers for black neighborhoods.