Something doesn't feel right about BLM

[whatbogsends]

Systemic racism clearly doesn’t keep Asians from outperforming other demographics. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Perhaps a good work ethic is especially valued in Asian cultures. Is that answer satisfactory to you, or do you want to know why many Asian immigrants bring an outstanding work ethic with them?

No one, and I mean no one is arguing that institutional racism is the only explanation for the statistical differences between different racial demographics. The goal here is to get people to acknowledge that it exists, and that it’s worth fixing.

When people make the argument that expected outcomes should be equal (and they do), they are implicitly saying that racism is the only factor which explains the difference.

Moreover, when other potential factors are discussed, many immediately cry "racism" rather than discussing the other factors. Reducing the discussion to an oversimplification doesn't serve to simplify the discussion, it serves to impede it. Your question which i responded to in my initial post appeared to be one of these oversimplifications:

No there will be a difference when you separate statistics by race. They’ll be different every time. You can’t expect all races to have the exact same numbers across the board. That’s just ridiculous.

Why not? Why would one race’s performance differ significantly on average from any other race? What is it about race that determines so much of someone’s future?

Right there you seem to be saying that expectations from various racial and cultural groups should be essentially the exact same. In that post, you are suggesting that institutional racism is the only cause of the differences in outcomes without actually saying it.

We need to acknowledge the complexity of privilege and the impacts of institutional racism before we can address it. When arguments are made about white privilege, the implicit thrust is that all whites have privilege. While "all whites" may benefit in some way due to institutional racism, the sum of an individuals privilege is not necessarily greater by the simple fact of being white. A poor white from a low economic community is likely less privileged than many people of color from affluent parents/in affluent areas. The lack of articulation of the problem coupled with the rigidness of many of it's adherents stifles conversation and is counterproductive in working toward a solution.

 

[Sparagmos]

sure what I was saying was can a larger number of whites possibly graduate college than Hispanics and blacks if less whites are motivated to do so?I don’t see how that could be possible.

Well I don’t think I made that claim, but yes a more privileged person can be successful despite being less motivated because they have fewer obstacles to overcome. If nothing stands in your way, you don’t need as much motivation.

Now - What is your theory on why fewer blacks graduate college and have considerable less wealth than whites?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Right there you seem to be saying that expectations from various racial and cultural groups should be essentially the exact same. In that post, you are suggesting that institutional racism is the only cause of the differences in outcomes without actually saying it.

No that’s not what my post says. My post is saying the exact opposite. I’m saying you can’t expect any statistics to be equal across the board if they’re separate into racial categories. It would be extremely unlikely for all races to have the same percentage of low household income or colleges graduates, or cat owners or victims of baldness or Toyota drivers, anything you want to create a statistic for the numbers will be different for each race. They’re not going to be the same exact numbers in all race groups.

 

[istodolez]

When people make the argument that expected outcomes should be equal (and they do), they are implicitly saying that racism is the only factor which explains the difference.

Not necessarily. I think it reasonable to say that systemic racism is a dominant factor, but as in all regression analyses you can have "cross terms". Factors that affect some data differently than others.

In the case of systemic racism: we can have systemic racism that hits black people worse than asian people. Perhaps, just as a guess, America's historically long history of treating black people as less than human or groups that must be oppressed. Same thing for Native Americans. We've historically done some of the most horrific things against these populations. Systemic racism may continue that trend.

Asian performance in society is different. It has been bad in the past but that doesn't mean that America's systemic racism affects them in exactly the same way.

Again, in multiple regression analysis this is called a "cross term" or "interaction term".

We need to acknowledge the complexity of privilege and the impacts of institutional racism before we can address it. When arguments are made about white privilege, the implicit thrust is that all whites have privilege. While "all whites" may benefit in some way due to institutional racism, the sum of an individuals privilege is not necessarily greater by the simple fact of being white.

I agree that some researchers like D'Angelo may overplay the universality of white privilege, I honestly don't think it's that far off. On a first-order approximation white privilege is quite real, quite ubiquitous and very much something that we all need to examine in ourselves.

A poor white from a low economic community is likely less privileged than many people of color

Possibly, but, again, after the Civil War, when poor black farmers (newly freed slaves) were starting to find common cause with poor white farmers in the South the powers that be were able to exploit racial divisions quite easily and ensure stratification of privilege maintained. The old saw about being poor but at least not being black comes to mind.

And, again, poor white people will probably still be able to drive through a white neighborhood without being stopped simply because of skin color. There is white privilege. Sure it may vanish when someone gets to finer grained analysis of a job applicant (then you get into education experience etc.) but on first blush (pun intended) white is far more comfortable to white people.

from affluent parents/in affluent areas. The lack of articulation of the problem coupled with the rigidness of many of it's adherents stifles conversation and is counterproductive in working toward a solution.

Agreed, but in the end we are at the stage of addressing the problem that we need to appreciate the first order analysis. The broad swath of the main factors. Yes we need to appreciate interaction terms and second order terms but at this stage we need the straightforward understanding in order to better understand the deeper more complex issues.

 

[istodolez]

It would be extremely unlikely for all races to have the same percentage of low household income or colleges graduates, or cat owners or victims of baldness or Toyota drivers, anything you want

So I have to ask: "why not?" This is the essentially the "null hypothesis" we are testing against.

If you have a population that has sub-populations then it is CRITICAL to understand why they are different. Especially for a wholly synthetic subpopulation breakdown like "race". Black people, Asians, Native Americans and White people are all HUMANS. So why would there be any difference between them in terms of the various things you suggest?

And when you ask that question is when you actually start looking at the topic seriously.

The null hypothesis is always "there's no effect" and you test against this.

This is how inferential statistics works.

 

[BNR32FAN]

So I have to ask: "why not?" This is the essentially the "null hypothesis" we are testing against.

If you have a population that has sub-populations then it is CRITICAL to understand why they are different. Especially for a wholly synthetic subpopulation breakdown like "race". Black people, Asians, Native Americans and White people are all HUMANS. So why would there be any difference between them in terms of the various things you suggest?

And when you ask that question is when you actually start looking at the topic seriously.

The null hypothesis is always "there's no effect" and you test against this.

This is how inferential statistics works.

Thats like saying that a fish tank full of the same type of fish should all swim in the same direction because they’re all the same type of fish. No some swim to the left, some right, some up, some down, it’s going to be completely random. It just depends on what the fish feels like doing at that particular moment.

 

[whatbogsends]

No that’s not what my post says. My post is saying the exact opposite. I’m saying you can’t expect any statistics to be equal across the board if they’re separate into racial categories. It would be extremely unlikely for all races to have the same percentage of low household income or colleges graduates, or cat owners or victims of baldness or Toyota drivers, anything you want to create a statistic for the numbers will be different for each race. They’re not going to be the same exact numbers in all race groups.

I was talking about what gaara4158 said in response to you, not what you said. I included your post (to which gaara replied) for context.

 

[whatbogsends]

So I have to ask: "why not?" This is the essentially the "null hypothesis" we are testing against.

If you have a population that has sub-populations then it is CRITICAL to understand why they are different. Especially for a wholly synthetic subpopulation breakdown like "race". Black people, Asians, Native Americans and White people are all HUMANS. So why would there be any difference between them in terms of the various things you suggest?

And when you ask that question is when you actually start looking at the topic seriously.

The null hypothesis is always "there's no effect" and you test against this.

This is how inferential statistics works.

One reason for differences between races/cultures would be natural selection.

Different societies/cultures value different things. How desirable(or undesirable) a particular trait is will propagate down through generations.

Different climate regions would similarly produce disparity in populations over time due to how well suited certain traits are to their environment.

There absolutely is institutional racism in the US, and it has a significant impact on outcomes, but believing that all different groups (be they racial, cultural, ethnic, geographic, or what have you) would have the same breakdowns in terms of preferences, achievement, etc. is foolishness.

The reason diversity is beneficial is because of the differences of people. If we were all the same, there would be no need to encourage diversity.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I was talking about what gaara4158 said in response to you, not what you said. I included your post (to which gaara replied) for context.

ok sorry my mistake

 

[DaisyDay]

sure what I was saying was can a larger number of whites possibly graduate college than Hispanics and blacks if less whites are motivated to do so?I don’t see how that could be possible.

I think you mean "fewer whites" rather than "less whites" - number, not quality. But if you have a greater number of whites than others, then a certain number can be dropouts and still have a greater number of graduates.

More importantly, in the middle and upper classes, it is easier to go to college than not - it is expected of you and the parents help find you the college and help with the financing if not pay for it entirely themselves, whereas if you are from a community where most people do not go to college, then you have to figure it out for yourself, pay for it yourself and overcome the discouragement of friends, family and school counselors.

 

[gaara4158]

When people make the argument that expected outcomes should be equal (and they do), they are implicitly saying that racism is the only factor which explains the difference.

We all know there are a number of surrounding factors influencing life outcomes for any given group of people. The fact that there is a difference when split by race implies that the surrounding factors are generally different between different races. When these factors include social, economic, and legal systems (and they do) that’s called institutional racism. Institutional racism, then, is more than a single factor but an aggregate of nearly all of the most significant factors contributing to differences in life outcomes between races. It is difficult to come up with a significant factor affecting races as a group that doesn’t fall within this definition.

Moreover, when other potential factors are discussed, many immediately cry "racism" rather than discussing the other factors. Reducing the discussion to an oversimplification doesn't serve to simplify the discussion, it serves to impede it. Your question which i responded to in my initial post appeared to be one of these oversimplifications:

It is an oversimplification to dismiss the subject of institutional racism as obfuscatory accusations of racist actors. The two are not the same.

We need to acknowledge the complexity of privilege and the impacts of institutional racism before we can address it. When arguments are made about white privilege, the implicit thrust is that all whites have privilege. While "all whites" may benefit in some way due to institutional racism, the sum of an individuals privilege is not necessarily greater by the simple fact of being white. A poor white from a low economic community is likely less privileged than many people of color from affluent parents/in affluent areas. The lack of articulation of the problem coupled with the rigidness of many of it's adherents stifles conversation and is counterproductive in working toward a solution.

I agree that there are difficulties in communicating the complexities of problems as esoteric as institutional racism and white privilege, especially in a culture where most people stop reading at the headlines and don’t bother to verify the facts spun to them by their preferred pundits. That’s why these exchanges need to occur.

Right there you seem to be saying that expectations from various racial and cultural groups should be essentially the exact same. In that post, you are suggesting that institutional racism is the only cause of the differences in outcomes without actually saying it.

Well, if there’s something other than the way we engage with social, economic, and legal institutions that has a defining influence on our life outcomes, let me know. Otherwise the fact that different races and cultures lend themselves better to the way these institutions function is something that falls neatly into the category of institutional racism, and I am not uncomfortable laying the blame squarely at its feet.

 

[Aldebaran]

I am always fascinated by how resistant some people are to accepting that others might be offended by something.

You seem to think that if YOU are not personally offended by something that no one has a right to be. So you assume that people being offended by Trump's virulent bigoted comments means they just "have it out" for good ol' Trump.

Like I said: you can prove to me how much you BELIEVE this truly and deeply by going into work (when you are allowed back on site after this COVID thing) and saying things like calling COVID "Kung Flu" in front of any Asian American you work with. I really would love to hear how you made it through your trip to HR.

Now, I'm not going to lie..."kung flu" is funny. But offensive. And, sadly, Trump is PRESIDENT OF ALL AMERICANS, not just the white ones he likes the most. There are OTHER types of Americans that Trump probably doesn't care much for, but sadly his job description is one of representing ALL OF US.

Not just the deplorables like him.

So, how brave are you REALLY? How much do you REALLY believe Trump's comments are pure as the driven snow? I'll believe YOU the minute you try saying these Trumpisms in front of various ethnic groups.

Until that time I'll just assume that, like most Trump supporters, you talk a good game.

I'm offended when I see monuments that mark historical events being destroyed. I'm offended when the history of my country gets rewritten to conform to the wishes of the most violent people on the Left side of society. I'm offended when businesses feel coerced into changing their names or logos to conform to those violent individuals. I'm offended when the mainstream media glorifies the violence from the Left that it used to condemn from the Right.

Does any of that matter to you?

 

[gaara4158]

I'm offended when I see monuments that mark historical events being destroyed. I'm offended when the history of my country gets rewritten to conform to the wishes of the most violent people on the Left side of society. I'm offended when businesses feel coerced into changing their names or logos to conform to those violent individuals. I'm offended when the mainstream media glorifies the violence from the Left that it used to condemn from the Right.

Does any of that matter to you?

Half of that is stuff you made up, and the other half is capitalism. I think we can work together, comrade.

 

[Aldebaran]

Half of that is stuff you made up, and the other half is capitalism. I think we can work together, comrade.

Just as "white privilege" and "systemic racism" is made up?

 

[Halbhh]

Please be respectful in this thread regardless of the opinions of others! Thank you!

I don't know about you, but for me, something about the Black Lives Matter movement just seems a little... off to me. I can't quite put my finger on it, but something about it doesn't seem right, and it's deeply unsettling to me that everyone has jumped on the bandwagon to declare that they stand with BLM.

Now, I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with believing that "black lives matter" because, in actuality, they DO matter! Everyone's life matters, and I think that it's okay that we're focusing on black lives mattering too right now... BUT, at the same time, I think there's something very wrong going on when there are "white" people apologizing for being white, police officers being targeted with awful slogans that say that they're ALL terrible people, and people are using the name of BLM to violently riot in the streets.

But I think one of the things that unsettles me the most is the fact that just about every single company and celebrity, even overseas, have said that they are standing with BLM. Something about that tips me off as very blatant "virtue-signaling" and like they're using this to profit off of us. Maybe this last point has more to do with the companies and not the BLM movement itself, but it still makes me thing something really "not right" is going on here. In other words, I'm highly skeptical of everyone and everything right now.

Is it just me? Am I crazy in thinking that something might not be so right about the BLM movement?? Someone please let me know.

You may have heard excerpts from the American Civil Rights movement of the 1960s?

Martin Luther King Jr. (MLK) was a Christian preacher, and part of a group of pastors -- 'SCLC' meant "Southern Christian Leadership Conference".

MLK used the language of the Bible in his speeches.

That was a very good thing.

You might notice that's largely missing in much of the leadership today of this movement today.

---------------

The other day someone posted a thread trying to claim BLM was of the antiChrist. But a movement mostly led without God isn't automatically at the level of the 'antiChrist'....

All the world without God is lost. All.

All 5 million clubs/groups/movements/ideas without God -- lostness.

----------------
The real 'anti-Christ' will be quite a bit more serious and deadly than a modern protest movement that brings in some fringe stuff in dilute the reasonable desire for improvements, and mixing it all together, good and bad.

But don't cry "wolf", when you notice a small stray cat going along.

If people really want to learn more about the anti-Christ, then they need to read the Bible, and stop listening to the latest ad-hoc made up theories someone comes up with.


Maybe....the father of lies is at work in this mislabeling BLM as anti-Christ --

To make people drop their guard about a real Anti-Christ....one way would be to misuse the term over and over and over...

Until people begin to just always ignore it, all the time....

"AntiChrist" this and "AntiChrist" that, over and over, until most people begin to always ignore the term..............

That might help prevent people from paying attention when the real Anti-Christ does finally show up, and real warnings are given, for the first time.

 

[rjs330]

Systemic racism clearly doesn’t keep Asians from outperforming other demographics. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Perhaps a good work ethic is especially valued in Asian cultures. Is that answer satisfactory to you, or do you want to know why many Asian immigrants bring an outstanding work ethic with them?

No one, and I mean no one is arguing that institutional racism is the only explanation for the statistical differences between different racial demographics. The goal here is to get people to acknowledge that it exists, and that it’s worth fixing.

I think culture plays a huge part in the success of racial cultures. The culture of hard effort, stick to itiveness. You can see it in graduation rates, employment rates etc.

There is no such thing as institutional racism. It's been shown that blacks get higher prison sentences for drugs not because they are black but because they prefer certain drugs over others. Hey if they liked meth as much as whites it would be the same. Unless you can prove that the sentencing for their preferred drug of choice was written specifically to target blacks you're barking up the wrong tree. As I proved in another post sentencing for other Crimes is essentially the same as white people.

What you continually leave out is criminal behavior. If you don't commit crime you won't be in jail. So if all those black father's would take responsibility and work to take care of their families instead walking away the black community would be better off. It the black community valued education at a higher rate they would be better off. If 6% if the population is committing 50% of the violent crime, that should tell you something is wrong about the culture. It's not because of race.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I think you mean "fewer whites" rather than "less whites" - number, not quality. But if you have a greater number of whites than others, then a certain number can be dropouts and still have a greater number of graduates.

More importantly, in the middle and upper classes, it is easier to go to college than not - it is expected of you and the parents help find you the college and help with the financing if not pay for it entirely themselves, whereas if you are from a community where most people do not go to college, then you have to figure it out for yourself, pay for it yourself and overcome the discouragement of friends, family and school counselors.

That’s why the military is such a great option for low income people seeking to go to college.

 

[rjs330]

I think you mean "fewer whites" rather than "less whites" - number, not quality. But if you have a greater number of whites than others, then a certain number can be dropouts and still have a greater number of graduates.

More importantly, in the middle and upper classes, it is easier to go to college than not - it is expected of you and the parents help find you the college and help with the financing if not pay for it entirely themselves, whereas if you are from a community where most people do not go to college, then you have to figure it out for yourself, pay for it yourself and overcome the discouragement of friends, family and school counselors.

Perhaps those communities should alter their expectations. You know going to college and figuring out how to pay for it, brings character and strength. Struggle is good for you and NOT and excuse. Especially these days when access to student loans is so available. And universities are trying to get African Americans to come.

 

[whatbogsends]

It looks like we've come full circle.

No one, and I mean no one is arguing that institutional racism is the only explanation for the statistical differences between different racial demographics.

Well, no one, except this guy:

Well, if there’s something other than the way we engage with social, economic, and legal institutions that has a defining influence on our life outcomes, let me know. Otherwise the fact that different races and cultures lend themselves better to the way these institutions function is something that falls neatly into the category of institutional racism, and I am not uncomfortable laying the blame squarely at its feet.

Cultural development doesn't fall neatly into a byproduct of institutional racism. As i said before, statistics consistently show that in the US, Asians outperform whites (as well as other racial groups) both educationally and economically (i.e. income levels). I'm pretty sure we both agree that the reason for their success isn't a pro-Asian bias. You acknowledged this previously:

Systemic racism clearly doesn’t keep Asians from outperforming other demographics. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Perhaps a good work ethic is especially valued in Asian cultures. Is that answer satisfactory to you, or do you want to know why many Asian immigrants bring an outstanding work ethic with them?

Maybe you can finish this sentence for me: Asians outperform whites and other racial groups in the US and the reason is ___________.

Personally, my belief is that their culture values education and promotes work ethic. I may be incorrect, but from what i've seen, this is a reasonable explanation.

I acknowledge that institutional racism plays a large part in the disparate outcomes for black people in the US, but if i suggest that there could also be a cultural factor at play - such as black people not valuing educational achievement or fostering a hostility towards authority - i would be called a racist by many in these forums. I believe there are these cultural factors present, although i also believe that these cultural behaviors are a natural response to being oppressed and discriminated against for such an extended period of time. That being said, to improve outcomes, we not only need to address institutional racism - either ongoing or historic - but we need to find a way to change that culture. It's a path that begins at reform from the top, building trust, and ultimately involves those in those communities bringing about change in the culture.

There needs to be a better dialogue if we're going to get more people into agreement, because even though i am on your side - i believe institutional racism is a big problem that needs to be addressed - i find way many adherents frame the discussion as counterproductive to the end goal.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Thats like saying that a fish tank full of the same type of fish should all swim in the same direction because they’re all the same type of fish. No some swim to the left, some right, some up, some down, it’s going to be completely random. It just depends on what the fish feels like doing at that particular moment.

Okay - and is there any reason why you would expect the pink fish to swim to the right more than the blue fish? Or, given a sufficient quantity of fish of the same species (but with various chromatic variations), would you expect to see a roughly even distribution in directions between the colors?