Need help here! Trinitarians.

[The Liturgist]

Certainly there are creeds -- no question about it.

I was talking about the hierarchy that Christ explicitly states in John 14 and 16. But there is always "athanasian" as you point out.

Note that the Athanasian Creed, or Quincumque Vult, as it is perhaps better referred to, was most likely not authored by Pope* Athanasius of Alexandria, but it does reflect his doctrine. There are two minor variants of it also, due to the filioque controversy (there are several minor variants of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed of 381: the standard Western form with the filioque, the Eastern Orthodox / Oriental Orthodox form without, a variant used by the Armenians which adds a view additional statements which struck me as completely uncontroversial, and likewise a version used by the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East where the sentence structure is slightly different. But all of these built on the original Nicene Creed of 325, and that was the creed Athanasius dedicated himself to defending against the military and political might of the Roman Empire, which embraced Arianism on a massive scale following the death of Emperor Constantine, owing to the political machinations of Eusebius of Nicomedia.

Furthermore, the definitive fourth century work of Trinitarian theology was by Athanasius, De Incarnatione, and as is well known, the 27 book New Testament canon is first attested to in one of his encyclicals.

*The first Christian bishops to be styled Pope were the Archbishops of Alexandria, which was founded by Mark the Evangelist, and was historically second in precedence behind Rome and ahead of Antioch. To this day, the Patriarchs of the Greek and Coptic Orthodox Churches of Alexandria are both referred to as the Pope, a title the Archbishop of Rome would later adopt in the 6th century. However, the Pope of Alexandria has never in either the Greek or Coptic Orthodox Church been more than the bishop of Alexandria and the primus inter pares; he presides over the Holy Synod of bishops but is not considered infallible, lacks supremacy, cannot unilaterally depose a bishop, cannot make binding doctrinal definitions ex cathedra, and actually is not even allowed to celebrate the Divine Liturgy (Holy Communion) in the diocese of another bishop without their blessing.

 

[St_Worm2]

The Father is God, Jesus is God, the Holy Spirit is God. Three separate yet one God. God the Father is not the Son, the Father is not the Holy Spirit, The Son is not the Father, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is not the Father, The Holy Spirit is not the Son.

This ^

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[St_Worm2]

The Lutheran Twins help us understand what the Trinity is, what it is not, and why Trinity analogies never really work. Enjoy

--David

 

[Nick Moser]

“Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.” John 14:28 (KJV 1900)

“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.” Philippians 2:5–8 (KJV 1900)

My position is that Jesus did not stop being God, but made himself of no reputation as God, while making himself of great reputation as man. And so people naturally see the manhood of Jesus in scripture before they see his divinity. The manhood needs no special revelation, but his Messiahship does. As in the case of Peter to whom God revealed Christ's divinity (Messiahship).

“And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” John 17:5 (KJV 1900)

Going to his Father who is greater means Jesus returns to his former greatness.

The Blessed Trinity is one God in three Divine Persons. (Psalms 33:6; Isaiah 6:3; Matthew 28:19; John 1:7.) God, the Father, who is characterized by the creation of beings and their attraction (Genesis 1:1; Isaiah 44:24; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:2.), is neither begotten, nor proceeds from any other Person. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, is the Logos, the articulated intelligence (Psalms 33:6, John 1:1.), and is from all eternity begotten of the Father but not made. (John 3:16 Hebrews 1:2-8.) Lastly, the Holy Ghost, sanctifier from all eternity proceeds from the Father. It is impossible to comprehend the inner mystery of the Godhead; but it is affirmed on the infallible testimony of the Word of God. The things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. — (I Corinthian 2:11.)But we do know all of absolutely equal divine majesty. The Father is true God, the Son equally true God, and the Holy Ghost true God; but yet so that in the three Persons there is only one Tri-personal God.

 

[Sophrosyne]

I was arguing with a non Christian and pointed out that God is greater than Jesus so it kind of like a Big God, small god thing. Anyway from me to clarify things to him.

John 14:6-13

New International Version
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will knowa]">[a] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

 

[BobRyan]

The Blessed Trinity is one God in three Divine Persons. (Psalms 33:6; Isaiah 6:3; Matthew 28:19; John 1:7.) God, the Father, who is characterized by the creation of beings and their attraction (Genesis 1:1; Isaiah 44:24; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:2.), is neither begotten, nor proceeds from any other Person. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, is the Logos, the articulated intelligence (Psalms 33:6, John 1:1.), and is from all eternity begotten of the Father but not made. (John 3:16 Hebrews 1:2-8.) Lastly, the Holy Ghost, sanctifier from all eternity proceeds from the Father. It is impossible to comprehend the inner mystery of the Godhead; but it is affirmed on the infallible testimony of the Word of God. The things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. — (I Corinthian 2:11.)But we do know all of absolutely equal divine majesty. The Father is true God, the Son equally true God, and the Holy Ghost true God; but yet so that in the three Persons there is only one Tri-personal God.

Amen.

And yet you can still find "this" out there.

Jan 9.. 2020 "Heretic of the week" article at Catholic Herald
"three separate Divine Persons rather than the orthodox doctrine of Trinity;"
Heretic of the week: Ellen G White - Catholic Herald

She believed in "One God" Deut 6:4 in "Three Persons" Matt 28:19, she never used the phrase "three separate divine persons" ... possibly because even in the human case 1 Peter 1:11 says "The Spirit of Christ within them" referring to Bible writers filled with the Holy Spirit... if that is the case with humans - how much more complex must it be among the members of the Trinity?

 

[Gregorikos]

The simplest explanation:

Jesus was always God, co-equal and consubstantial with the Father. John 1:1
He became a man. John 1:14
To become a man, he had to empty himself. Philippians 2:6-7

Any time the Bible speaks of Jesus as less than the Father, it is speaking of His humanity.

 

[Nick Moser]

http://apostles-creed.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Orthodox-Confession-of-Faith-Mogilas.pdf

This also explains it well

 

[ABCthings]

This ^

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Just see this. And I totally disagree.

I believe the Father == Son == Holy sprit
God in three form.

 

[All4Christ]

Just see this. And I totally disagree.

I believe the Father == Son == Holy sprit
God in three form.

It sounds like you disagree with what the Anglican Church teaches.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Just see this. And I totally disagree.

I believe the Father == Son == Holy sprit
God in three form.

No, the Father is not the Son and not the Holy Spirit but ALL share essentially the same "mind" in that they always do and think what the others want and think to be done. I once read somewhere that described the 3 persons of God as such:
The Father is the planner, The Son is the doer (creator), and The Holy Spirit is the empowerer and revealer.
In the sense that EACH separately is God and Combined they make the Godhead (also God) then it doesn't matter that they are different as EACH is an integral agent of the Godhead. Just think of God as being triple strength because of 3 persons that differ and are EACH God and combined they are also God.... you have 3 times the power of any single person of God if that makes any sense.
Essentially having the "mind" of God in that aspect each is identical to the other sharing the Godhead together but individually they are different.

 

[Tigger45]

Just see this. And I totally disagree.

I believe the Father == Son == Holy sprit
God in three form.

What you are referring to is Modalism/Sabellianism.
Equal and the same are not synonyms.

You can have two cars equally as fast yet they are still different cars.

 

[Andrewn]

Equal and the same are not synonyms.

You can have two cars equally as fast yet they are still different cars.

How is having 3 cars that are equally as fast different from Tritheism? The 3 cars are 3 cars, aren't they? They may be the same brand but still they're 3 cars.

Unfortunately, what you're saying is what most Christians believe the Trinity means (as shown in other posts).

No, the Father is not the Son and not the Holy Spirit but ALL share essentially the same "mind" in that they always do and think what the others want and think to be done.

How is this different from Mormon Tritheism? Do an experiment: Post your message to Mormons and see if they agree or disagree with it.

It sounds like you disagree with what the Anglican Church teaches.

Actually, Eastern Orthodox have much better understanding of the Trinity than the Western understanding. Perhaps a majority of EO don't know their Church's teaching.

 

[Tigger45]

How is having 3 cars that are equally as fast different from Tritheism? The 3 cars are 3 cars, aren't they? They may be the same brand but still they're 3 cars.

Unfortunately, what you're saying is what most Christians believe the Trinity means (as shown in other posts).


The car analogy works fine when showing that they are different yet equal but falls apart when establishing their oneness as does most analogies I know. But it does still establish that cars can be equal but not the same. I do believe the Lutheran Satire video summarizes proper Trinitarian distinctions quite well that was posted earlier in this thread.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Just see this. And I totally disagree.

I believe the Father == Son == Holy sprit
God in three form.

Then your understanding is heterodox.

 

[Sophrosyne]

How is this different from Mormon Tritheism? Do an experiment: Post your message to Mormons and see if they agree or disagree with it.

You do the experiment, I'm not interested and this forum isn't the place to talk about Mormonism (LDS) it isn't traditional theology and yes I do know the difference.

 

[All4Christ]

How is having 3 cars that are equally as fast different from Tritheism? The 3 cars are 3 cars, aren't they? They may be the same brand but still they're 3 cars.

Unfortunately, what you're saying is what most Christians believe the Trinity means (as shown in other posts).


How is this different from Mormon Tritheism? Do an experiment: Post your message to Mormons and see if they agree or disagree with it.


Actually, Eastern Orthodox have much better understanding of the Trinity than the Western understanding. Perhaps a majority of EO don't know their Church's teaching.

I’m very familiar with our teaching. Discussing the teachings from the Cappodocian fathers would especially be an interesting discussion.

However, what the previous poster said does not match the Anglican Church’s teachings (or any traditional Church’s teaching including Orthodox) from what I’ve read and heard. (God in three forms sounds a lot like modalism).

 

[Andrewn]

“He dreamt that the whole world was condemned to a terrible strange new plague that had come to Europe from the depths os Asia. Everyone was to be destroyed except a few chosen ones. Some sort of new microbe was attacking people’s bodies, but these microbes were endowed with intelligence and will. Men attacked by them became instantly furious and mad. But never had men considered themselves so intellectual and so completely in possession of the truth as these sufferers, never had they considered their decisions, their scientific conclusions, their moral convictions so infallible. Whole villages, whole towns and peoples were driven mad by the infection. Everyone was excited and did not understand one another. Each thought that he alone had the truth and was wretched looking at the others, beat himself on the breast, wept, and wrung his hands."

Fyodor Dostoevsky in CRIME AND PUNISHMENT

The dream gets even more interesting later. But I'm sure we're all familiar with history.

 

[St_Worm2]

Just see this. And I totally disagree.

I believe the Father == Son == Holy sprit
God in three form.

Hello again ABCthings, if you have the time (4 min) I think you'll enjoy the Lutheran Twins Trinity presentation in post #23. They discuss a number of non-Trinitarian Godhead formulas, including modalism, in a humorous and interesting way.

Near the end of the video, the "Twins" point us back to the church's most important historic creed concerning the Trinity, The Athanasian Creed (which I will include for you at the bottom of this post).

Finally, as Anglican theologian, Dr. J. I. Packer says,

The Old Testament constantly insists that there is only one God, the self-revealed Creator, who must be worshiped and loved exclusively (Deut. 6:4–5; Isa. 44:6–45:25). The New Testament agrees (Mark 12:29–30; 1 Cor. 8:4; Eph. 4:6; 1 Tim. 2:5) but speaks of three personal agents, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, working together in the manner of a team to bring about salvation (Rom. 8; Eph. 1:3–14; 2 Thess. 2:13–14; 1 Pet. 1:2). The historic formulation of the Trinity (derived from the Latin word trinitas, meaning “threeness”) seeks to circumscribe and safeguard this 'mystery' (not explain it; that is beyond us), and it confronts us with perhaps the most difficult thought that the human mind has ever been asked to handle. It is not easy; but it is true. ~Packer, J. I. (1993). Concise theology: a guide to historic Christian beliefs ​

--David
p.s. - see (principally) paragraphs 2-3 below. Just FYI, "catholic" here means universal (IOW, it's not a reference to the Roman "Catholic" Church in this case)

The Athanasian Creed
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith; Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord; And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead; He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty; From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies; and shall give account of their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.
.
​

 

[hedrick]

What you are referring to is Modalism/Sabellianism.
Equal and the same are not synonyms.

You can have two cars equally as fast yet they are still different cars.

The term "forms" doesn't necessarily imply modalism. What is clearly modalism is saying that the distinction is just different ways God interacts with us, but that there's no distinction within God himself. But "three forms" can certainly imply that the one God exists throughout eternity in three forms. That's not necessarily modalism.

One of the problems with the essense / person language is that although everyone agrees on the language, there's no agreement on what it means. The East tends to start with three things and show how they are so united that they form one. The West tends to start with one and show that there is some kind of distinction within him. In Augustine, it's pretty clear that God is one thing, but that he has enough distinction so that there can be a relationship of love within him. The Catholic Encyclopedia says: "the same mind will have a three-fold consciousness, knowing itself in three ways in accordance with its three modes of existence." This is an authoritative source on pre-Vatican 2 Catholic theology. You'd have to be very bold to accuse it of being heretical, but this pushes the Western approach fairly far.