Need help here! Trinitarians.

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MarkRohfrietsch

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The Son is from the Father, therefore there is a hierarchy.

"The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father..."
Scripture and The early Church Fathers dissigraee; which is why I defer to the Athanasian Creed. The tree persons do different things, but none is above the other, as they are also one:
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.
 
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trophy33

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Scripture and The early Church Fathers dissigraee; which is why I defer to the Athanasian Creed. The tree persons do different things, but none is above the other, as they are also one:
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.
The Son is from the Father, therefore the Father is the source.

And its (not just) a biblical principle that who comes first is greater.
 
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Clare73

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Jesus is God, God is Jesus, Jesus is the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is Jesus, The Holy Spirit is God the Father, God the Father is the Holy Spirit. They are three persons, one God. Not three offices, not 3 departments, they are 3 persons within the exact same God. To have three divine people up there would be polygamy. But God is not greater than Jesus, but Jesus is in submission to the father. And the Holy Spirit testifies of Christ, so the pecking order is God-Jesus-the Holy Spirit. But they are equal.
There are three divine persons in the one God. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three persons.
 
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Clare73

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So when Jesus became man some glory was taken from and how that He's with God He has his glory back.

Thank you all for your comments. :)
He set aside his glory, to resume it again when he returned to the Father.
 
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hedrick

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The Son is from the Father, therefore the Father is the source.

And its (not just) a biblical principle that who comes first is greater.
Typically I think one would say that they are ontologically the same but positionally different. That is, Scripture says that the Son obeys the Father. That doesn't imply an ontological difference. Sons are usually just as human as their fathers, and are otherwise also ontologically equal. Arianism didn't just say that the Son is subordinate in the sense that he obeys the Father and comes from him, but that he was not equal in nature.
 
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trophy33

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Typically I think one would say that they are ontologically the same but positionally different. That is, Scripture says that the Son obeys the Father. That doesn't imply an ontological difference. Sons are usually just as human as their fathers, and are otherwise also ontologically equal. Arianism didn't just say that the Son is subordinate in the sense that he obeys the Father and comes from him, but that he was not equal in nature.
A human son can exist without his father (after he is born).

But I think that the Son flows from Father continuously. Yes, the same substance, but also an eternal relationship of father and son.
 
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Andrewn

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The Son is from the Father, therefore there is a hierarchy. "The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father..."

The Son is from the Father, therefore the Father is the source. And its (not just) a biblical principle that who comes first is greater.

A human son can exist without his father (after he is born). But I think that the Son flows from Father continuously. Yes, the same substance, but also an eternal relationship of father and son.
"The Son or Word proceeds from the Father by intellectual generation. This means that the thought or the Word of the Father is a perfect image of himself. This Word, however, is not separate or distinct from the Father, since his thinking is identical with his existence."

The Son Is Equal to the Father

As soon as you start thinking which One is greater, you have split the One God into Two Gods in your mind.

The Father and the Son are One, this is what Christ said.
 
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klutedavid

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The Son is from the Father, therefore there is a hierarchy.

"The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father..."
The Father is God and so is the Word, the Son. They are fully equal and both will be honored exactly the same.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Jesus is God, God is Jesus, Jesus is the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is Jesus, The Holy Spirit is God the Father, God the Father is the Holy Spirit. <Snip>

What you have stated is hetrodox and heretical. Below is a sumary of the Biblical and orthodox teaching of the Church:
trinity1-320x345.jpg


If you truly believe what you stated in the first sentence of your post above, then you are not only at odds all of the main line Churches, but are posting unorthodox doctrine in a Christians Only forum. This is against Christian Forums Statement of Faith, which is the Nicene Creed.

Both the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds were compiled to combat such unortodox teaching; in this case this is the heresy of Modalism.
 
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Andrewn

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To @createdtoworship:

If you truly believe what you stated in the first sentence of your post above, then you are not only at odds all of the main line Churches, but are posting unorthodox doctrine in a Christians Only forum. This is against Christian Forums Statement of Faith, which is the Nicene Creed.

Both the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds were compiled to combat such unortodox teaching; in this case this is the heresy of Modalism.
The Nicene Creed effectively corrects Arianism and Sabellianism but does not correct Tritheism. It's possible that the latter was not a threat in the 4th century. Even Mormons may in some sense agree with the Nicene Creed, depending on how "essence" is defined.

I'm interested in knowing how former Muslims @anna ~ grace and @Hazelelponi understand the Holy Trinity. I suspect that their views would be more accurate because Jesus' apostles were Jews who had believed that God is One above all other theology.
 
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