Hades Is A Real Place of Torment and Agony

[ClementofA]

This is an erroneous and misleading statement. You don't know which if any translation(s) is literal. What this statement, in fact, means is any version(s) which supports UR teaching states....

Considering, then, that the Greek word aionios has a range of meanings, biased men should not have rendered the word in Mt.25:46 by their theological opinions as "everlasting". Thus they did not translate the word, but interpreted it. OTOH the versions with age-lasting, eonian & the like gave faithful translations & left the interpreting up to the readers as to what specific meaning within the "range of meanings" the word holds in any specific context.

What biased scholars who agreed with the Douay & KJV traditions of the dark ages "church" (of Inquisitions, Crusades, burning opposers to death with fire & their writings) have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own opinions, which is shameful.

"Add not to His words, lest He reason with thee, And thou hast been found false."(Prov.30:6)

"After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."

Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Three | Concordant Publishing Concern

LYING SCRIBES...AIONION:

Could most modern translations be in error?

Most Bible translations (=opinions of Scripture) be in error? (Micah, traditions, Gospels) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

the finiteness of "eternal life" (aionon zoe) in John?

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

• Tatian the Assyrian - Address of Tatian to the Greeks - Chapter 14. (XIV)
(120-180 A.D.)

ANF2 Address of Tatian to the Greeks


"And as we, to whom it now easily happens To Die, Afterwards Receive The Immortal With Enjoyment,
Or The Painful With Immortality ......."

.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I hate to keep making this so simple that a 7th grader could see it.

Well, let me break it down even further then:

for this is right and acceptable before God our Saviour, who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth; (1 Tim 2:3-4)

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. (1 Tim 4:10)

If God wills that all be saved, and is the saviour of all, what then?

However.....is that what God said would happen?

Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Yes, and? They go into the same fire, and as I've shown you, ALL THE NATIONS emerge repentant (Rev 15:4, 20:13, 21:8, 21:24-26, 22:2, 22:17).

2 Peter 2:4
"For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; "

Right. And at the judgment into the LoF, where they get worked over forever and a day, until they emerge repentant.

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Ok. Nobody is insisting the devil will be saved. But it stands to reason that after ages and ages, eons of time (I reckon under 2 minutes, although we're 'beyond time' in the eschaton), he too will be overcome by love. You really think the devil can hold out against God forever? Have a little faith in God's supremacy.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Luke 16 is NOT a parable.

In an attempt to sidestep the Biblical doctrine of eternal judgment in hellfire, certain groups have resorted to watering down one of the clearest and most graphic passages of hell. Such people say that Luke 16:19-31—the account of the Rich Man and Lazarus—is merely a “parable,” figurative language rather than literal truth.

Luke 16:19 does not begin with, “And he speak this parable unto them….” If the account of the rich man and Lazarus were a parable, the Holy Spirit should have made sure to notify the audience that this “graphic story” was merely a parable and not literal truth. Remember, this passage has been used for centuries to defend the reality of eternal hellfire. The implications are quite severe if we take Luke 16:19-31 as literal truth. Should not the Holy Spirit, having foreseen the alleged “misusage” of the passage in the coming centuries, made every attempt in the context to indicate that it was symbolic and nonliteral? You can search Luke chapter 16 for the rest of eternity, my dear readers, and never see where Jesus clearly indicated verses 19 through 31 as figurative .
Is Luke 16:19-31 a parable?

Well congratulations. You must accept literal Biblical cosmology of a flat, stationary and enclosed Earth then, which is far more amenable to the arguments you present. No? It's such a 'facepalm' moment when I see believers treating Gen 1 and 2 as an 'allegorical poem' and Rev 20-22 (and rich deep parables like this one) as literal denotative material. It's the stuff b-grade nightmares are made on.

There's a Catholic criticism of Protestantism which goes something like 'They're right about all the wrong things and wrong about all the right things.' You gotta know when to 'go literal' and when to 'go metaphorical'.

 

[Der Alte]

...
Ok. Nobody is insisting the devil will be saved. But it stands to reason that after ages and ages, eons of time (I reckon under 2 minutes, although we're 'beyond time' in the eschaton), he too will be overcome by love. You really think the devil can hold out against God forever? Have a little faith in God's supremacy.

Please explain to me how someone who is thrown into a lake of fire for any period of time will suddenly "be overcome by love" for God who put him in the fire? Why doesn't that happen in this life when criminals are put in prison?

 

[Major1]

Well congratulations. You must accept literal Biblical cosmology of a flat, stationary and enclosed Earth then, which is far more amenable to the arguments you present. No? It's such a 'facepalm' moment when I see believers treating Gen 1 and 2 as an 'allegorical poem' and Rev 20-22 (and rich deep parables like this one) as literal denotative material. It's the stuff b-grade nightmares are made on.

There's a Catholic criticism of Protestantism which goes something like 'They're right about all the wrong things and wrong about all the right things.' You gotta know when to 'go literal' and when to 'go metaphorical'.

Thank you the compliment!!!!!

YES, I am a believer in the LITERAL word of God, and YES, the Bible itself tells us when there are Scriptures that need to be understood as Allegorical or a Poem.

The problem comes when MEN decide what is not literal instead of the Bible
....."Sola Scriptura was the cry of the reformers".

A good rule of thumb is that if the literal interpretation of a passage makes sense, then we shouldn’t try to take it any other way.

In Romans 15:4 Paul wrote........
“For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through the endurance taught in the Scriptures and the encouragement they provide we might have hope.”

 

[Major1]

Well, let me break it down even further then:

for this is right and acceptable before God our Saviour, who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth; (1 Tim 2:3-4)

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. (1 Tim 4:10)

If God wills that all be saved, and is the saviour of all, what then?



Yes, and? They go into the same fire, and as I've shown you, ALL THE NATIONS emerge repentant (Rev 15:4, 20:13, 21:8, 21:24-26, 22:2, 22:17).



Right. And at the judgment into the LoF, where they get worked over forever and a day, until they emerge repentant.



Ok. Nobody is insisting the devil will be saved. But it stands to reason that after ages and ages, eons of time (I reckon under 2 minutes, although we're 'beyond time' in the eschaton), he too will be overcome by love. You really think the devil can hold out against God forever? Have a little faith in God's supremacy.

You said............
"Ok. Nobody is insisting the devil will be saved. But it stands to reason that after ages and ages, eons of time (I reckon under 2 minutes, although we're 'beyond time' in the eschaton), he too will be overcome by love. You really think the devil can hold out against God forever? Have a little faith in God's supremacy."

Right there is the problem between YOU and ME.

What you just said is completely YOUR opinion. There is NOT ONE single Scripture that even suggests
that such a thing could happen.

In fact the Scriptures say exactly the opposite.

Rev. 20:10.........
" And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

No matter what the Bible clearly says, if it does not fit what you want it to say, you reject it.

You in fact are saying that "YOU" are more important than what God is. YOUR thoughts and opinions are more important that God's Written Word.

That my friend speaks of Proverbs 16:18 which is an "Attitude" problem.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Please explain to me how someone who is thrown into a lake of fire for any period of time will suddenly "be overcome by love" for God who put him in the fire? Why doesn't that happen in this life when criminals are put in prison?

Many men and women find God while 'doing porridge'. In fact, Jesus came to free the prisoners, it's in his mission statement.

 

[Major1]

Many men and women find God while 'doing porridge'. In fact, Jesus came to free the prisoners, it's in his mission statement.

Why not post the Bible Scripture which says that people placed in the Lake of Fire will be able to accept Christ and leave the Lake of Fire.

 

[Major1]

By definition universalism says nothing at all about Satan. See the posts i just posted to you a few minutes ago.






""I am aware of 'this pastor'. The verse which hit him like a ton of bricks as he wrestled with a congregant challenging him with Ultimate Reconciliation was the following;

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling but demons. Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."




How about Augustine, the champion of endless tortures, even for infants?

Or Scripture, unlike the twisted excuse for it you posted above:

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)

And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Rev.20:10, Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983)

...and the Adversary that had been deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [were] both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented
day and night unto the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10, Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959

American Standard Version footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
Revised Version, 1881 footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.

12 points re forever and ever being finite:
For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Also, "forever and ever" is nonsense. No time can be added to "forever".

forever and ever: a poor translation:

Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?

Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

#4

Aeon - Wikipedia

AIN -- AINIOS

The Greek Words "aion" and "aionios," do these words mean "eternal" or "everlasting"?

Revelation 20:10.........
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

 

[Major1]

Many men and women find God while 'doing porridge'. In fact, Jesus came to free the prisoners, it's in his mission statement.

Porridge is a food commonly eaten as a breakfast cereal dish, made by boiling ground, crushed or chopped starchy plants—typically grain—in water or milk.

I fail to see what that means in any way to the discussion.

 

[Major1]

This is an erroneous and misleading statement. You don't know which if any translation(s) is literal. What this statement, in fact, means is any version(s) which supports UR teaching states....

If anyone looks long enough they will find what they are looking for.

Example:
The earth is indeed flat.

Saint Robert said so in 1453 and if he said so it has to be law!!!
http:flatearth@peoplewhodonotknowanybetter

 

[Shrewd Manager]

In fact the Scriptures say exactly the opposite.

No, the translation 'forever and ever' is redundant and therefore debatable and/or the use of hyperbole may arguably signify some other result.

The real difference we have regards the purpose and function of the final judgement and the LoF. You say it's punitive and retributive, we say it's restorative - for all things were made through Christ, and in him they have their end.

Again, I've shown you the destiny of the nations as revealed in Revelation, but you just refuse to accept it.

No matter what the Bible clearly says, if it does not fit what you want it to say, you reject it.

You in fact are saying that "YOU" are more important than what God is. YOUR thoughts and opinions are more important that God's Written Word.

That my friend speaks of Proverbs 16:18 which is an "Attitude" problem.

All your accusations are just so much chaff to the wind. Just face it man, God is good. The end is as per the angel's gospel - glad tidings of great joy for all mankind. Hosanna in the highest!

'And the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be upon all' (Rev 22:21).

 

[Der Alte]

Many men and women find God while 'doing porridge'. In fact, Jesus came to free the prisoners, it's in his mission statement.

The prison recidivism rate in the US is 66+% but you are claiming 100% rehab in the lake of fire. With no, zero, no scripture. If the unrighteous in the LOF are overcome with love why doesn't it happen in this life?
There are no prisoners after death, everybody is dead. Jesus' mission statement was "to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,"
There are no "brokenhearted, captives, blind or bruised" after death they are all simply dead.
Jesus' mission was not, and He did not, preach to any dead people anywhere.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalms 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
Psalms 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

​

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Why not post the Bible Scripture which says that people placed in the Lake of Fire will be able to accept Christ and leave the Lake of Fire.

Nations are unbelievers:

The idols of the nations are but silver and gold, The work of man's hands. (Ps 135:15)

All nations will worship:

"Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; For ALL THE NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU, FOR YOUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS HAVE BEEN REVEALED." (Rev 15:4)

Unbelievers cast into the fire:

But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. (Rev 21:8)

Nations fall into line:

The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. (Rev 21:24)

Nations come for healing:

On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. (Rev 22:2)

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Porridge is a food commonly eaten as a breakfast cereal dish, made by boiling ground, crushed or chopped starchy plants—typically grain—in water or milk.

I fail to see what that means in any way to the discussion.

'Doing porridge' is a figurative expression for prison time. Sorry, I should have spelled it out.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

The prison recidivism rate in the US is 66+% but you are claiming 100% rehab in the lake of fire. With no, zero, no scripture. If the unrighteous in the LOF are overcome with love why doesn't it happen in this life?

Because the USA is not the Kingdom.

And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God. (Lk 18:27)

God can bring the chief of sinners to repentance. And that is what He wants:

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Tim 2:3-4)

Jesus' mission statement was "to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,"
There are no "brokenhearted, captives, blind or bruised" after death they are all simply dead.
Jesus' mission was not, and He did not, preach to any dead people anywhere.

The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. (Matt 11:5)

Do we not see Jesus raising the dead? Does God not raise Jesus from the dead? Is this not an article of faith of Christian doctrine?

And in the resurrection, the destiny of mankind is revealed.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

If anyone looks long enough they will find what they are looking for.

Example:
The earth is indeed flat.

Saint Robert said so in 1453 and if he said so it has to be law!!!
http:flatearth@peoplewhodonotknowanybetter

God says it's flat, true science (observation and experiment) agrees. You may deny, but there again is that lack of faith, my friend.

'It is better to trust in God that put your faith in man.' (Ps 118:8)

 

[Der Alte]

No, the translation 'forever and ever' is redundant and therefore debatable and/or the use of hyperbole may arguably signify some other result....

Nonsense! "aionos eis aionios" is a Hebraism. If one were to actually study rather than reading only whatever supports their assumptions/presuppositions they might learn this.
In Hebrew there were no superlatives so for emphasis they would double words. The earliest example of this in in Genesis 2:17 where God told Adam "In the day that you eat of the fruit you will surely die." In Hebrew that is "muth t'muth" "dying you will die." Of course Adam was not going to die twice.
You can read all about the more than 200 figures of speech in E.W. Bullinger's "Figures of Speech Used in the Bible." pp. 275ff.
Figures of speech used in the Bible: : Bullinger, E. W. (Ethelbert William), 1837-1913 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

 

[Der Alte]

Because the USA is not the Kingdom.
And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God. (Lk 18:27)...

So why doesn't God do that in this life instead of letting so many people continue in sin God knowing that He is going to throw them into the LOF then change their hearts and minds? According to UR God must want millions of people to die sinners so He can throw them into the LOF.