Hades Is A Real Place of Torment and Agony

[Shrewd Manager]

A lot of people once believed the earth was flat. That didn't make it flat. Just because a lot of people believe something has no bearing on its truth.

Um, earth is flat. If the unanimity of scripture on this issue isn't good enough for you, perhaps you'll investigate all the great empirical science around which proves it. Water always finds its level. Find me any body of standing water with a curve in it. And why not check out all the optical, laser, radio and other line-of-sight electromagnetic beam experiments which cement it.

Really brother, it gets so much better when you just accept God's truth.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

No sir I am not prepared to accept your thesis simply because that is not what The Scriptures in the Revelation tell us.

Sorry to hear that you're unable to see the forest for the trees there Major. I've shown you the passages that render the salvation of the nations undeniable in Revelation, which you are unable to explain away with any cogent argument.

Now as for me falling into unbelief. You do not know me my brother at all. If I post here what I am and what I have been doing for 50 years it would be bragging so I will not do that. I will however assure you that me falling into unbelief is the ONE thing you can stop worrying about.

I hope you're not one of those guys who demands hell for others because of all the sacrifices you've made. You know Jesus is against that kind of thinking.

As far as YOUR equation above allow me to now give you God's equation from
John 14:6...….
"I am the way the truth and the life and NO ONE comes to the Father except by me" ====INDIVIDUAL Salvation.

That there scripture is perfectly consistent with universalism. We affirm that ALL will come to Father by way of Christ. (eg the nations as per Rev 15:4, 20:24-26, 22:2 etc).

If you personally are not aware, allow me to say to you that in Universalism, as well as most any doctrine, Satan can work various false teachings through its adherents. No doctrine is immune to being twisted to make it acceptable to those who will not accept the truth.

That is true, and sadly no more true than when non-universalists mischaracterise the doctrine by way of 'strawman' fallacies.

Universalism says that ALL will be save LATER. Correct??/ YES IT IS!!!!

All have been saved (justified), all are being saved (sanctified) and all shall be saved (glorified). This is conventional systematic soteriology applied universally.

Just because many are being hardened and/or don't realise what Jesus has done for them does not mean they're not being saved, or that God will not have mercy upon all.

2 Corth. 6:2........
“At the acceptable time I listened to you, And on the day of salvation I helped you”; behold, now is “the acceptable time,” behold, now is “the day of salvation".

The Bible says that NOW---TODAY is the time to be saved not later.

Yes, the sooner the better, get saved now. Universalism of course embraces urgency to turn to God and accept Christ into one's life, but not to be motivated by avoiding eternal damnation. That's just psychological manipulation and spiritual terrorism.

Now from the web site of a well known Universalist Gregory McDonald comes this...…..
"But it has been pointed out that the logic of the arguments that I employ in chapter 1 of my book would entail a more radical conclusion - that God will redeem all fallen creatures, both human and angelic. Let's call this 'radical universalism".
The Evangelical Universalist: Universalism and the Salvation of Satan

He is saying and you are accepting it as true THAT IN THE END EVEN SATAN WILL BE SAVED.

But again, what does the Word of God actually say...…...Revelation 20:10-----
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

So my and YOUR choice is, who do I believe, Gregory McDonald and the Universalist theology, or the Word of God.

The difficulty with interpreting the devil's torments as eternal is that it suggests he's 'too hard' for Christ to save. Is the victory not greater if the devil repents in sackcloth and ashes, and returns as the ultimate prodigal son, ready to lead the Morning Stars angelic choir for the encore performance?

Salvation boasteth over damnation, it treadeth yea even trampleth it underfoot.

 

[ClementofA]

Sorry to hear that you're unable to see the forest for the trees there Major. I've shown you the passages that render the salvation of the nations undeniable in Revelation, which you are unable to explain away with any cogent argument.



I hope you're not one of those guys who demands hell for others because of all the sacrifices you've made. You know Jesus is against that kind of thinking.



That there scripture is perfectly consistent with universalism. We affirm that ALL will come to Father by way of Christ. (eg the nations as per Rev 15:4, 20:24-26, 22:2 etc).



That is true, and sadly no more true than when non-universalists mischaracterise the doctrine by way of 'strawman' fallacies.



All have been saved (justified), all are being saved (sanctified) and all shall be saved (glorified). This is conventional systematic soteriology applied universally.

Just because many are being hardened and/or don't realise what Jesus has done for them does not mean they're not being saved, or that God will not have mercy upon all.



Yes, the sooner the better, get saved now. Universalism of course embraces urgency to turn to God and accept Christ into one's life, but not to be motivated by avoiding eternal damnation. That's just psychological manipulation and spiritual terrorism.



The difficulty with interpreting the devil's torments as eternal is that it suggests he's 'too hard' for Christ to save. Is the victory not greater if the devil repents in sackcloth and ashes, and returns as the ultimate prodigal son, ready to lead the Morning Stars angelic choir for the encore performance?

Conversion boasteth over damnation.

Brilliant! This should be in a book. Required reading for all.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Brilliant! This should be in a book. Required reading for all.

What an honour it is to sing the Lord's Song!

 

[Der Alte]

...
The difficulty with interpreting the devil's torments as eternal is that it suggests he's 'too hard' for Christ to save. Is the victory not greater if the devil repents in sackcloth and ashes, and returns as the ultimate prodigal son, ready to lead the Morning Stars angelic choir for the encore performance?...

Wonderful, pie in the sky by and by, sentiments but no, zero, none scripture which states that.
This idea is arrived at by cobbling several disparate verses together and inferring that everyone, including Satan will be saved even after death.

 

[ClementofA]

Wonderful, pie in the sky by and by, sentiments but no, zero, none scripture which states that.
This idea is arrived at by cobbling several disparate verses together and inferring that everyone, including Satan will be saved even after death.

""I am aware of 'this pastor'. The verse which hit him like a ton of bricks as he wrestled with a congregant challenging him with Ultimate Reconciliation was the following;

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling but demons. Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."

Can Love Omnipotent save Satan

 

[Major1]

In all of this you've not mentioned anything about the church going to Heaven. Being delivered from wrath doesn't necessarily mean one is delivered from that time period. As I've pointed out, God hasn't ever removed His people from the earth when He's brought His wrath. Please show me where you see the church going to Heaven.

Regarding the post trib, I don't see where the problems exist. There will be people who aren't saved who go into the Tribulation. They will be the ones to procreate.

Also, are you aware that the pre-trib rapture idea is a recent development in Christianity. Post -trib was the eschatology from the very beginning.

In your post you spoke a good bit about being delivered from wrath and you spoke of a partial rapture but you haven't shown where the Church is going to Heaven.

YES I think that it certainly does.

Actually the Scriptures where the Rapture are found are about 2000 years old I believe.

I have done all I can for you Butch. You will not be able to understand it if you do not want to understand it.

 

[Major1]

A lot of people once believed the earth was flat. That didn't make it flat. Just because a lot of people believe something has no bearing on its truth. A lot of people believe in evolution, that doesn't make it true. As I've pointed out none of these "reasons" means it's not a parable. The reasoning used is flawed.
It starts the same as the parable before it, 'there was a certain rich man. The parable before that one starts with, 'there was a certain man'. Scripture records that Jesus only spoke to them with parables.

However, as I've stated, your starting with a flawed premise. The idea that man can live apart from the body cannot be established from Scripture.

I have posted the answer for you several times now so I am nto going to keep doing that.

Read post #611.

 

[Major1]

All does not mean all ?

1 Cor. 15:22

“For as in Adam some die, so also in Christ some shall be made alive. But each in his own order; Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished some rule and some authority and power.”

Rev. 5:13

“And some created things that are in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and some things in them, I heard saying, To Him who sits on the throne and the Lamb, be blessing and honour and glory and dominion and power forever.”

Col. 1:18-20

“He too is that head whose body is the Church, the Firstborn from the dead, he is to the Church the Source of its life, that in some things He might occupy the foremost place/ to be in some things alone supreme. For it pleased the Father that in him the divine nature in some of its fulness should dwell. And, having made peace through the blood of His cross, by him to reconcile some things unto Himself; by him, I say, whether they be things on earth, or things in heaven. And you that were sometimes alienated…”

Acts 3:20,21

“And He will send Jesus, your destined Christ, yet heaven must retain Him, until the restitution of some things. (when some things are put right)”

1 Cor. 15:28

“And when some things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put some things under Him, that God may be some in some.”

1 Cor. 15:25,27

“For He must reign until He hath put some enemies under His feet…For He hath put some things under His feet. But when He saith some things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put some things under Him.”

Romans 11:32

“For God has consigned some men to disobedience that He might have mercy upon some.”

Eph. 4:10

“Yea, He who came down is the same who is gone up, far above some heavens, that He might fill some things with His Presence.”

John 5:28

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which some that are in the graves shall hear His voice. Those who have done good will to live and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.”

1 Timothy 2:4

“For this is good and pleasing in the eyes of God our Saviour; who will have some men to be saved and come to an increasing knowledge of the truth.”

1 Timothy 2:6

“For there is one intermediary (One who brings God and men together) who gave Himself a ransom in behalf of some to be testified in due time.”

Cor. 5:15

“For the love of God overmasters us because we judge that if one died for some, then were some dead; And that His purpose in dying for some was that men, while still in life, should cease to live for themselves, and should live for Him who for their sake died and was raised to life.”

Col. 1:16

"For by Him were some things created, of things in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen (angels or archangels and some of the powers of Heaven)…some things were created by Him, and for Him (some were made by Christ for His own use and glory.)

John 3:35

“The Father loves the Son, and has given some things into His hand (has given Him control over less than everything). Whoever trusts on the Son possesses eternal life and he who does not obey the Son, God’s displeasure hangs over him continually.”

Gal. 3:20

“But the Scripture has concluded/consigned some without exception to the custody of sin, in order that the promise by faith in Christ Jesus might be given to those who believe in Him.”

Heb. 1:2

“God…hath in these days spoken unto us in His Son who is the predestined Lord of the universe. (whom he has appointed heir of some things)”

2 Cor. 5:14

“For the love of Christ constraineth/overmasters/compels/controls us, and this is the conviction we have reached; if one man died on behalf of some, then some thereby became dead men. Christ died for some, so that being alive should no longer mean living with our own life, but with his life who died for some of us and has risen again.”

Heb.8:11

“And they shall not teach some men his neighbor, and some his brother, saying get to know the Lord, for some of them shall know me from small to great. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness…”

Acts 10:36

"The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: He is Lord of some.

Rom. 11:36

“For from him some things come; through Him some things exists; and in him some things end.” (For of him and through him, and to him are some things.)

Eph. 4:6

“One Lord, one faith, one baptism. One God and Father of some, who is over some, and works through some, and dwells in some.”

Heb. 12:23

“To the festal gathering and Church of the first-born, enrolled as citizens in heaven, and to God the Judge of some men and unto the spirits of righteous ones made perfect.”

James 2:10

“For whomsoever shall keep the whole law, but fails in a single point, has become guilty of violating some.”

Romans 3:22,23

“…the righteous of God which comes by believing in Jesus Christ. …For some have sinned/ none have attained the glorious likeness of God/lack the glory that comes from God/ are deprived of the Divine splendour.”

John 17:2

“As thou has made him sovereign over some of mankind that he should give aeonios life to as many as thou hast given him.”

Romans 9:5

“The patriarchs are theirs and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. May God who is supreme above some, be blessed throughout the ages.”

2 Peter 3:9

“The Lord is not slack/does not loiter/ is not dilatory concerning his promise, according to some people’s conception of slowness; but He bears patiently with you, because it is not His will for any to be lost, but for some to come/reach repentance.”

Phil. 2:10,11

In order that in adoration of the Name of Jesus some knees will bow themselves and openly acknowledge with joy, in celebration and praise, that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. This profession and confession of His lordship shall be open and freely proclaimed, acknowledged joyfully by some beings in the heavens, by some beings on the earth and by some beings in the underworld.

John 12:32

“If I be lifted up, I will draw all unto Me.”

Radical Unbelievers Bible=

If I be lifted up, I will draw some unto Me.

Please Remember…

All does not radically mean all.

Whole is not whole.

All = Some

Which one of these passages is a synecdoche or a metonymy?

“And ALL the peoples of the earth shall see that thou art called by the name of Jehovah, and they shall be afraid of you” (Deuteronomy 28:10).

Here, “all the peoples of the earth” does NOT include Israel. In the same way, “go ye into all the world” is NOT inclusive of every race. Failure to understand this is the source of error in the modern popular evangelical teaching. Because of the importance of this matter, any person seeking truth can look through a concordance (Young’s is easiest) to satisfy themselves as to the right application of this word “pas” that is translated as “all” etc..

My position is quite clear. Our Father does not lose. He does not lose remnate leftover morsels of bread & fish! The broken and bruised masses for whom He is the at-one-ment are more important to Him: He loses NOTHING!

However....the Bible actually says in Luke 15 that there were 3 things that were lost, " a lost sheep, a lost coin, and a lost son".

What the loss our health--- Some of us have lost our jobs. Some of us have lost our marriages. Some of us have lost our loved ones. Some of us have lost our confidence. We live in a world that loses justice and mercy and peace.

 

[Major1]

Sorry to hear that you're unable to see the forest for the trees there Major. I've shown you the passages that render the salvation of the nations undeniable in Revelation, which you are unable to explain away with any cogent argument.



I hope you're not one of those guys who demands hell for others because of all the sacrifices you've made. You know Jesus is against that kind of thinking.



That there scripture is perfectly consistent with universalism. We affirm that ALL will come to Father by way of Christ. (eg the nations as per Rev 15:4, 20:24-26, 22:2 etc).



That is true, and sadly no more true than when non-universalists mischaracterise the doctrine by way of 'strawman' fallacies.



All have been saved (justified), all are being saved (sanctified) and all shall be saved (glorified). This is conventional systematic soteriology applied universally.

Just because many are being hardened and/or don't realise what Jesus has done for them does not mean they're not being saved, or that God will not have mercy upon all.



Yes, the sooner the better, get saved now. Universalism of course embraces urgency to turn to God and accept Christ into one's life, but not to be motivated by avoiding eternal damnation. That's just psychological manipulation and spiritual terrorism.



The difficulty with interpreting the devil's torments as eternal is that it suggests he's 'too hard' for Christ to save. Is the victory not greater if the devil repents in sackcloth and ashes, and returns as the ultimate prodigal son, ready to lead the Morning Stars angelic choir for the encore performance?

Salvation boasteth over damnation, it treadeth yea even trampleth it underfoot.

I hate to keep making this so simple that a 7th grader could see it.

Gregory MacDonald, author of The Evangelical Universalist (Cascade Books, 2006 & SPCK, 2008), does the odd bit of blogging and interacts with anyone who is interested in a chatting about issues surrounding universalism.


Monday, May 19, 2008
Universalism and the Salvation of Satan

Must a universalist believe that Satan will be saved?

The FACTS are that universalism teaches that even SATAN will be saved in the end.

The Evangelical Universalist: Universalism and the Salvation of Satan

Gregory MacDonald, author of The Evangelical Universalist (Cascade Books, 2006 & SPCK, 2008), does the odd bit of blogging and interacts with anyone who is interested in a chatting about issues surrounding universalism and he says-------
"But it has been pointed out that the logic of the arguments that I employ in chapter 1 of my book would entail a more radical conclusion - that God will redeem all fallen creatures, both human and angelic.

"Satan was once a good spiritual person who was later corrupted then the logic of my position is indeed that God could and would "
redeem him."

However.....is that what God said would happen?

Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

2 Peter 2:4
"For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; "

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

As always, the Universalists theology depends upon the direct rejection of the Word of God.

If anyone is comfortable with that, then wonderful and may God bless you!!!

 

[FineLinen]

“And ALL the peoples of the earth shall see that thou art called by the name of Jehovah, and they shall be afraid of you” (Deuteronomy 28:10).

Here, “all the peoples of the earth” does NOT include Israel. In the same way, go ye into all the world” is NOT inclusive of every race.

 

[Major1]

Very interesting, thank you.




If Jesus is indeed alluding to this passage in Deuteronomy, then is the purpose of the Rich man's suffering not also disclosed here, which is to move the priesthood to anger and jealousy towards Jesus for his reward/ inheritance and prompt introspection into their own foolish way of life?

That to me would be consistent with a number of other scriptures whereby God uses jealousy to bring Israel to repentance, perhaps most notably Romans:

But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. (Rom 11:13-14)

This is also the case where Jesus begins his ministry at the Nazarene Synagogue, suggesting that the Jews have missed the boat and God's favour/ grace will instead be given to the gentiles, in response to which they try to throw him off a cliff.

"And there were many lepers in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, but only Naaman the Syrian." And all the people in the synagogue were filled with rage as they heard these things; (Lk 4:27-28)

So, provoked to jealousy and rage in order that they might see their errors, the overarching purpose to be:

so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name. (Jn 20:31)

So the sufferings of the Rich Man are self-inflicted, the sins of pride/ arrogance, hypocrisy and wilful blindness, and those sins earn God's wrath, which provoke him to jealousy and rage at what he interprets as gross injustice at the beggars, hookers and tax men entering heaven before him. And, more importantly, his torments are instructive, corrective, and ultimately produce repentance and humility, the conversion to Christ.

So I don't see this parable as containing any special insights into the antechamber of Hades, but rather a colorful and provocative illustration of Jesus' 'usual' teachings. If I'm hearing you right, I think you'd concur?

Luke 16 is NOT a parable.

In an attempt to sidestep the Biblical doctrine of eternal judgment in hellfire, certain groups have resorted to watering down one of the clearest and most graphic passages of hell. Such people say that Luke 16:19-31—the account of the Rich Man and Lazarus—is merely a “parable,” figurative language rather than literal truth.

Luke 16:19 does not begin with, “And he speak this parable unto them….” If the account of the rich man and Lazarus were a parable, the Holy Spirit should have made sure to notify the audience that this “graphic story” was merely a parable and not literal truth. Remember, this passage has been used for centuries to defend the reality of eternal hellfire. The implications are quite severe if we take Luke 16:19-31 as literal truth. Should not the Holy Spirit, having foreseen the alleged “misusage” of the passage in the coming centuries, made every attempt in the context to indicate that it was symbolic and nonliteral? You can search Luke chapter 16 for the rest of eternity, my dear readers, and never see where Jesus clearly indicated verses 19 through 31 as figurative .
Is Luke 16:19-31 a parable?

 

[Major1]

Universalism says that Satan was once a good spiritual person who was later corrupted then the logic of my position is indeed that God could and would redeem him.

The Evangelical Universalist: Universalism and the Salvation of Satan

But God says in Revelation 20:10...….
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Joshua 24:15 ........
"But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."

 

[Major1]

 

[ClementofA]

Monday, May 19, 2008
Universalism and the Salvation of Satan

Must a universalist believe that Satan will be saved?

The FACTS are that universalism teaches that even SATAN will be saved in the end.

The Evangelical Universalist: Universalism and the Salvation of Satan

Here you begin by quoting from the site you linked to, yet my search of the page did not find the words you posted above, namely:

"The FACTS are that universalism teaches that even SATAN will be saved in the end."

In fact immediately after the statement "Must a universalist believe that Satan will be saved?" (as you quoted above) it states:

"Not necessarily. A universalist could believe that God will save all humans but perhaps not fallen angels."

Quite different from what you apparently have it saying above, that:

"The FACTS are that universalism teaches that even SATAN will be saved in the end."

Which is false.

By definition universalism means that all humans will be saved:

"a theological doctrine that all human beings will eventually be saved"

Definition of UNIVERSALISM

Universalism says nothing at all about Satan, his salvation, or even his existence.


********************************************



""I am aware of 'this pastor'. The verse which hit him like a ton of bricks as he wrestled with a congregant challenging him with Ultimate Reconciliation was the following;

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling but demons. Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."

Can Love Omnipotent save Satan

 

[ClementofA]

However.....is that what God said would happen?

Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

More literal and honest translations state:

Matthew 25:41 Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers. (CLV)

Online Parallel Study Bibles

Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers; (YLT)

"Then will He say to those at His left, "'Begone from me, with the curse resting upon you, into the Fire of the Ages, which has been prepared for the Devil and his angels. (WEY)

The same Greek words for "eternal fire" (Mt.25:41) are used in Jude 1:7:

Jude 7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian." (Jude 7, CLV)

Do you believe that the city of Sodom in Israel today is still burning from the fire that destroyed it? Will the burning be "eternal" or has the "eternal fire" already ended? In which case "eternal" is a deceptive translation & the fire was temporary, not "eternal".

Do you think the city of Sodom in Israel is still burning by that "eternal fire" today? Or has it long ago been extinguished & was not "eternal" but eonian & finite? BTW, the same phrase, "eonian fire" also appears twice in Matthew (25:41; 18:8). If the eonian fire of Jude 1:7 was finite, then why can't the same in Matthew's account be finite?

Were the bodies of the people of Sodom destroyed (killed) by that fire destroyed forever, i.e. endlessly annihilated. No, it is a temporary destruction until their resurrection. Their resurrection will reverse that destruction. IOW the resurrection will destroy that destruction. Love Omnipotent destroys and then He makes alive again what He destroyed:

"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand." (Dt.32:39)

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

 

[ClementofA]

Universalism says that Satan was once a good spiritual person who was later corrupted then the logic of my position is indeed that God could and would redeem him.

The Evangelical Universalist: Universalism and the Salvation of Satan

By definition universalism says nothing at all about Satan. See the posts i just posted to you a few minutes ago.

But God says in Revelation 20:10...….
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

He is saying and you are accepting it as true THAT IN THE END EVEN SATAN WILL BE SAVED.

""I am aware of 'this pastor'. The verse which hit him like a ton of bricks as he wrestled with a congregant challenging him with Ultimate Reconciliation was the following;

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling but demons. Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."

But again, what does the Word of God actually say...…...Revelation 20:10-----
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

So my and YOUR choice is, who do I believe, Gregory McDonald and the Universalist theology, or the Word of God.

How about Augustine, the champion of endless tortures, even for infants?

Or Scripture, unlike the twisted excuse for it you posted above:

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)

And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Rev.20:10, Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983)

...and the Adversary that had been deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [were] both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented
day and night unto the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10, Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959

American Standard Version footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
Revised Version, 1881 footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.

12 points re forever and ever being finite:
For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Also, "forever and ever" is nonsense. No time can be added to "forever".

forever and ever: a poor translation:

Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?

Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

#4

Aeon - Wikipedia

AIN -- AINIOS

The Greek Words "aion" and "aionios," do these words mean "eternal" or "everlasting"?

 

[FineLinen]

This ghastly dogma has five (5) very important foundations.

1. It teaches evil that has no end.

2. It points to a victorious devil.

3. It points to a God who fails as the Author & Finisher, with evil finally triumphant over God.

4. It teaches unending chaos forever and ever.

5. It is NOT afraid to call this ghastly scene the triumph of the Lord Jesus Christ

"All in all" > > > becomes all in some

The question of universalism is usually argued on a basis altogether misleading (as though the point involved was chiefly, or wholly, man’s endless suffering).

Odious and repulsive to every moral instinct, as is that dogma, it is not the turning point of this controversy.

The vital question is this, that the creed by teaching the perpetuity of evil, points to a victorious devil, and to sin as finally triumphant over God.

It makes the corrupt, yes, the bestial in our fallen nature to be eternal. It represents what is foulest and most loathsome in man, the most obstinate sin as being enduring as God Himself.

It confers the dignity of immortal life on what is morally abominable.

It teaches perpetual anarchy, and a final chaos.

It enthrones pandemonium as an eternal fact side by side with Paradise; and, gazing over its fetid and obscene abysses, is not afraid to call this the triumph of Jesus Christ, this the realization of the promise that God shall be “All in All”.

-Christ Triumphant-

 

[Der Alte]

***

More literal and honest translations state:..

This is an erroneous and misleading statement. You don't know which if any translation(s) is literal. What this statement, in fact, means is any version(s) which supports UR teaching states....

 

[ClementofA]

This is an erroneous and misleading statement. You don't know which if any translation(s) is literal. What this statement, in fact, means is any version(s) which supports UR teaching states....

All versions support UR teaching, including the self contradictory KJV:

Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf