Hades Is A Real Place of Torment and Agony

[Lazarus Short]

Do you believe that we have free will ?


.

Yes/No. The matter will not be settled this side of the veil. Did Adam and Eve exercise free will? Did God know what they were going to do? Was He really caught by surprise when they told Him they were naked?

Our POV: we have free will.

God's POV: He knows the end from the beginning and ordains all things.

It's a question too deep to look into too deeply.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Oh? Like the Early Church Father Universalists, including Origen who died of being tortured for his faith in Christ the Saviour of all?

"Moreover, he was not only a man of extraordinary personal holiness, piety, and charity, but a martyr as well: Brutally tortured during the Decian persecution at the age of sixty-six, he never recovered, but slowly withered away over a period of three years. He was, in short, among the greatest of the Church Fathers and the most illustrious of the saints, and yet, disgracefully, official church tradition—East and West—commemorates him as neither."

Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart

I actually like Origen and I respect his martyrdom but he was still a heretic though.


.

 

[ClementofA]

NOPE!

You as a Universalist MUST use the "AGES" opinion because you know that it is the only argument you have.

Only argument i have for...what? Universalism? Hardly, read this:

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

To argue against the understanding that there are souls cast into the lake of fire forever, universalists look to extra-biblical works to support their arguments against the Greek word for "eternal."

They quote such and such said this and who and who thinks this, and so on and so forth. They exhaust all their resources to refute this because, quite literally, if the word does indeed mean eternal in regards to the after life, the age to come, the case for Christian universalism evaporates before their very eyes.

However, it is wise to note that anything that is extra biblical is just that—extra biblical. As such we are not to base our doctrines upon the musings and words of uninspired men. Commentators are only useful in so much as to draw our attention to a doctrine that either is or is not represented in the Scriptures.

However, if you are not educated enough to use Greek as a vehicle for study, you must trust that God did not fail to deliver the Scriptures to you in a language that you can understand. Furthermore, the argument the universalists promote, this ages of ages, flies in the face of the Hebrew concept of time.

When taking into account the different concepts of time that Western civilization holds in comparison to the Hebrew concept of time, the rendering of the Hebrew and Greek into "for ever and ever" and the like is correct when it refers to the age to come. Anything different is scholarly pride and ambition as if to say, "Look everybody else is wrong, this should be 'ages of ages.'"

Truth is true -even if no one knows it.
Truth is true -even if no one admits it.
Truth is true -even if no one agrees what it is.
Truth is true -even if no one follows it.
Truth is true -even if no one but God grasps it fully.
The Hebrew concept of time and "aionios" and "aion"

Are you the author of those remarks, the Landstrom guy? I debated with him on CARM many years ago. He has no clue.

Also if you are going to use someone else's words in your post, you should identify them with quotation marks. Otherwise it is considered plagiarism.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Yes/No. The matter will not be settled this side of the veil. Did Adam and Eve exercise free will? Did God know what they were going to do? Was He really caught by surprise when they told Him they were naked?

Our POV: we have free will.

God's POV: He knows the end from the beginning and ordains all things.

It's a question too deep to look into too deeply.

So do you believe humans have free will to reject salvation and God ?

Please just tell me if you do or don't.

.

 

[Major1]

If the Bible didn't say it, then where does the concept come from? These all appear to be embellishments in modern popular culture.


Where does it say that they were told it was coming for 120 years? Where does it say that they saw the work being done? Where does it say Noah preached to them? I see none of this in Genesis 6-8.

Again, these are popular modern embellishments that are reflected nowhere in the Bible text.


Where did it say God closed the door?

Good grief my brother.

2 Peter 2:5...…...
" if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought B)'>a flood upon the world of the ungodly".

What do YOU think "a preacher of righteousness" means?

Genesis 6:3............
"And the Lord said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."

1 Peter 3:20...…….
"Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

Some people, myself included believe these 120 years are a countdown to the Flood. In other words, mankind’s violence had reached its peak and God declared that 120 years was the “drop dead” date for mankind who is a mortal being.

What do YOU think "strived with man for 120 years means".?

Genesis 7:16 …......

"And those that entered, male and female of all flesh, went in as God had commanded him. And the Lord shut him in."

What do you think "Shut him in means".

 

[Major1]

Only argument i have for...what? Universalism? Hardly, read this:

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers




Are you the author of those remarks, the Landstrom guy? I debated with him on CARM many years ago. He has no clue.

Also if you are going to use someone else's words in your post, you should identify them with quotation marks. Otherwise it is considered plagiarism.

Look at the very bottom of post (198) and there is
The Hebrew concept of time and "aionios" and "aion"

 

[ClementofA]

Genesis 6:3............
"And the Lord said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."

The same Hebrew word (OLAM, 5769) used for "forever" appears in Lam.3:31:

For the Lord will not cast off forever, (Lam.3:31)

32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the sons of men.…

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

NIV Genesis 6:3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years."

Many ancient translations do not say "contend with", but "abide in" or "dwell in":

"R.V. marg. rule in. Better, according to many ancient versions, abide in..."

"...Shall not dwell (LXX., οὐ μὴ καταμείνη; Vulgate, non permanebit; Syriac, Onkelos)."

Bible Hub: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages

"Genesis 6:3 compare perhaps continue, do something continually, in modern Egyptian Arabic (SoSK lxvii {1894}, 211 f.). (1) ᵐ5 ᵑ9 ᵑ6 Onk read ידיר or (Kue) ילון abide in, dwell, — My spirit will not abide in man for ever; this best suits the context, but ידור, as Aramaism, is dubious (2) Kn De Schr RVm render rule in, supported by Zechariah 3:7 only. (3) Thes Ew Di render be humbled in, sustained by Arabic usage, but not by Hebrew (4) strive with of AV RV (compare 6 above) is hardly justified."

Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon, Unabridged, Electronic Database.

Bible Hub: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages

JPS Tanakh 1917
And the LORD said: 'My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for that he also is flesh; therefore shall his days be a hundred and twenty years.'

Douay-Rheims Bible
And God said: My spirit shall not remain in man for ever, because he is flesh, and his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.

Young's Literal Translation
And Jehovah saith, 'My Spirit doth not strive in man -- to the age; in their erring they are flesh:' and his days have been an hundred and twenty years.

Concordant Literal Version
And saying is Yahweh Elohim, "Not abide shall My spirit in the human for the eon, in that moreover, he is flesh. And come shall his days to be a hundred and twenty years.

Rotherham Emphasized Bible
And Yahweh said—My spirit shall not rule in man to times age—abiding, for that, he also, is flesh,—Yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.

NET Bible
So the LORD said, "My spirit will not remain in humankind indefinitely, since they are mortal. They will remain for 120 more years."

ISV
Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not remain with human beings forever, because they are truly mortal, and their lifespan will be 120 years.

English Standard Version
Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.”

John Wycliffe's Translation
And God seide, My spirit schal not dwelle in man with outen ende, for he is fleisch; and the daies of hym schulen be an hundrid and twenti yeer.

Brenton English Septuagint Translation
And the Lord God said, My Spirit shall certainly not remain among these men for ever, because they are flesh, but their days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Charles Thompson Translation (of the LXX)
then the Lord God said, "My breath must not continue in these men to this age, because they are flesh; their days however, shall be an hundred and twenty years

Complete Apostle's Bible (of the LXX)
And the Lord God said, My Spirit shall certainly not remain among these men forever, because they are flesh, but their days shall be one hundred and twenty years.

"R.V. marg. rule in. Better, according to many ancient versions, abide in..."

And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. (Gen.12:3)

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Universalists have the same reasoning and evasion tactics of Evolutionists / Atheists that try to deny the existence of evil or that people are evil.


.

 

[JSRG]

Good grief my brother.

2 Peter 2:5...…...
" if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought B)'>a flood upon the world of the ungodly".

What do YOU think "a preacher of righteousness" means?

It would mean he encouraged people to be righteous. It doesn't mean he told them anything about the flood.

Genesis 6:3............
"And the Lord said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."

There are two standard interpretations of this. One is that it was cutting down on the lifespan of a human, dropping it down to a normal maximum of 120 (with some exceptions, obviously). This seems the more plausible interpretation to me, as we see dramatically reduced lifespans after this compared to those earlier in the Bible. The other is that God waited 120 years to send the flood, perhaps to demonstrate that even after all that time people hadn't improved. Even if we accept the latter, it says nothing of warning people of it.

1 Peter 3:20...…….
"Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

This states nothing of warning people, people trying to get on the ark, or people knowing about it.

Genesis 7:16 …......

"And those that entered, male and female of all flesh, went in as God had commanded him. And the Lord shut him in."

What do you think "Shut him in means".

That he was being protected from the flood by being in the ark.

Even if one insists it means an actual closing of the way to get into or out of the ark, this would be no different than the withdrawing of the gangplank when any ark or ship takes off.

The point is that the claim of people begging to be let into the ark is not supported by the Bible. One has to put speculations upon speculations in order to get to that point. I know the idea of Noah trying to convince people the flood was coming and people not believing him and people trying to get onto the ark when the flood was coming is a popular modern depiction, but it is without basis.

I'm not even arguing anything here about universalism; the only reason I posted at all was I glanced at the topic and saw this common misunderstanding of Noah and the ark and wanted to correct it.

 

[agapelove]

To my brothers with unshakeable faith, hold fast to the love of God! I send you these words of encouragement.

“Let no one persuade you that there is in him a little darkness, because of something he has said which his creature interprets into darkness. The interpretation is the work of the enemy—a handful of tares of darkness sown in the light. Neither let your cowardly conscience receive any word as light because another calls it light, while it looks to you dark. Say either the thing is not what it seems, or God never said or did it. But, of all evils, to misinterpret what God does, and then say the thing as interpreted must be right because God does it, is of the devil. Do not try to believe anything that affects you as darkness. Even if you mistake and refuse something true thereby, you will do less wrong to Christ by such a refusal than you would by accepting as his what you can see only as darkness.”

 

[Lazarus Short]

So do you believe humans have free will to reject salvation and God ?

Please just tell me if you do or don't.

.

They can resist for a time, but that is all. I know, I resisted for a time, but irresistible grace saved me. It may just be a mistake to reduce it to "do" or "don't" - it is probably much more complex, as are many of the things of God.

 

[FineLinen]

NOW there is something I can agree with!

Major: Without a new experience within the Living One we will never agree.

Your vast treasures of wisdom & knowledge of carm and got answers will be of zero help for you!

"THE CHRIST, THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD." (John 4:42)

Christ is the Savior of the world. The larger hope simply asserts, Christ will, in fact, save the world.

"(HE) WHICH GIVES LIFE UNTO THE WORLD" (John 6:33)

The world (cosmos) is in Scripture the ungodly mass.

It is contrasted with the inner circle of the faithful, the elect.

This world is over and over again claimed by Christ. He gives life to it, and His gifts are "without repentance."

 

[Lazarus Short]

Universalists have the same reasoning and evasion tactics of Evolutionists / Atheists that try to deny the existence of evil or that people are evil.


.

I, for one, do not deny the existence of evil or people being evil. God Himself stated that He created evil, and He even planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden. However, I also believe God uses good and evil a teaching tools, and when the lesson is fully learned, evil will be put away forever. It is the advocates of Hades/Hell that believe evil will continue forever.

Eternal conscious torment - how do you square that with Death (the last enemy) being defeated?

 

[Der Alte]

I, for one, do not deny the existence of evil or people being evil. God Himself stated that He created evil, and He even planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden. However, I also believe God uses good and evil a teaching tools, and when the lesson is fully learned, evil will be put away forever. It is the advocates of Hades/Hell that believe evil will continue forever.
Eternal conscious torment - how do you square that with Death (the last enemy) being defeated?

Revelation 21:4-8
4. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

Although God said “no more death,” vs. 4 and “I make all things new,” vs. 5, in vs. 8, eight groups of sinful people are cast into the lake of fire, which despite “no more death,” vs 4, is still “the second death.”
…..Note in vs. 7 God specifies conditions i.e. “He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.”
God does not say everyone shall inherit all things etc. The converse of that stated condition is, “He that does NOT overcome shall inherit NOT all things; and I will NOT be his God, and he shall NOT be my son.”
Salvation is not mentioned after this in Rev.

Revelation 22:11-12
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Revelation 22:15
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Revelation 22:18-19
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.​

Two more verses- The End.

 

[ClementofA]

Revelation 21:4-8
4. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

Although God said “no more death,” vs. 4 and “I make all things new,” vs. 5, in vs. 8, eight groups of sinful people are cast into the lake of fire, which despite “no more death,” vs 4, is still “the second death.”
…..Note in vs. 7 God specifies conditions i.e. “He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.”
God does not say everyone shall inherit all things etc. The converse of that stated condition is, “He that does NOT overcome shall inherit NOT all things; and I will NOT be his God, and he shall NOT be my son.”
Salvation is not mentioned after this in Rev.

Revelation 22:11-12
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Revelation 22:15
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Revelation 22:18-19
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.​

Two more verses- The End.

Rev 22:11-17
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

(17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Is your argument that those who are still unjust and still unrighteous, v.11, , “sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.” V. 15
“may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city” v. 14?

Regarding v.11...

"The meaning is, Let men continue in these various characters, if they will. I come quickly with the rewards that they will respectively deserve. A similar mode of expression is adopted in Ecclesiastes 11:9."

Revelation 22:11 -

Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

They can resist for a time, but that is all. I know, I resisted for a time, but irresistible grace saved me. It may just be a mistake to reduce it to "do" or "don't" - it is probably much more complex, as are many of the things of God.

Thank you for your answer.

Do you believe Calvinism is true ?
.
.

 

[Major1]

Major: Without a new experience within the Living One we will never agree.

Your vast treasures of wisdom & knowledge of carm and got answers will be of zero help for you!

"THE CHRIST, THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD." (John 4:42)

Christ is the Savior of the world. The larger hope simply asserts, Christ will, in fact, save the world.

"(HE) WHICH GIVES LIFE UNTO THE WORLD" (John 6:33)

The world (cosmos) is in Scripture the ungodly mass.

It is contrasted with the inner circle of the faithful, the elect.

This world is over and over again claimed by Christ. He gives life to it, and His gifts are "without repentance."

I agree completely.

Jesus Christ IS the Saviour of the world. I do not know why you would think otherwise.

But the statement does not mean that EVERYONE will be saved. What you are saying is that YOU want everyone to be saved. I want everyone to be saved.
God wants everyone to be saved. However......everyone will not be saved.

The reality of the Scriptures is that God will save ANYONE but not EVERYONE.

If you choose to believe in Universal salvation in light of all the Scriptures that deny such a teaching, you are of course free to do so my friend.

The acceptance of Universalism demands that Scripture be twisted and spun to fit ones desire of what one wants them to say.

In your comments you have repeatedly used the words "ALL" and "WHOLE WORLD".

It has been stated that God wants “all men to be saved” or that imply that Jesus came to save the “whole world”.

Without the proper CONTEXT those phrases mean nothing like what you want them to mean.

Consider the words “all,” “every,” and “whole” are used in the Bible. These words in modern English, are hyperbole.

In Mark 9:23 Jesus said that …...
“All things are possible for one who believes.”

According to your way of understanding, "ALL" believers can do anything.

Is that possible???? I for one am confident that Jesus did not mean that just because I am a believer that I could be an Olympic gold medal winner or that I can go out and win the Mr. America contest.

I have given you more than enough Scriptures to refute such a false doctrine so my conscious is clear.

 

[Major1]

I, for one, do not deny the existence of evil or people being evil. God Himself stated that He created evil, and He even planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden. However, I also believe God uses good and evil a teaching tools, and when the lesson is fully learned, evil will be put away forever. It is the advocates of Hades/Hell that believe evil will continue forever.

Eternal conscious torment - how do you square that with Death (the last enemy) being defeated?

You said...…..
" God Himself stated that He created evil, "

NOPE!

The Bible is quite clear that God is not the author of evil and insists that He is incapable of doing so.

2 Chronl. 19:7...….
"Now then let the fear of the LORD be upon you; be very careful what you do, for the LORD our God will have no part in unrighteousness or partiality or the taking of a bribe."

 

[FineLinen]

I agree completely.

Jesus Christ IS the Saviour of the world. I do not know why you would think otherwise.

But the statement does not mean that EVERYONE will be saved.

Dear Major: I know the Master of Reconciliation is the Saviour of the radical all of mankind. He is NOT a potential Saviour, He IS Saviour.

The scope of His exhaustive work results not merely with being saved, but in being "made righteous."

Far as the curse is found !

 

[FineLinen]

You said...…..
" God Himself stated that He created evil, "

NOPE!

The Bible is quite clear that God is not the author of evil and insists that He is incapable of doing so.

You can "nope" till the cows come home big guy!

“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”