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Hades Is A Real Place of Torment and Agony

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" ring any bells for you?

Satan worshippers Know Exactly what they are doing. That's the difference.

The Pharisees / Sanhedrin were actually trying to follow the law of Moses. The Romans soldiers who crucified Him were just Pagans in the army.


.
 
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Major1

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Great! So all those who wish to live in Vegas forever, gambling & whoring, He will "grant their wishes" (like a genie) & give them eternal happiness that way. So everyone gets saved! And you are now a universalist!

Is gambling a sin?

Do you think that only harlots live in Vegas???
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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Great! So all those who wish to live in Vegas forever, gambling & whoring, He will "grant their wishes" (like a genie) & give them eternal happiness that way. So everyone gets saved! And you are now a universalist!

Do you believe humans have free will ?

.
 
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Major1

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Why would He need to "force" (whatever that is supposed to mean)?

Love Omnipotent has all eternity to wait lovingly till all willingly respond positively to His love.

It's impossible any would resist Him forever.

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

You just said...…….
"It's impossible any would resist Him forever. "

With all due respect to you, have you actually studied the Bible????

Revelation 20:10...…..
"and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Are you going to tell us now that those who do go to the Lake of Fire will then because of the torment and pain then decide to accept Christ and be saved????
 
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JSRG

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3rd time......Were the people on earth standing in front of the Ark begging to get in in TORMENT?????
Where does the Bible say there were people standing in front of the Ark begging to get in?
 
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Major1

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"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" ring any bells for you?

Why would Love Omnipotent want to appear so powerfully to (and save) a Jew who was a Christian serial killer, the worst of sinners?

Why would Love Omnipotent save a man who had been made king and shown many of God's wonders and miracles, but then committed premeditated adultery and murder?

Why would Love Omnipotent save another man who for years had seen the miracles of Jesus yet refused to believe even after the disciples said they had seen the Lord risen? Yet he stubbornly refused to believe unless he see the Lord & put his hand inside of Him.

That last one sounds like a lot of atheists & agnostics who've never seen anything like what doubting Thomas did.

the penalty for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is...

WHY??????

Why did God save YOU?

You do not deserve being saved anymore than I do.

WHY does God save anyone my friend???

John 3:16....
"“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

Honestly my friend, read the book!!!
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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ClementofA

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Actually I am nothing but a born again believer in Christ who believes that the Bible is the Word of God.

"Got Questions" is actually a Christian apologetics web site. It is Protestant, evangelical, theologically conservative, and non-denominational. The CEO is educated at Dallas Theological Seminary of which I am also an attendee.

The only reason you would attack it is that it and me are diputing your unbiblical opinions.

So evidently you are not aware that it supports Calvinist doctrines such as, for example:

"Man is definitely sinful and incapable of believing in God on his own. God elects people based on His will alone – election is not based on any merit in the person chosen. All those whom God has chosen will come to faith. All those who are truly born-again will persevere in their faith.

What is Calvinism and is it biblical? What are the five points of Calvinism? | GotQuestions.org
 
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FineLinen

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You just said...…….
"It's impossible any would resist Him forever. "

With all due respect to you, have you actually studied the Bible????

It becomes painfully obvious ClementofA cannot even spell B I B L E. (lol)
 
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Major1

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Where does the Bible say there were people standing in front of the Ark begging to get in?

It doesn't, and I do not think that I said the Bible did. If I did please post the comment number for me because I am not going to go through all these posts.

It only stands to reason IMO that the population that was told about what was coming for 120 years, they saw the work being done, they heard Noah's preaching and they rejected the Grace of God.

It is common sense to me that when the water began to rise , THEN they believed what Noah said but God closed the door.

If there were not people trying to get in, then why did God close the door?
 
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Major1

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So evidently you are not aware that it supports Calvinist doctrines such as, for example:

"Man is definitely sinful and incapable of believing in God on his own. God elects people based on His will alone – election is not based on any merit in the person chosen. All those whom God has chosen will come to faith. All those who are truly born-again will persevere in their faith.

What is Calvinism and is it biblical? What are the five points of Calvinism? | GotQuestions.org

It supports Bible doctrine and if it is anything at all it would be Baptist.
 
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ClementofA

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Some people are just evil. They will never repent. They willingly choose that path.

.




XYZ said:
According to your view, when God destroyed the entire planet with a flood and spared only 8 people to start over again, that was just a temporal punishment and all of those wicked people are waiting in Hades to receive a final bath in the lake of fire for a love cleansing in order to be presented to the Father WITHOUT EVER HAVING FAITH, KNOWIMG HIM, OR HAVING TO ASK FOR FORGIVENESS. In this strange lake of fire, apparently there are classes, bibles and teachers to educate these lost souls while they are burning off their sins. I suppose Gods consumimg fire excuses and does not require these souls from ever repenting ... no it's an automatic graduation into the heavenly realm. Wow!
Remember, God was sorry he made man, He grieved because man was totally wicked to the extant that every thought was evil continuously.
Sir, you don't understand what death is, what destruction or to perish means and with that your concept of faith is apparently without value since faith is not necessary for salvation, which goes against what the entire Bible teaches about salvation. Your concept of judgment and justice makes God a gentle merciful Mr. Rogers who makes everyone his neighbor. Hence wars between angels and devils are merely pretense, all for show. Good ole Mr Satan can't really harm anyone, nor will he suffer much - he'll be transformed back into a glorified Lucifer once again, beautiful as he once was. Michael and him will be giving each other high fives when EVERYONE DEMON IS TURNED BACK INTO AN PURE HOLY ANGLE OF LIGHT.
HOW NICE.


You think Love Omnipotent of the Scriptures is like a Hitler who annihilates billions out of existence forever & infinitely for the finite momentary sins of a brief & fleeting lifetime of a few years or decades?

You think His love expires about as quickly as a carton of milk. But God is a God of infinite and unconditional love. It is far greater than the vast universe He created.

If He doesn't save all is it because He can't or doesn't want to?

Annihilating eternally does not respect human free will. Nor is it for the good of anyone, including the relatives & loved ones of those endlessly annihilated.

Three assertions are made, generally, by Christians:

God loves everyone.
God can save anyone.
God's love never ends.
Only two of the above statements can be true at the same time if we assume that there are some who will not be saved (which is to say that we are not universalists). If God loves everyone, and if God can save everyone he loves, and if God does not change his mind about his love, then everyone will be saved.

From 1-3 above it follows that

4. God didn't create anyone capable of ever becoming unsavable
5. God will continue to seek & to save the lost postmortem
6. Love Omnipotent will continue to seek & to save the lost in Hades & the LOF ("hell").
7. God didn't predestine anyone to be lost forever
8. God didn't foreknow anyone would be lost forever
9. God has made it impossible that anyone could reject Him forever
10. God will continue to seek & to save the lost till the last lost one is saved.

Love Omnipotent has all eternity to wait & keep trying to save people. And given His willingness & ability to draw men to Himself an infinite number of times through eternity, it is mathematically impossible for anyone to reject Him an infinite number of times. Each time the man has a free choice to choose or reject God there is a chance he will choose God. Given an infinite number of such chances, the odds are impossible that he will not eventually choose God. So all will be saved.

"God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."

------------------------

“He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn

“How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols

-----------------


"God did not leave anything to chance, he's not a gambler he's an investor and that investment reaps dividends every time, if it takes a fundamentalist eternity to so."

"Who is stronger? Man with his free will or God who will have all men to be saved?"

According to the Bible mercy will triumph over judgement.

Love will conquer all.

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

Proof for the Teaching of Christian, Biblical Universalism:
Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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You think Love Omnipotent of the Scriptures is like a Hitler who annihilates billions out of existence forever & infinitely for the finite momentary sins of a brief & fleeting lifetime of a few years or decades?

You think His love expires about as quickly as a carton of milk. But God is a God of infinite and unconditional love. It is far greater than the vast universe He created.

If He doesn't save all is it because He can't or doesn't want to?

Annihilating eternally does not respect human free will. Nor is it for the good of anyone, including the relatives & loved ones of those endlessly annihilated.



From 1-3 above it follows that

4. God didn't create anyone capable of ever becoming unsavable
5. God will continue to seek & to save the lost postmortem
6. Love Omnipotent will continue to seek & to save the lost in Hades & the LOF ("hell").
7. God didn't predestine anyone to be lost forever
8. God didn't foreknow anyone would be lost forever
9. God has made it impossible that anyone could reject Him forever
10. God will continue to seek & to save the lost till the last lost one is saved.

Love Omnipotent has all eternity to wait & keep trying to save people. And given His willingness & ability to draw men to Himself an infinite number of times through eternity, it is mathematically impossible for anyone to reject Him an infinite number of times. Each time the man has a free choice to choose or reject God there is a chance he will choose God. Given an infinite number of such chances, the odds are impossible that he will not eventually choose God. So all will be saved.

"God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."

------------------------

“He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn

“How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols

-----------------


"God did not leave anything to chance, he's not a gambler he's an investor and that investment reaps dividends every time, if it takes a fundamentalist eternity to so."

"Who is stronger? Man with his free will or God who will have all men to be saved?"

According to the Bible mercy will triumph over judgement.

Love will conquer all.

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

Proof for the Teaching of Christian, Biblical Universalism:
Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Some people are just "Willingly" evil.


.
 
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ClementofA

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Revelation 20:10...….
"and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."



More accurate, literal & honest translations say:

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)

And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Rev.20:10, Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983)

...and the Adversary that had been deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [were] both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented
day and night unto the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10, Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959

American Standard Version footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
Revised Version, 1881 footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.

Does ages of the ages have an end? Christ's reign is "to the ages of the ages":

And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign to the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15, YLT)

But His reign is "until" He gives up the Kingdom to the Father:

24 Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. (1 Corinthians 15)

So Christ's reign "to the ages of the ages" is not "forever and ever". Therefore the phrase "to the ages of the ages" can be understood of a limited time period that comes to an end. So those in the lake of fire are not punished there "for ever and ever" (Rev.20:10).

Also, "forever and ever" is nonsense. No time can be added to "forever".

When Christ's reign ends (1 Cor.15 above), this will lead to God being "All in all" (v.28). IOW everyone will be saved, as all will be "in Christ" (v.22).

12 points re forever and ever being finite:
For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
 
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ClementofA

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WHY??????

Why did God save YOU?

You do not deserve being saved anymore than I do.

WHY does God save anyone my friend???

John 3:16....
"“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

Honestly my friend, read the book!!!

Evidently you missed the point of my post to someone not named Major1.

As for the misleading John 3:16 version you posted:

For God so loved the world that He gave the only begotten Son, so that everyone believing in Him should not perish, but should have eonian (aionion) life. (Jn. 3:16).

In John 3:16 there is no question that those who are believing - shall - not perish. Even though the subjunctive "should" is used. For it is used with the hina (so that) indicating purpose or result.

Likewise, in the very next verse, Jn.3:17, the hina occurs again with subjunctive, just as it does in John 3:16:

For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)

There we see God's reason in sending His Son, namely to save the world. That was the Diivine will of God, Who is Love Omnipotent. And notice what BDAG says about the "divine will":

“In many cases purpose and result cannot be clearly differentiated, and hence ἵνα is used for the result that follows according to the purpose of the subj. or of God. As in Semitic and Gr-Rom. thought, purpose and result are identical in declarations of the divine will…” Перевод ἵνα с греческого на все языки

More literal versions of John 3:16 say:

16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian. (CLV)

16 for God did so love the world, that His Son—the only begotten—He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. (YLT)

16 For God, so loved, the world, that, his Only Begotten Son, he gave,—that, whosoever believeth on him, might not perish, but have life age-abiding. (Ro)

16 Thus for loved the God the world, so that the son of himself the only-begotten he gave, that every one who believing into him, not may be destroyed, but may have life age-lasting. (Diaglott)

Perish for how long & in what way? The same Greek word for "perish" is used of the prodigal son who was "lost" but later found. He was ruined, not annihilated.

Not everyone will get EONIAN life, which pro Endless Hell club, anti universalist, versions mistranslate as "eternal life". Those who believe before they die get EONIAN life. They will live & reign with Christ for the 1000 years of the millennial EON (Rev.20). Unbelievers will not. They go to "hell" until they repent & are saved, since God becomes "all in ALL" (1 Cor.15:22-28). For Jesus is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29), "the Saviour of the world" (John 4:42), Who will draw all to Himself (John 12:32).

John 3:16 says unbelievers "perish", not that they perish endlessly. If Jesus had wanted to say "perish endlessly" there was a Greek word for "endless" He could have used (aperantos, 1 Tim.1:4). He could have also used the words "no end" (Lk.1:33) of perishing. Clearly endless punishment is not the teaching of the Word of God.

"While we are on the topic, however, I might mention that, alongside various, often seemingly contradictory images of eschatological punishment, the New Testament also contains a large number of seemingly explicit statements of universal salvation, excluding no one (for instance, John 3:17; 12:32, 47; Romans 5:18-19; 11:32; 1 Corinthians 15:22; 2 Corinthians 5:14, 19; Philippians 2:9-11; 1 Timothy 2:3-6;4:10; Titus 2:11; Hebrews 2:9; 2 Peter 3:9; Colossians 1:19-20; 1 John 2:2 … to mention only some of the most striking). To me it is surpassingly strange that, down the centuries, most Christians have come to believe that the former class of claims—all of which are metaphorical, pictorial, vague, and elliptical in form—must be regarded as providing the “literal” content of the New Testament’s teaching, while the latter—which are invariably straightforward doctrinal statements—must be regarded as mere hyperbole. It is one of the great mysteries of Christian history (or perhaps of a certain kind of religious psychopathology)."

Anent Garry Wills and the “DBH” Version
 
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ClementofA

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Universalism is for people who don't want to repent from their sins or take responsibility and be held accountable for their actions.

And they don't want anyone else to either.

.

Oh? Like the Early Church Father Universalists, including Origen who died of being tortured for his faith in Christ the Saviour of all?

"Moreover, he was not only a man of extraordinary personal holiness, piety, and charity, but a martyr as well: Brutally tortured during the Decian persecution at the age of sixty-six, he never recovered, but slowly withered away over a period of three years. He was, in short, among the greatest of the Church Fathers and the most illustrious of the saints, and yet, disgracefully, official church tradition—East and West—commemorates him as neither."

Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart
 
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Major1

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More accurate, literal & honest translations say:

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)

And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Rev.20:10, Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983)

...and the Adversary that had been deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [were] both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented
day and night unto the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10, Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959

American Standard Version footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
Revised Version, 1881 footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.

Does ages of the ages have an end? Christ's reign is "to the ages of the ages":

And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign to the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15, YLT)

But His reign is "until" He gives up the Kingdom to the Father:

24 Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. (1 Corinthians 15)

So Christ's reign "to the ages of the ages" is not "forever and ever". Therefore the phrase "to the ages of the ages" can be understood of a limited time period that comes to an end. So those in the lake of fire are not punished there "for ever and ever" (Rev.20:10).

Also, "forever and ever" is nonsense. No time can be added to "forever".

When Christ's reign ends (1 Cor.15 above), this will lead to God being "All in all" (v.28). IOW everyone will be saved, as all will be "in Christ" (v.22).

12 points re forever and ever being finite:
For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

NOPE!

You as a Universalist MUST use the "AGES" opinion because you know that it is the only argument you have.

To argue against the understanding that there are souls cast into the lake of fire forever, universalists look to extra-biblical works to support their arguments against the Greek word for "eternal."

They quote such and such said this and who and who thinks this, and so on and so forth. They exhaust all their resources to refute this because, quite literally, if the word does indeed mean eternal in regards to the after life, the age to come, the case for Christian universalism evaporates before their very eyes.

However, it is wise to note that anything that is extra biblical is just that—extra biblical. As such we are not to base our doctrines upon the musings and words of uninspired men. Commentators are only useful in so much as to draw our attention to a doctrine that either is or is not represented in the Scriptures.

However, if you are not educated enough to use Greek as a vehicle for study, you must trust that God did not fail to deliver the Scriptures to you in a language that you can understand. Furthermore, the argument the universalists promote, this ages of ages, flies in the face of the Hebrew concept of time.

When taking into account the different concepts of time that Western civilization holds in comparison to the Hebrew concept of time, the rendering of the Hebrew and Greek into "for ever and ever" and the like is correct when it refers to the age to come. Anything different is scholarly pride and ambition as if to say, "Look everybody else is wrong, this should be 'ages of ages.'"

Truth is true -even if no one knows it.
Truth is true -even if no one admits it.
Truth is true -even if no one agrees what it is.
Truth is true -even if no one follows it.
Truth is true -even if no one but God grasps it fully.
The Hebrew concept of time and "aionios" and "aion"
 
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JSRG

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It doesn't, and I do not think that I said the Bible did. If I did please post the comment number for me because I am not going to go through all these posts.
If the Bible didn't say it, then where does the concept come from? These all appear to be embellishments in modern popular culture.

It only stands to reason IMO that the population that was told about what was coming for 120 years, they saw the work being done, they heard Noah's preaching and they rejected the Grace of God.

It is common sense to me that when the water began to rise , THEN they believed what Noah said but God closed the door.
Where does it say that they were told it was coming for 120 years? Where does it say that they saw the work being done? Where does it say Noah preached to them? I see none of this in Genesis 6-8.

Again, these are popular modern embellishments that are reflected nowhere in the Bible text as far as I can tell.

If there were not people trying to get in, then why did God close the door?
Where did it say God closed the door?
 
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ClementofA

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It supports Bible doctrine and if it is anything at all it would be Baptist.

There are plenty of Baptists who are Calvinists & i already showed you they support Calvinist doctrines. So your accusation was false.
 
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