If endless punishment were true & victims of infanticide all go to heaven

[ClementofA]

"Another makeshift theory is the theory of salvation by INNOCENCE. Most Christians today, including the so-called "Fundamentalists" who claim to believe the whole unadulterated Word of God, believe this lie. They tell us that a baby that dies in infancy, or a small child that dies before reaching the "age of accountability," whatever that is, is alright, automatically covered by the blood of Jesus-SAVED! This evidently becomes a SECOND WAY to salvation, since it is apart from FAITH in Jesus Christ. "Oh," they glibly recite, "the little child is INNOCENT, and therefore free from the guilt of any sin." Is that so! The Scripture says otherwise. "Behold, I was shaped in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Ps. 51:5). In this verse David was not attempting to prove that his mother was having an adulterous affair at the time of his conception, but states the true inner condition of his own nature from his mother's womb. Again, "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon ALL MEN, for that ALL HAVE SINNED" (Rom. 5:12). "For ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23). "For God has concluded them ALL in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all" (Rom. 11:32)."

"If even one infant is saved without personally believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, then there IS INDEED A-N-O-T-H-E-R W-A-Y! "He that believes shall be saved" is the unceasing and unalterable testimony of God's Word. Some of the basic ingredients in salvation are repentance, faith, and confession. No infant can do any of these things! "Ah," you say, then you believe that all the little babies that have died are burning in hell!" What I am saying is what the Bible says, that all men are BORN SINNERS, and that faith in Jesus Christ is the ONLY WAY OF SALVATION. "As many as RECEIVED HIM, to THEM gave He authority to become the children of God, even to them that BELIEVE on His name" (Jn. 1: 12). The child who dies goes into the loving hands of God who watches over the souls of all men, who is the Saviour of all, and who deals with all out of His heart of infinite love, drawing each in the perfect timing ordained by His wisdom and omniscience. WE CAN TRUST HIM WITH THE FATE AND DESTINY OF OUR LITTLE ONES, for the Judge of all the earth shall DO RIGHT, but He does not cancel His redemptive process for any offspring of Adam, all must come the same route, the infant included."

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

 

[Sam81]

I will not kill babies because it's not God's will for me to kill babies. The Bible teaches us to raise our children in the fear of the Lord. It's none of my business how the Lord judges babies. It's my business to live for God and preach the gospel.

Apparently, it's your business to involve yourself in God's business, and to teach lies.

 

[ClementofA]

It's none of my business how the Lord judges babies.

Do you have Scripture to support that notion?

So, unlike many other Christians, you don't think Scripture addresses the issue or has anything to say about it, eh?

 

[ClementofA]

According to one source Augustine believed re the pains of endless hell that those "of children dying unbaptized will be 'most mild of all'; but for all the chastisement will be eternal" (Early Christian Doctrines, J.N.D. Kelly, p.485).

Full text of "103911481-J-N-D-Kelly-Early-Christian-Doctrines.pdf (PDFy mirror)"

Another source states:

"16. In countering Pelagius, Augustine was led to state that infants who die without Baptism are consigned to hell.[24] "

The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die Without Being Baptised

 

[Sam81]

Do you have Scripture to support that notion?

So, unlike many other Christians, you don't think Scripture addresses the issue or has anything to say about it, eh?

You are conjuring up scenarios that Christians shouldn't be concerning themselves with in an effort to support your false doctrine. Get saved, repent of your heresy and sin, or you're going to go to hell. Period.

The sole focus of a Christian should be holiness, and preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The New Testament clearly warns us of people like you who pervert and distract, bringing damnable heresies.

 

[zelosravioli]

You are conjuring up scenarios that Christians shouldn't be concerning themselves with in an effort to support your false doctrine. Get saved, repent of your heresy and sin, or you're going to go to hell. Period. The sole focus of a Christian should be holiness, and preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The New Testament clearly warns us of people like you who pervert and distract, bringing damnable heresies.

Sam81, this is no doubt a debate forum, or at least you can expect to have reasonable questions asked - like them or not - debated and argued over - albeit hopefully in a diplomatic way, with reasonable answers. I think the OP is abit too suggestive, and a bit over the top, but the point of the OP raises a 'valid' question.

The question of 'eternal torment' (aionios kolasis; eternal punishment) is a valid question, and anyone 'seriously' involved with 'evangelism' would be very familiar with this since this is probably one of the most common objections to scripture (or Christianity).

I see Clement is a Universalist, and I would dogmatically disagree with Universalists, BUT the 'traditional' idea of humans being punished for eternity 'needs' to be addressed by the Church, not avoided because they cant 'talk' about it (?). And not like SAM81 does here, including practically cursing Clement, and which is really just dodging the whole point.

I am a Conditionalist - I believe God will judge everyone fairly, and those who really should be punished, will be punished justly, fairly, and only for what their crime demands (God speaks of death, but His Law does have different punishments for different crimes). Then they, like those who willingly knowingly reject Gods Holiness and sacrifice, will experience the second death - which is eternal 'death' (death is the eternal punishment for sin, just as promised in Genesis 2:17. Just as final destruction of the person, is spoken of over 100 times in scripture)... your thoughts..

 

[Sam81]

Sam81, this is no doubt a debate forum, or at least you can expect to have reasonable questions asked - like them or not - debated and argued over - albeit hopefully in a diplomatic way, with reasonable answers. I think the OP is abit too suggestive, and a bit over the top, but the point of the OP raises a 'valid' question.

The question of 'eternal torment' (aionios kolasis; eternal punishment) is a valid question, and anyone 'seriously' involved with 'evangelism' would be very familiar with this since this is probably one of the most common objections to scripture (or Christianity).

I see Clement is a Universalist, and I would dogmatically disagree with Universalists, BUT the 'traditional' idea of humans being punished for eternity 'needs' to be addressed by the Church, not avoided because they cant 'talk' about it (?). And not like SAM81 does here, including practically cursing Clement, and which is really just dodging the whole point.

I am a Conditionalist - I believe God will judge everyone fairly, and those who really should be punished, will be punished justly, fairly, and only for what their crime demands (God speaks of death, but His Law does have different punishments for different crimes). Then they, like those who willingly knowingly reject Gods Holiness and sacrifice, will experience the second death - which is eternal 'death' (death is the eternal punishment for sin, just as promised in Genesis 2:17. Just as final destruction of the person, is spoken of over 100 times in scripture)... your thoughts..

I think you need to get saved.

 

[zelosravioli]

I think you need to get saved.

Well, since you seem to have finished all your studies, enlighten me, how many verses support 'eternal burning' of unsaved persons, and how many verses speak of the 'complete destruction' of the unsaved persons?

 

[ClementofA]

I see Clement is a Universalist,

You see correctly.

and I would dogmatically disagree with Universalists, BUT the 'traditional' idea of humans being punished for eternity 'needs' to be addressed by the Church, not avoided because they cant 'talk' about it (?).

I would add universalism in the conversation:

Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

I am a Conditionalist - I believe God will judge everyone fairly, and those who really should be punished, will be punished justly, fairly, and only for what their crime demands (God speaks of death, but His Law does have different punishments for different crimes).

In a sense Love Omnipotent doesn't owe anyone even this temporary mortal life, let alone endless ages with Him. In another sense since His word promises "life" to all (Rom.5:18-19, 1 Cor.15:22-28, etc), the Saviour of all Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29; 4:42, etc) does owe life to all if His promises mean anything. Clearly He desires to save all (1 Tim.2:4-6) & that was spoken long after Pharoah & Judas had apparently died in their sins.

Also where is the "justice" in tormenting beings (Rev.14:11; 20:10; etc) already doomed before doing the endless Hitler job on them? That's sadism, not the Divine Love that dies a horrible death on a cross for all. If it is not to correct those beings created by their Father, then it is pointless & cruel.

Then they, like those who willingly knowingly reject Gods Holiness and sacrifice, will experience the second death - which is eternal 'death' (death is the eternal punishment for sin, just as promised in Genesis 2:17. Just as final destruction of the person, is spoken of over 100 times in scripture)... your thoughts..

In Scripture i see no mention anywhere of the phrase "eternal death" or its equivalent. Quite the opposite; death is to abolished (1 Cor.15:26) & God become "all in ALL" (v.28), all being those who were "in Adam" (v.22).

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

As regards Gen.2:17 & the idea that death there is the "eternal punishment for sin", is it your viewpoint that Adam & Eve are already endlessly annihilated (are in an eternal "soul sleep") & will not be raised from the dead to be judged?

 

[Albion]

Do you have Scripture to support that notion?

So, unlike many other Christians, you don't think Scripture addresses the issue or has anything to say about it, eh?

That's right. The Bible does not exist in order to explain every last thing that the mind of man can think up. It exists in order that we will know what God intends for us to know.

Personally, I think it would be quite presumptuous of me, for example, to think that we even are capable with our Earthly intelligence to comprehend all things relating to the afterlife, the nature of God, eternity, and so on.

In the case of babies who die before baptism, the church itself has never had a firm belief about their prospects for salvation, either, and there is good reason to simply leave this to God's wisdom.

 

[ClementofA]

That's right. The Bible does not exist in order to explain every last thing that the mind of man can think up. It exists in order that we will know what God intends for us to know.

Personally, I think it would be quite presumptuous of me, for example, to think that we even are capable with our Earthly intelligence to comprehend all things relating to the afterlife, the nature of God, eternity, and so on.

I asssume that i can agree with all you've said there.

In the case of babies who die before baptism, the church itself has never had a firm belief about their prospects for salvation, either, and there is good reason to simply leave this to God's wisdom.

I feel quite comfortable in saying that millions of aborted babies have not been assigned to Augustine's endless torments in hell from the moment of their being murdered. Similarly i cannot see them having been annihilated forever. And Scripture does speak of the necessity of being born again before entering the Kingdom of God. So that rather clearly rules out them being immediately forced into heaven for all etenity without being given a choice. From all that it follows that there is after death salvation to the unsaved.

 

[Der Alte]

... Then they, like those who willingly knowingly reject Gods Holiness and sacrifice, will experience the second death - which is eternal 'death' (death is the eternal punishment for sin, just as promised in Genesis 2:17. Just as final destruction of the person, is spoken of over 100 times in scripture)... your thoughts..

I disagree. I just did an online search and can't find 100 or more verses which speak of final destruction.

 

[Albion]

I don't really get the "forced into heaven" part, though.

By definition, heaven is the place we would all want to go to. We may not know exactly what it's like, or even generally so, but it's to be with God and happy...or else the Bible isn't to be trusted.

We still agree that God is the one who knows all about this, but I don't think we can stipulate that it would be wrong of God to take these little ones into his own arms without them "being given a choice."

 

[zelosravioli]

As regards Gen.2:17 & the idea that death there is the "eternal punishment for sin", is it your viewpoint that Adam & Eve are already endlessly annihilated (are in an eternal "soul sleep") & will not be raised from the dead to be judged?

Thanks for responding, I only have a moment here, but I believe those who die go to paradise, or as Jesus says 'Abrahams' bosom. He is the God of the living, but scripture also speaks of the dead as dead, so I understand that to mean dead from our side or viewpoint (but as conscious souls). In other words; no I do not believe in soul sleep as SeventhdayAdventists believe. As well I believe in a final Judgemnt Day in the future, and then some of the unrepentant and willfully disobedient will suffer a just sentence in hell before their annihilation, or destruction.

 

[Albion]

Thanks for responding, I only have a moment here, but I believe those who die go to paradise, or as Jesus says 'Abrahams' bosom.

Are you thinking of Abraham's Bosom as being something like Limbo, then?

 

[zelosravioli]

I disagree. I just did an online search and can't find 100 or more verses which speak of final destruction.

Not only word search destruction, destroy, and death, but 'blot out' 'remember no more', 'cut off' 'wiped out'.. etc..

 

[zelosravioli]

Are you thinking of Abraham's Bosom as being something like Limbo, then?

No, I believe in a conscious joy and existence with Jesus in paradise for believers immediately after death, other than that not too much is said, other than what Jesus said on cross (maybe Jesus changed Abrahams bosom by going there?). Then a judgment of works, then a new body.. etc..

 

[Albion]

No, I believe in a conscious joy and existence with Jesus in paradise for believers immediately after death, other than that not too much is said, other than what Jesus said on cross (maybe Jesus changed Abrahams bosom by going there?). Then a judgment of works, then a new body.. etc..

Wouldn't Jesus be in heaven as Scripture says?

 

[ClementofA]

I don't really get the "forced into heaven" part, though.

By definition, heaven is the place we would all want to go to. We may not know exactly what it's like, or even generally so, but it's to be with God and happy...or else the Bible isn't to be trusted.

We still agree that God is the one who knows all about this, but I don't think we can stipulate that it would be wrong of God to take these little ones into his own arms without them "being given a choice."

Presumably these murdered aborted babies, being unregenerate, have a fallen nature. So, like others who have died, like children & teens that never heard the gospel, or Satan, would they even be happy in heaven? Assuming they would be allowed in His kingdom in the first place, which evidently they are not (John 3:1-8).

If it's not wrong of Love Omnipotent to force unregenerate babies into heaven without their "being given a choice", then why not take the next logical step & force everyone in? After all, if it's as you say, "By definition, heaven is the place we would all want to go to."

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

 

[Albion]

If it's not wrong of Love Omnipotent to force unregenerate babies into heaven without their "being given a choice", then why not take the next logical step & force everyone in? After all, if it's as you say, "By definition, heaven is the place we would all want to go to."

Obviously, people who are sinners, not redeemed, non-believers, etc. have had their lives and did not pass muster. But none of that can be said of unborn children who are murdered.

The only way to place any blame on them would be thanks to the traditional belief in Original Sin. But Christianity in general has long doubted that God could be that cruel, which is why this is such a difficult issue.