God has to be sovereign or else there is no God.

[GodsGrace101]

Haven't had a chance to read all the comments but my understanding is that God causes all good whilst simultaneously allowing evil (which is anything against His holy and perfect will) to exist. Evil is allowed to exist - although it contravenes His will - for a time and in limited scope till Christ returns and then evil will end and righteousness will reign forever in "a new heaven and a new earth".

In terms of God's sovereignty, it is clearly taught in Scripture, yet it clearly does not imply that God can and will do anything and everything.

Scripture teaches that:
1. God Cannot Lie.
"In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began..."
Titus 1:2 (King James Version)

2. God Cannot Deny Himself.
“If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.”
2 Timothy 2:13 (King James Version)

From memory, there is a third thing that God cannot do but I don’t have time ATM to look it up.

Blessings…Consolation
“The future is something which everyone reaches at the rate of sixty minutes an hour, whatever he does, whoever he is.”
— C.S. Lewis “The Screwtape Letters” (1942)

God cannot change?
He's immutable.

 

[martymonster]

Well that's what the church teaches anyway. That Satan cannot tempt us without permission from God. I still need to work on my theology but what God has shown me so far seems to be solid.

Freewill is a questionable thing. I mean take the stories of Abraham, Noah, moses...etc. Did they really have free will? Whag about bvb the prophets. It's strange how pre and after salvation everyone does and did everything that God wanted them to do. If even one person disobeyed God we wouldnt have the Bible, we wouldnt have had salvation and one of Gods sheep could potentially be lost. I mean... think about it. God calls his sheep eternally saved in MANY parts of scripture OT and New. How can that happen without Gods perfect sovereignty? It would be impossible.

Its like... the only explanation. Because everyone who lived in Noah's time was against God and wickedly evil but yet all of a sudden there's ONE Godly family left? Please! What are the chances of that? And what are the chances that that family would PERFECTLY obey God to the tee out of their own free will?

Either slaves to sin, or slaves to righteousness ...there's not a lot of freewill in that statement.

 

[martymonster]

Um....NO he isn't! Well you didn't support ANY evidence to support your position so I think I'll pass too. Maybe you can take my word for it?

Since when do people care about evidence? You can present them with all the evidence in the world, and if it doesn't support their church doctrines, they'll just ignore it. Anyway, here's a verse for you.

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

 

[martymonster]

So, God ordains baby rape and it's for a "greater purpose of good?"

What about the murder of his son? He seems to have had a hand in that.

 

[Oseas]

You hear it all the time. People claim that God didnt ordain or allow this negative relationship or marriage or car accident or insert X problem and "negative" thing here. But the truth of the matter is? There are a LOT of "negative" things that God ordained and planned for in not just your life, but in the lives of EVERYONE who has ever walked this planet or ever will. Whether it's being in an abusive marriage to choosing to give to a charity God planned for and ordained ALL ot it and everything that comes to pass in all of our lives. Like it or not, God is completely in control of not even our lives but everything that happens and everything that is alive. Ever notice the four seasons usually come at just the right time every year? Even the weather obeys Gods perfect will. Or the planets happen to revolve around the sun perfectly? That didnt happen just out of nothing. Or how each and every cell and molecular thing move perfectly according to Gods sovereignty and will? Even Satan who rebelled and turned against God forever needs permission from God before he can do a single action.

If you believe God isn't sovereign or completely in control of all things than you're basically an athiest. Because without his sovereignty and power there can be no God and atheists finally have indisputable proof that God doesnt exist. Why? Well for one the Bible says that God is ALL powerful and his kingdom rules over ALL (Psalm 103:19), the Bible says that God is in control of ALL things (Psalm 135:6) that God controls the steps of man as well and that man does it (Proverbs 16:9), and that each and every day, step, and action of our lives were planned out by God (Psalm 115:3, & Psalm 139:16). If the Bible lies or is contradictory than God ddnt write it and they're just writings of plain old men.


For God to make a mistake or to not have control over the lives of everything that exists would completely remove his power and sovereignty and that would mean that not only does he not exist but that atheism is correct and there is no God. For God to exist he has to rule over ALL because hes the ruler and creator of ALL things. Why else is it mans natural instinct to worship something? Whether Its TV, Justin Beiber or the latest signing craze, Donald Trump, or *insert X Idol here*. ANYTHING can become an idol if you spend more time with it than God or love it more than God.

It is coded into our DNA to serve God. Like it or not, Christian's are given eternal life to serve and have a personal relationship with God. Do you honestly think that we can be given sinless bodies to never worship or serve God? No! Because not serving God is sin! The bible is chuc full of this from prophet to apostle. The reason we exist and the why of why we're here is to worship and serve God! We serve God to earn his praise in the next life and the next life will involve bowing down to to and doing everything that God commands us to do while having a personal relationship with him! But that doesnt excuse the fact that we will serve and worship the almighty and all powerful creator that created us from the beginning for the sole purpose to not only serve him and do his will but to also have an eternal relationship with him. Forever!

Idc what you say, God is control of EVERYTHING and he NEVER makes a mistake. If something "bad" is in your life it's because God put it there for a greater purpose of good. You may not see it now, but you will.

Your testimony about the Person of God you bring to this topic is false and even diabolical. To speak of God, it is necessary first of all to know God. How could you give a true testimony of anyone you do not know? See, you believe that there is one God? you do well. The devils also believe, and tremble-James 2:v.19 and 2Cor.11:v.13-15-, so where is your advantage if your belief compares to the belief of the demons? None.

Furthermore, remember: JESUS left very clear, saying: All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him-Matt.11:v.27. Again to speak of God, it is necessary first of all to know God, but this is possible and it occurs only and only to whom JESUS comes to reveal Him.

JESUS said: For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath, take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. Matt.25:v.28-29

 

[Hawkins]

Freewill in the end means a creature is granted the ability to reject God. If you cannot choose to reject God, you have no freewill. If you can choose to reject God, then you are granted with the freewill. It's almost mathematical (about statistics and probabilities).

Judgment is a process to identify those with God and those not with God. A creature with freewill thus either turns out to be with God (as a result of accepting God and accepted by God, more or less like a marriage between man and woman, both have the will to live with each other in an eternity). or turns out not to be with God (as a result of rejecting God or rejected by God, again more or less resembles a divorce of marriage).

A set of Law which is applicable to both angels and humans is supposed to be used in the Final Judgment to decide who (which creature) can live with God in an eternity (which we call Heaven). The expected outcome is (mathematical probabilities), 2/3 angels will pass the judgment by the degree of freewill given to angels, and with less than 1/3 humans will pass by the degree of freewill given to humans (it is thus a narrow gate).

Satan tried to screw this up by tempting the first lineage of humans, Adam and Eve, to sin such that whoever sinned inside the dwelling place of God will have to be kicked out of the current Kingdom of Heaven. Satan's calculation is, once the first lineage of humans are kicked out of God's realm, Satan is in control of the rest. Not a single human can escape Satan's influence to pass the judgment of Law (which is used on angels) to enter the future and final Heaven to live with God eternally.

On earth (a place outside of God's realm where Satan is called the god of this world in terms of his influence) Satan is trying his best to keep each and every single human under his captivity such that no one (not a single human) can make it to pass the final judgment to be deemed righteous to enter Heaven. He successfully made it so.

So with Satan's effort (by his freewill), God's plan is altered. By the same judgment of Law, it remains the same that 2/3 angels will pass but 0 humans can pass versus the less than 1/3 as planned (a mathematical expected outcome by the degree of freewill granted). In this case, God is defeated as reality doesn't go as God planned (mathematically in logic). Satan expected a win in this case.

Now with Jesus as a justification (God's plan B), lawfully humans don't need to be judged by the same Law as used on the angels. Humans now are judged by covenants instead of Law (the set applicable to both angels and humans). God thus retains the mathematical expected outcome that less than 1/3 humans will be brought to Heaven. In this case, God has the win while Satan is lost due to the miscalculation on the factor that human salvation can go through Jesus by the justification He actively chose to make with His crucifixion on the cross.

So with Jesus' effort (by His freewill), God's plan is not altered. By the judgment of Covenant, less than 1/3 humans will be saved along with the 2/3 angels, as planned (mathematically).

Another misunderstanding is that, as an analogy, earth is a filter securing the cleanness of an aquarium Heaven. Heaven is the aquarium with earth as its filter. However a lot of us have assumed that earth is the aquarium thus question why so much evil exist on earth. The contrary is, earth is a filter thus everything dirty will show up here, such that evil will be exposed and destroyed once and for all through the lawful/legal process of Final Judgment, such that a clean Heaven can be achieved.

It means, in terms of sovereignty, everything is under God's control, in the past, right now and in future.

 

[Radagast]

Freewill in the end means a creature is granted the ability to reject God. If you cannot choose to reject God, you have no freewill.

It depends on what definition of "free will" you are using. There's more than one.

 

[Hawkins]

It depends on what definition of "free will" you are using. There's more than one.

The one defined by God, as speculated by me. It's explained in great details in my post above.

 

[messianist]

Any man who has experienced the power of elohim calling knows for a fact that he can't reject it, beeing called out of darkness into light is such a powerful experience.

 

[Radagast]

The one defined by God, as speculated by me.

There is no definition of "free will" in the Bible, and you're not God.

There are, however, tens of thousands of pages of writing by Christian scholars on the topic.

 

[Hawkins]

There is no definition of "free will" in the Bible, and you're not God.

There are, however, tens of thousands of pages of writing by Christian scholars on the topic.

I can logically speculate what free will means. The logic is presented. You are not God to defile logic itself.

From the beginning of your reply you showed only assertion without any valid argument. That remains your pride as what you said is more like "you are wrong, or you could be wrong" without pointing out any flaw logically. While what I presented in my post is logical arguments co-related one after the other.

 

[K Watt]

Any man who has experienced the power of elohim calling knows for a fact that he can't reject it, beeing called out of darkness into light is such a powerful experience.

That's not consistent with scripture.

2 Peter 2:20
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

 

[K Watt]

Freewill in the end means a creature is granted the ability to reject God. If you cannot choose to reject God, you have no freewill. If you can choose to reject God, then you are granted with the freewill. It's almost mathematical (about statistics and probabilities).

Judgment is a process to identify those with God and those not with God. A creature with freewill thus either turns out to be with God (as a result of accepting God and accepted by God, more or less like a marriage between man and woman, both have the will to live with each other in an eternity). or turns out not to be with God (as a result of rejecting God or rejected by God, again more or less resembles a divorce of marriage).

A set of Law which is applicable to both angels and humans is supposed to be used in the Final Judgment to decide who (which creature) can live with God in an eternity (which we call Heaven). The expected outcome is (mathematical probabilities), 2/3 angels will pass the judgment by the degree of freewill given to angels, and with less than 1/3 humans will pass by the degree of freewill given to humans (it is thus a narrow gate).

Satan tried to screw this up by tempting the first lineage of humans, Adam and Eve, to sin such that whoever sinned inside the dwelling place of God will have to be kicked out of the current Kingdom of Heaven. Satan's calculation is, once the first lineage of humans are kicked out of God's realm, Satan is in control of the rest. Not a single human can escape Satan's influence to pass the judgment of Law (which is used on angels) to enter the future and final Heaven to live with God eternally.

On earth (a place outside of God's realm where Satan is called the god of this world in terms of his influence) Satan is trying his best to keep each and every single human under his captivity such that no one (not a single human) can make it to pass the final judgment to be deemed righteous to enter Heaven. He successfully made it so.

So with Satan's effort (by his freewill), God's plan is altered. By the same judgment of Law, it remains the same that 2/3 angels will pass but 0 humans can pass versus the less than 1/3 as planned (a mathematical expected outcome by the degree of freewill granted). In this case, God is defeated as reality doesn't go as God planned (mathematically in logic). Satan expected a win in this case.

Now with Jesus as a justification (God's plan B), lawfully humans don't need to be judged by the same Law as used on the angels. Humans now are judged by covenants instead of Law (the set applicable to both angels and humans). God thus retains the mathematical expected outcome that less than 1/3 humans will be brought to Heaven. In this case, God has the win while Satan is lost due to the miscalculation on the factor that human salvation can go through Jesus by the justification He actively chose to make with His crucifixion on the cross.

So with Jesus' effort (by His freewill), God's plan is not altered. By the judgment of Covenant, less than 1/3 humans will be saved along with the 2/3 angels, as planned (mathematically).

Another misunderstanding is that, as an analogy, earth is a filter securing the cleanness of an aquarium Heaven. Heaven is the aquarium with earth as its filter. However a lot of us have assumed that earth is the aquarium thus question why so much evil exist on earth. The contrary is, earth is a filter thus everything dirty will show up here, such that evil will be exposed and destroyed once and for all through the lawful/legal process of Final Judgment, such that a clean Heaven can be achieved.

It means, in terms of sovereignty, everything is under God's control, in the past, right now and in future.

Do you agree that God granted us the power to accept or reject his grace?

 

[Hawkins]

Do you agree that God granted us the power to accept or reject his grace?

Well, that depends on what grace you are talking about. In a sense, even David ever rejected God's grace by sinning against Him.

"Everyone is invited" by grace in my opinion. The end result however is, some are chosen (in terms of God's sovereignty), some rebel (and with their rebelliousness accepted by God). If grace in this case cannot be rejected, then it becomes "some are invited, as they are chosen".

 

[K Watt]

Well, that depends on what grace you are talking about. In a sense, even David ever rejected God's grace by sinning against Him.

"Everyone is invited" by grace in my opinion. The end result however is, some are chosen (in terms of God's sovereignty), some rebel (and with their rebelliousness accepted by God). If grace in this case cannot be rejected, then it becomes "some are invited, as they are chosen".

I believe all are invited to the wedding feast.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men

1 Tim 2:4
who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1 John 12:32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

 

[messianist]

That's not consistent with scripture.

2 Peter 2:20
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

That scripture you provided doesn't line up with what I said.

 

[K Watt]

That scripture you provided doesn't line up with what I said.

It tells us that men who have encountered Christ and been transformed can fall away.

 

[messianist]

It tells us that men who have encountered Christ and been transformed can fall away.

I understand what it's saying, but that's no reflection on what I said.

 

[K Watt]

I understand what it's saying, but that's no reflection on what I said.

OK

 

[messianist]

OK

My original message was, regarding the moment elohim comes and calls a man out of dispare, from darkness into light.