God has to be sovereign or else there is no God.

[hedrick]

It was God. The brothers were just the vessels which God used.

The classic Calvinist position would be "both." The brothers acted because of their own motivations. They weren't just puppets. But God arranged for them to be acting in accordance with his purposes.

 

[martymonster]

The classic Calvinist position would be "both." The brothers acted because of their own motivations. They weren't just puppets. But God arranged for them to be acting in accordance with his purposes.

I'm not really concerned with who believes what. I'm more what scripture teaches. If Calvinists believe X, and X is supported by scriptural evidence, then so be it.

For this particular topic, there are quite a few verses.

Isa 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

Exo 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

1Sa 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
1Sa 16:15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

These are just the first ones that spring to mind.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The classic Calvinist position would be "both." The brothers acted because of their own motivations. They weren't just puppets. But God arranged for them to be acting in accordance with his purposes.

I like the term "compatabilism" rather than Calvinism. As you know, "Calvinism" is a red flag for many people such as martymonster. Most people associate Calvinism only with soteriology, as I am sure you know and they have no idea that there are any other views such as Open Theology, which you mentioned.

I tell my friends who view themselves as at one end of the Calvinist-Arminian spectrum or the other, that the reality is that virtually everyone who claims to be Christian is actually at some point on the spectrum. Sadly, they rarely understand the implications of either end of the spectrum and array themselves as staunch enemies of their opponents.

I certainly view myself as a compatablist. I also agree with most aspects of monergism.

 

[1213]

It was God. The brothers were just the vessels which God used.

Interesting, I don’t think Bible supports that idea.

 

[1213]

I see you overlooked my post. Do you think that the storms at sea for Jonah and for Paul were just pleasant niceties created by God or that they merely happened to be coincidences?

Reason why I didn’t comment it is, I don’t think there is enough support for the idea that God planned them, but I thought it is not useful, if I say that.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Reason why I didn’t comment it is, I don’t think there is enough support for the idea that God planned them, but I thought it is not useful, if I say that.

Thanks!