Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

[Shrewd Manager]

Certainly the second one. (Romans 11:32)
I have always been curious about this one that comes up prior to Rom. 9:18.
Mercy is when you don't get what you deserve. (grace instead of justice)
Compassion is when you get what you don't deserve. (grace in time of need)
Positive opposites. (both are grace)

Romans 9:15
For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

While your definitions have a certain pastoral pizzazz there Steve, not sure if I agree with the 'compassion' definition, which I understand to mean 'joined to suffering', com-passion. May help you to get better than you deserve (ie mercy).

 

[Saint Steven]

... what does the total victory of Christ look like to you?

That's a great question.
And the answer from Damnationism is pathetic. (before I even hear it again) - lol

 

[Shrewd Manager]

That's a great question.
And the answer from Damnationism is pathetic. (before I even hear it again) - lol

Don't think I've had a straight answer to that question yet. I'm all ears, though. Maybe it's worth a thread topic?

 

[Saint Steven]

While your definitions have a certain pastoral pizzazz there Steve, not sure if I agree with the 'compassion' definition, which I understand to mean 'joined to suffering', com-passion. May help you to get better than you deserve (ie mercy).

Thanks. I agree that is part of it. Both are driven by sympathy.
However... I don't see redundancy here, even though it is a poetic device often used for emphasis.

I don't see here a comparison between "mercy" and "compassion".
I see a comparison between having "mercy" and having "compassion".
The act rather than merely the emotion. The same outcome for different reasons.
That's the meat of the Word here. IMHO

I'll probably get nailed for this. We'll see if they are paying attention.
Frankly, getting "nailed" puts me in good company. - lol

Saint Steven said: ↑
Certainly the second one. (Romans 11:32)
I have always been curious about this one that comes up prior to Rom. 9:18.
Mercy is when you don't get what you deserve. (grace instead of justice)
Compassion is when you get what you don't deserve. (grace in time of need)
Positive opposites. (both are grace)

Romans 9:15
For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Don't think I've had a straight answer to that question yet. I'm all ears, though. Maybe it's worth a thread topic?

Having said that, it's been covered every which way by F.L.'s threads lol.

 

[Saint Steven]

Don't think I've had a straight answer to that question yet. I'm all ears, though. Maybe it's worth a thread topic?

This is the place. (one of many, hopefully)

Shrewd Manager said: ↑
... what does the total victory of Christ look like to you?

 

[Saint Steven]

Having said that, it's been covered every which way by F.L.'s threads lol.

Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure? (the topic title)

Your question is spot on.

Shrewd Manager said: ↑
... what does the total victory of Christ look like to you?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

The act rather than merely the emotion. The same outcome for different reasons.

I'd tend to agree, the point is that both roads lead to a better than expected outcome for the sinner. Either God shows mercy as a legalistic indulgence or because He sympathises deeply. So it could be there to cover law and grace covenantal approaches?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure? (the topic title)

Your question is spot on.

Shrewd Manager said: ↑
... what does the total victory of Christ look like to you?

I've been meandering around thread topics for ages and finally a bullseye! Praise the Lord!

 

[Saint Steven]

I'd tend to agree, the point is that both roads lead to a better than expected outcome for the sinner. Either God shows mercy as a legalistic indulgence or because He sympathises deeply. So it could be there to cover law and grace covenantal approaches?

That's a good way to look at it.
I think that the Damnationists tend to forget that a verdict of mercy is still justice.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure? (the topic title)

Your question is spot on.

Shrewd Manager said: ↑
... what does the total victory of Christ look like to you?

Btw a great choice of thread topic Steve, and perhaps qualifies you as the third most humble and righteous servant of God the Kingdom will ever know.

But seriously, it gets right to the core of the problem with damnationist reasoning.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

That's a good way to look at it.
I think that the Damnationists tend to forget that a verdict of mercy is still justice.

When I first read Romans, with my legal background, I was struck by the distinctions between law and grace, and our heritage of law (black letter) and equity (fairness, mercy) jurisdictions. I believe Romans is the foundation for the Western civil law system, wherein equity prevails over law, just as 'mercy boasteth over judgment' (James 2:13, Amos 7:9).

Of course, God's judgment is far more condign, and His mercy far greater than man's. Infinitely so.

 

[Saint Steven]

When I first read Romans, with my legal background, I was struck by the distinctions between law and grace, and our heritage of law (black letter) and equity (fairness, mercy) jurisdictions. I believe Romans is the foundation for the Western civil law system, wherein equity prevails over law, just as 'mercy boasteth over judgment' (James 2:13, Amos 7:9).

Of course, God's judgment is far more condign, and His mercy far greater than man's. Infinitely so.

That's a great insight.
Could you expand on the "equity" idea? I'm not totally connecting with the thought there.
How is grace "equity"?

I think the power of Damnationism lies in the idea that it can't be questioned.
That somehow the questions equate to disbelief. It's a package deal. Bundled with grace.

 

[JacksBratt]

That would be funny if it were true. However, I've never ever heard of a drowning person that wasn't shouting "save me, save me.. help help". If not by words.. by actions and they will actually drown the person who is offering help.. in efforts to get to safety.

So... nope.. not true.

That may be the way you look at it.. however others look at it like this:

A man was stuck on the roof of his car in raging flooded river... He prayed to God to rescue him.

1st a man with a life saving ring swam out with a rope to offer to save him.
The man refused stating "No thanks, God will save me".
2nd a man in a boat risked the torrents to go out to the man to save him.
The man refused stating "No thanks God will save me"
3rd a helicopter came and lowered a rope.
The man again refused stating "No thanks, God will save me"

He drowned..

At the pearly gates he asked St. Peter why God didn't save him..

St. Peter said... "What are you talking about? He sent a man with a rope, a boat and even a helicopter.... and you refused them all."

 

[JacksBratt]

That's why you should consider being a Universal Restorationist.
You know what they say, "Ignorance is bliss." - lol

But seriously, my life has been much less stressful since I gave up the forever burning hell doctrine. I know that everything is going to work out in the end. I am no longer hypervigilant about the "us and them" games that everyone else is playing. (living in fear) I'm generally much more tolerant of others.

That's where you and I differ....

I have no worries about "burning in hell" because I am saved.

I have no worries about all that life throws at me because I know that God has said that he won't give me anything in my life that I have not got sufficient devices to handle.

I have no worries about the end because I know I am going to be with Him.

I have trials and difficulties in my life.. but I have Christ..

I only pray for those that are foolish or arrogant enough to deny Him.

 

[Saint Steven]

That would be funny if it were true. However, I've never ever heard of a drowning person that wasn't shouting "save me, save me.. help help". If not by words.. by actions and they will actually drown the person who is offering help.. in efforts to get to safety.

So... nope.. not true.

Okay. Now apply that to your view of those you claim are rejecting salvation.
That's the point here.

 

[JacksBratt]

Hope your post helps open the eyes of FL and St. S. They have not seen when I present them with linguistic and dictionary proof!

I am actually in total awe.. that Christians would have even a sniff of a belief that nobody goes to eternal damnation.... It's just out right baffling.

 

[JacksBratt]

Yes I agree you should hang your head in shame.

100% agree.

 

[JacksBratt]

My belief that Jesus said many would go away into eternal punishment causes me no stress whatsoever because I am sheltered in the arms of God. I have been a Christian since LBJ was president.

Agreed.

 

[JacksBratt]

Well, your good at finding memes....