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Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

Neogaia777

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Salvation is based on the FINISHED work of Jesus Christ.
Unless that work was somehow deficient, then everyone for whom he died is indeed saved.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins,
and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Who is the everyone whom he died for?

And forgiving the sins of the whole world does not mean everyone is saved, it means that all the problems that all those or that sin had caused or was/is causing were fixed, andbdies mean that everyone is saved or goes to heaven...

And it's entirely not biblical at all anyway, or to boot, etc...

God Bless!
 
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nolidad

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Salvation is based on the FINISHED work of Jesus Christ.
Unless that work was somehow deficient, then everyone for whom he died is indeed saved.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins,
and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

When you read more of the Bible you will see that atoning for the worlds sins does not equal saving everyone!
 
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nolidad

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If I were Jaymen 777 I would want to hide my identity with just a screen name. Though He is very verbose and quotes history on a C- level, He is wrong. He has an agenda and tweaks history to advance his agenda against the Bible while a follower of Jesus should tweak his agenda t follow SCripture.

If I have time one day, I will bring in many greek scholars who will show by real scholarship (and who are not afraid to post their names and education) why this is wrong wrong wrong.
 
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FineLinen

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Who is the everyone whom he died for?

And forgiving the sins of the whole world does not mean everyone ...

Welcome to pas. Pas = the radical all.

"He is the atonement for our sins"

AND

"not for our sins ONLY"

BUT

"for the sins of the whole world".

Jesus Christ is the hilasmos of the holos: the radical ALL!
 
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Saint Steven

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Der Alte

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Great question.
Matthew 25:46 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
"Age-during" a nonsensical term concocted by UR-ites to make scripture support their UR assumptions.
Greek is now and has always been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who better than the native Greek speaking EOB translators know the correct meaning of, e.g. “aionios” and “kolasis?”
Note, in the EOB, Paul uses “αιωνιως/aionios” and “αιδιος/aidios” as synonyms, see Rom 1:20 and 1 Tim 1:17, below.

The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.
1 Timothy 1:17 Now, to the eternal [των αιωνων/tōn aiōnōn] King. immortal. invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory unto ages of ages. Amen.
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. If anyone chooses to consult the EOB version I suggest they read the preface which summarizes the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.
.....In 1 Tim 1:17 Paul not only uses "αιωνιως/aionios" synonymous with “αιδιος/aidios,” in Rom 1:20, but also defines it by pairing it with "immortal" in the same verse.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Eternal conscious torment in the Lake of Fire (bobbing in brimstone) with no hope of escape is unthinkable for even ten minutes.

This is the common error I mentioned earlier that often causes universalists to search for ways to interpret verses that clearly support eternal punishment in such a way that they don’t support it. You’ve got to let the scriptures do the teaching without any preconceived notions. If you already have an agenda when your searching the scriptures your not going to get the correct message. You can’t interpret the scriptures to be what you want them to be and if God has deemed that unbelievers will burn in the lake of fire for all eternity then we have to accept that and trust that He knows what is best. I guarantee He has a perfectly good reason why He has deemed it to be this way and I guarantee neither you, I, or anybody else has a better plan than He does. You have to trust that. You have to trust Him, without question. Otherwise what kind of faith do you really have?
 
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nolidad

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Welcome to pas. Pas = the radical all.

"He is the atonement for our sins"

AND

"not for our sins ONLY"

BUT

"for the sins of the whole world".

Jesus Christ is the hilasmos of the holos: the radical ALL!

It is sad you do not expect the saved to live without end in eternity! Cause as long as the punishment lasts for those who died as unbelievers, that is as long as life lasts for believers!

Matt. 25:45
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

aionios punishment and aionios life!

And both are this:

Speech: Adjective

Case: Accusative

Number: Singular

Gender: Feminine

Sorry, but I cannot allow you to lie about God and His Word!
 
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BNR32FAN

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You go first. - lol

Saint Steven said:
We seem to have gone full circle back to the contradiction you pointed out.

Because all you’ve done is quote scriptures without taking these into account. Your interpretation doesn’t explain how both can be true without contradiction.
 
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BNR32FAN

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It is sad you do not expect the saved to live without end in eternity! Cause as long as the punishment lasts for those who died as unbelievers, that is as long as life lasts for believers!

Matt. 25:45
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

aionios punishment and aionios life!

And both are this:

Speech: Adjective

Case: Accusative

Number: Singular

Gender: Feminine

Sorry, but I cannot allow you to lie about God and His Word!

The same word is used to describe God’s glory, His reign, His power, His kingdom, as well as our life in heaven.
 
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Neogaia777

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Even your source says that they can mean "always", "perpetually", etc, etc, etc...

But as far as I know, the Bible mentions nothing about all, or the ones that go to hell, or especially the lake of fire, etc, only being purified there to be saved at the end of this age or this creation, etc, I think that is 100% and entirely unbiblical, etc...

And I think you only embrace the idea only because you cannot reconcile it with yourself or your own logic, logically, etc, which is something I have tried to help many of you do in this thread, etc, but is not at all because you are trying to reconcile it or them "biblically", etc...

People don't go to, or are sent to hell or the lake of fire, to be saved, ever... That is 100% not biblical at all, etc... Nowhere, absolutely nowhere, does the bible teach or say that, etc... It is a place for the forever and eternally damed, or otherwise, just not chosen, etc, and it is not a place of purification to become or be counted among being one of the saved later on, etc, that idea is 100% not biblical at all, and is not in line with the truth of Scripture or God's Word, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!
 
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Saint Steven

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This is the common error I mentioned earlier that often causes universalists to search for ways to interpret verses that clearly support eternal punishment in such a way that they don’t support it. You’ve got to let the scriptures do the teaching without any preconceived notions. If you already have an agenda when your searching the scriptures your not going to get the correct message. You can’t interpret the scriptures to be what you want them to be and if God has deemed that unbelievers will burn in the lake of fire for all eternity then we have to accept that and trust that He knows what is best. I guarantee He has a perfectly good reason why He has deemed it to be this way and I guarantee neither you, I, or anybody else has a better plan than He does. You have to trust that. You have to trust Him, without question. Otherwise what kind of faith do you really have?
I could say the same thing to you. Although I don't see you exposing bad translation issues. But please take a look at these below. Do they mean what they plainly say?

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins,
and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved
and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
 
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Saint Steven

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Because all you’ve done is quote scriptures without taking these into account. Your interpretation doesn’t explain how both can be true without contradiction.
Right back at you. What makes you right and me wrong?
 
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FineLinen

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This is the common error I mentioned earlier that often causes universalists to search for ways to interpret verses that clearly support eternal punishment

Search = "eternal punishment"

Your search query has yielded no results.

Please modify your query & try again.

Search = "everlasting punishment."

Your search query has yielded one result. Matt. 25:46

Kolasis aionion

Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46

“The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God’s punishment is always for man’s cure.

Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46

Concordant Literal, Young’s literal, Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham’s Emphasized, Scarlett’s, J.W. Hanson’s New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth’s (unedited), Clementson’s, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger’s Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010).

Concerning the duration of kolasis (literally - corrective punishment), Matt. 25:46 says (KJV),

“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.”

Scarlett’s New Testament written in 1792 has “aeonian punishment” in place to “everlasting punishment.”

“And these will go away into aeonian punishment: but the righteous into aeonian life.”

The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson written in 1884 renders Matt. 25:46:

“And these shall go away into aeonian chastisement, and the just into aeonian life.”

Young’s Literal Translation first published in 1898 and reprinted many times since uses the following words:

“And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.”

Professor Young also compiled Young’s Concordance, where one can check the translation of each Hebrew or Greek word as translated in the KJV.

The Twentieth Century New Testament first printed in the year 1900 has:

“And these last will go away ‘into aeonian punishment,’ but the righteous ‘into aeonian life.’”

The Holy Bible in Modern English by Ferrar Fenton first published in 1903 gives the rendering:

"And these He will dismiss into a long correction, but the well-doers to an enduring life.

The New Testament in Modern Speech, by Dr. Weymouth, says:

“And these shall go away into punishment of the ages, but the righteous into life of the ages.”

Dr. Weymouth most frequently adopts such terms as “life of the ages,” “fire of the ages;” and in Rev. 14:6, “The good news of the ages.”

It is a matter to regret that the editors of the most recent edition of Dr. Weymouth’s version have reverted to the KJV renderings for the passages containing the Greek word aion, eon, or age.

The Western New Testament published in 1926 renders Matt. 25:46 as follows:

“And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.”

The translation, however, has a footnote on Matthew 21:19 on the word “forever” which is the same word for “eternal” which says: "Literally, for the age.”

Clementson’s The New Testament (1938) shows,

“And these shall go away into eonian correction, but the righteous into eonian life.”

Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott (1942 edition) translates the verse,

“And these shall go forth to the aionian cutting-off; but the righteous to aionian life.”

It should be noted that the “cutting-off” refers to pruning a fruit tree to make it bear more fruit.

The idea behind the word is not destructive but productive! Had Jesus wanted to emphasize a destructive end, He would have used the word “timoria.”

The Concordant Version (1930):

“And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian.”

The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed printed in 1958 says:

“And these shall go away into agelasting cutting-off and the just into agelasting life.”

Joseph B. Rotherham, in his Emphasized Bible (1959), translates this verse,

“and these shall go away into age-abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life.”

The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible copyrighted in 1976

has “age-abiding correction” instead of “everlasting punishment.”

Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010) has

"And so, these folks will be going off into an eonian pruning (a lopping-off which lasts for an undetermined length of time; an age-lasting correction; a pruning which has its source and character in the Age), yet the fair and just folks who are in right relationship and are in accord with the Way pointed out [go off] into eonian life (life which has it source and character in the Age; life pertaining to the Age)”.

Even some King James Study Bibles will show the reader in the margins or appendixes that the King’s translators were incorrect in their rendering of "eternal punishment.”

The great Companion Bible by Dr. Bullinger is an example of that.

Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46

“The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God’s punishment is always for man’s cure.”

“God is the Source, Guide & Goal of ta panta (the all)”

“From Him ta panta, through Him ta panta, in Him ta panta”
 
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Saint Steven

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You have to trust Him, without question. Otherwise what kind of faith do you really have?
Have you banned critical thinking from the church? Sure looks that way.
 
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Saint Steven

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@nolidad 's post #322.

God Bless!
So, you and nolidad are claiming that Jesus did not die for EVERYONE in the whole world?
For shame!

Saint Steven said:
1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins,
and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
 
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Neogaia777

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I could say the same thing to you. Although I don't see you exposing bad translation issues. But please take a look at these below. Do they mean what they plainly say?

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins,
and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved
and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
All has been reconciled/made available, but not all are saved...

And people do not go to hell, which the bible says there are some that do, to be saved later on or after that either...

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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So, you and nolidad are claiming that Jesus did not die for EVERYONE in the whole world?
For shame!

Saint Steven said:
1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins,
and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
@nolidad 's post #322

God Bless!
 
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