Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

[martymonster]

So, are you saying that those who suffer the second death... will be reborn when death is destroyed?

Or, once souls experience the second death.. that's their end.. Then, death itself is destroyed and there is no more death after that?

I'm saying that the second death is not what you, or most others think it is. You need to understand that Revelation is made up of symbols, and nothing in it is to be taken at face value. This is actually extremely obvious, when you look at it.

Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

I could be here all day, giving examples. No one in their right mind would think that the above, is talking about a literal lamb's wife. Just like that is not literal, neither is any of it ....the lake of fire included.

Fire in scripture is always about God's judgement, and his judgement comes through his word, which is the fire.

Jer 5:14 Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Why a lake of fire?

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:


1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The lake of fire is just baptism, and that baptism is administered by Christ's first fruits, and it's through the first fruits, that the rest of the harvest comes. You don't through the rest of the harvest, just because you've harvested the first fruits.

We are born spiritually dead, but there is a second death, and here is what it is.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[Neogaia777]

I believe there is a such thing as "attaining to a truly free will choice", and that the second that I mention in this, is strictly for those who attained to a true free will free willing ability to choose and/or make choices but chose very, very badly or poorly, but the first ones did not attain to that kind of choice but were just never meant or made for anything more than this, etc...

And the ones that go to be in heaven attained to that true free will free willing choice (and were meant to) but chose "rightly", etc...

God Bless!

However, there will also be, I believe, those who maybe did not attain to a truly true free will choice of choosing that we will see in Heaven as well, etc... Just not all maybe...

Just thought that should be noted...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

You lost me at...

I know I did, cause a lot of you are "lost", etc...

Deceiving yourselves and your own minds, etc...

Unable to see truth not wanting to see truth, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Not according to Jesus himself.

46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Do you really have that little faith in Jesus, that he'd smash ppl forever where they failed to do those works? Guess the philanthropic murderers who run the world would get a pass. Could it be that you're misunderstanding the purpose of the scripture? I take it, for instance, that you've not cut off hand or eye? So why read 25:46 so prejudicially and literally? What happened to getting out after paying the uttermost farthing?

And why does Jesus have to be cast as a psycho who'll 'turns on ya' and unleashes unimaginable torments for non-compliance? It's only there, in a handful of disparate scriptures, if you want it to be. God in the hands of angry sinners lol.

 

[FineLinen]

However, there will also be, I believe, those who maybe did not attain to a truly true free will choice of choosing that we will see in Heaven as well, etc... Just not all maybe...

Just thought that should be noted...

God Bless!

There is no such animal as a "truly free self" here or there. The only free self is one lost & consummated in Him!

 

[Neogaia777]

There is no such animal as a "truly free self" here or there. The only free self is one lost & consummated in Him!

Maybe there is, maybe there isn't, guess we'll see...?

But I do not believe we ever start out with and kind of true free will or being truly free ever, etc, but if we ever did attain to it somehow, or if we ever can or could, our choices aftterwards or after that could have a very, very profound effect on our eternal destiny, etc, for better or for worse, etc...

Was all I was saying or trying to say, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

There is no such animal as a "truly free self" here or there. The only free self is one lost & consummated in Him!

We're not free "there", etc...?

Cause I believe the choice Adam and Eve had or we're presented with is 100% totally restored there, etc...?

But/and/or because I see way way to very many very few human beings really ever truly acting with any kind of true free will right now, etc...

Way way way all to many very very few, etc...

Most of them are not even yet thinking for themselves yet, so how could they even begin to be, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

 

[JacksBratt]

Yup! All four (4) of them!

God ALONE is eternal/ aidios.

God IS the Source, Guide & Goal of ta pante

So, is Heaven a limited time? If only God is eternal.. is "eternal life" for Christians also limited in time?

 

[martymonster]

So, is Heaven a limited time? If only God is eternal.. is "eternal life" for Christians also limited in time?

The kingdom of Heaven in with in you, and eternal life is a who, not a what.

Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

 

[Saint Steven]

God made, planned, and determined the destiny of all the ages by Jesus Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ is the Creator of this universe, and time and space, and there is purpose to it all. Abroad today is the idiotic notion that the universe is running at breakneck speed through time and space like a car that has lost the driver. The interesting thing is that when a car loses the driver there is a wreck, but this universe, even according to the scientists, has been running millions of years, and it has been doing pretty well, by the way. The sun comes up at a certain time every morning; it is very precise. The moon stays in a predictable orbit. As one of the men who works on the moon modules says, all they have to do is aim, and the moon will be there when the module gets there. This is not a mad universe in which you and I live. It has purpose, and the Lord Jesus Christ is the One who gives it purpose. HE is the architect and sovereign Lord of the ages. He FORMED THE AGES and appointed what should be done in each of them. I must, therefore, with utmost force impress upon all who read these lines that, if we are to comprehend God's great plan for the ages, we must raise our eyes far above the engulfing muck and sucking quicksand of Babylonish Church tradition handed down to us by the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth to keep God's people in bondage to eternal hopelessness. God has a plan of the ages! It was conceived by the omnipotent and omniscient Christ of God, the Creator and Redeemer of the world. Its successful conclusion is as sure and unfailing as God Himself is sure and unfailing. God never "flits" from one thing to another. He does not begin one work and then tiring of it, drop it and start another. He does not create what He cannot control. He is not the proverbial mad scientist who creates an UNCONTROLLABLE monster. The prophet Isaiah gives us the words of God wherein God declares, "I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure" (Isa. 46:9-10). God's purpose is so unalterable, so fixed, so certain that He could declare from the very beginning just what the end would be, and that end will come to pass in just exactly that way.

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

 

[JacksBratt]

It always amazes me when you guys describe a decision between heaven and hell as if it is like the choice of an ice cream flavor. Chocolate or vanilla, whatever you want. Matters not. God won't force anyone. La di da...

I mean, we are talking about eternal conscious torment.

I like to think about it this way.
If the person being cast into what you guys describe as hell had a REPENT button that they could push when they have had enough and want to be released, literally everyone who ended up there would push the button within ten seconds. Most probably within five seconds. Of what value is an eternity there?

Firstly... who is "you guys"?

Secondly... Who's choice is it whether someone chooses to accept Christ or reject Him?

Does God choose for us then? If so.. what is the point of all this witnessing and testimony and preaching if it is predetermined as to who is chosen and who is damned?

We all start on a road to damnation due to the simple fact that "all have sinned".

We all have the choice to accept Christ or reject Him.

It is our own doing if we don't.. It is our own choice to choose hell over heaven..


What is your theory? You seem to reject mine.. What is yours?

 

[JacksBratt]

The kingdom of Heaven in with in you, and eternal life is a who, not a what.

Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

What are you trying to say?

 

[Saint Steven]

So, is Heaven a limited time? If only God is eternal.. is "eternal life" for Christians also limited in time?

That's a really great question. And I love Marty's answer. But...
This was one of the first hurdles I had to get over with all this.
If the punishment isn't eternal, then neither is the life.
Fortunately, one age precedes the next. So, after the age of "punishment" (corrective restoration) comes ages of life.

Matthew 25:46
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

 

[martymonster]

What are you trying to say?

I'm saying that eternal life is knowing God. Obviously we will live forever, if the last enemy to be destroyed is death.

 

[FineLinen]

So, is Heaven a limited time? If only God is eternal.. is "eternal life" for Christians also limited in time?

In 9 words the Apostle John who leaned on the bosom of the Master Jesus Christ describes what everlasting life/ aionios zoe is.

"This IS everlasting life, that we may know You..."

Both aionios zoe & aionios kolasis is a calibre of life & punishment: NOT aidios!

 

[JacksBratt]

God made, planned, and determined the destiny of all the ages by Jesus Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ is the Creator of this universe, and time and space, and there is purpose to it all. Abroad today is the idiotic notion that the universe is running at breakneck speed through time and space like a car that has lost the driver. The interesting thing is that when a car loses the driver there is a wreck, but this universe, even according to the scientists, has been running millions of years, and it has been doing pretty well, by the way. The sun comes up at a certain time every morning; it is very precise. The moon stays in a predictable orbit. As one of the men who works on the moon modules says, all they have to do is aim, and the moon will be there when the module gets there. This is not a mad universe in which you and I live. It has purpose, and the Lord Jesus Christ is the One who gives it purpose. HE is the architect and sovereign Lord of the ages. He FORMED THE AGES and appointed what should be done in each of them. I must, therefore, with utmost force impress upon all who read these lines that, if we are to comprehend God's great plan for the ages, we must raise our eyes far above the engulfing muck and sucking quicksand of Babylonish Church tradition handed down to us by the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth to keep God's people in bondage to eternal hopelessness. God has a plan of the ages! It was conceived by the omnipotent and omniscient Christ of God, the Creator and Redeemer of the world. Its successful conclusion is as sure and unfailing as God Himself is sure and unfailing. God never "flits" from one thing to another. He does not begin one work and then tiring of it, drop it and start another. He does not create what He cannot control. He is not the proverbial mad scientist who creates an UNCONTROLLABLE monster. The prophet Isaiah gives us the words of God wherein God declares, "I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure" (Isa. 46:9-10). God's purpose is so unalterable, so fixed, so certain that He could declare from the very beginning just what the end would be, and that end will come to pass in just exactly that way.

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

Ok... so.... We are all just little robots that God controls.. like the rest of His universe?


OR... we are created beings who He wishes to have a relationship with but.. He doesn't want to just create a bunch of minions...He created beings with free will and only wants a relationship with those that have been given the chance to choose... and choose Him....

Otherwise.. the whole gospel is a waste of time and a joke..

The universe runs like a well tuned machine.. as it was designed..

However, those that will inhabit it for eternity... They have to choose to do so..Or.. reject it and choose not to follow their creator and deny Him.. They will die and not partake of the paradise prepared for those that have proven to love God.

 

[JacksBratt]

I'm saying that eternal life is knowing God. Obviously we will live forever, if the last enemy to be destroyed is death.

I feel like you are talking in circles...

What is "knowing God". Satan knows God.. the demons "know God" the fallen angels "know God".. Yet they are cast into the lake of fire and will be destroyed.

Are you saying that someone like Bundy, Manson, Hitler.... will spend a bit of time in Hell but when death is destroyed.. they will live eternally in paradise?

 

[martymonster]

I feel like you are talking in circles...

What is "knowing God". Satan knows God.. the demons "know God" the fallen angels "know God".. Yet they are cast into the lake of fire and will be destroyed.

Are you saying that someone like Bundy, Manson, Hitler.... will spend a bit of time in Hell but when death is destroyed.. they will live eternally in paradise?

Why would you use Bundy, Manson and Hitler as examples? Do you think that they are anymore deserving of eternal torment than you?

 

[Saint Steven]

Firstly... who is "you guys"?

More good questions. Thanks.
Damnationists. (and/or Anihilationists) As opposed to Universal Restorationists.

Secondly... Who's choice is it whether someone chooses to accept Christ or reject Him?

It's not as cut and dried as that.
The Elect are chosen, by definition. And no one can come to God unless He draws them.
But we choose to follow as well. Even daily to take up our cross. And moment by moment. Life comes at us fast. How will we respond?

And I think there is a wider spectrum of responses than either "accept" or "reject". It's more complex than a one time on/off switch. And what does it mean to reject Christ? And how many have even had the opportunity? I think you addressed this pretty well in a previous post. (about salvation)

... Does God choose for us then? If so.. what is the point of all this witnessing and testimony and preaching if it is predetermined as to who is chosen and who is damned?

We all start on a road to damnation due to the simple fact that "all have sinned".

We all have the choice to accept Christ or reject Him.

It is our own doing if we don't.. It is our own choice to choose hell over heaven..


What is your theory? You seem to reject mine.. What is yours?

Marty made mention of the firstfruits. That's a good thing to introduce at this point.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

 

[JacksBratt]

In 9 words the Apostle John who leaned on the bosom of the Master Jesus Christ describes what everlasting life/ aionios zoe is.

"This IS everlasting life, that we may know You..."

Both aionios zoe & aionios kolasis is a calibre of life & punishment: NOT aidios!

That's all riddles..

Do we, as Christians, who have chosen to believe on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ... Live forever in a conscious state in a paradise with our creator.. for ever and ever?

Do those who are sinners and never repent.. like Manson.. like Hitler... Like Fred the jerk on the block who couldn't give a crap about anything and curses God.. criticizes you for believing in Him... Do these all end up in paradise as well?