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Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

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To those who prefer the darkness over the light God grants them exactly what they wanted.

Right, like the harlot of Babylon:

Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
(Rev 18:6)

That's double, not an infinite number. God still loves an even measure, except when it comes to mercy, and that's why, quoth Jesus in his beloved KJV re forgiveness:

Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. (Mt 18:22)

We evildoers get a good taste of our own medicine, like Paul's little Corinthian pal:

To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Cor 5:5)

The flesh, the sinful parts, need destruction as a necessary precursor to salvation. But once purified, destroyed in the fire of God's grace, they can go on to get the healing, like the nations in Rev 22:2.

In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
 
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Saint Steven

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You have turned God into some wussy who after everything is said and done.. just opens the doors of heaven to all the humans.. good, bad and ugly.. A God that doesn't hold to His own words.
No, I'm not saying that at all.
However, I am saying that there will be correction (rather than meaningless punishment) and that it will not be endless. (the purpose being restoration)

Fellowship with God was broken by the first Adam, but will be repaired by the last Adam.

Acts 3:21
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.
 
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And his last word was what? That some go away to eternal reward and some to eternal life.

You must be reading the abridged version lol. The last words in my Bible read "And the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be upon all" (Rev 22:21). Hard to say that with a straight face if 'the many' are contemporaneously suffering of the hideous torment, no?
 
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FineLinen

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That's all riddles..

Do we, as Christians, who have chosen to believe on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ... Live forever in a conscious state in a paradise with our creator.. for ever and ever?

Do those who are sinners and never repent.. like Manson.. like Hitler... Like Fred the jerk on the block who couldn't give a crap about anything and curses God.. criticizes you for believing in Him... Do these all end up in paradise as well?

No one, repeat NO ONE enters into the Realm of Father without change and transformation. That includes all the good guys who have made wonderful choices. All the jerks, the good, the bad, and the ugly are destined to undergo radical transformation.

The radical ALL!

iu
 
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Saint Steven

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Fellowship with God was broken by the first Adam, but will be repaired by the last Adam.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
 
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No one, repeat NO ONE enters into the Realm of Father without change and transformation. That includes all the good guys who have made wonderful choices. All the jerks, the good, the bad, and the ugly are destined to undergo radical transformation.

The radical ALL!

iu

Except for those horrible heretics who deny it's God's pleasure to torture ppl forever.
 
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BNR32FAN

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You have turned our loving heavenly Father into an angry volcano god. And then blamed the victims.

No, I’ve simply taken all scriptures into account, not just bits and pieces.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Acknowledge is defined as "openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back)." Thus not by coercion.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Let us not forget Matthew 7:21-27
 
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No, I’ve simply taken all scriptures into account, not just bits and pieces.

Could you be gilding the lily just a little? I mean, are there really more than a dirty dozen disparate scriptures that can be jostled together to support a doctrine of eternal torment? If so, you'd be the first to 'identificate' them.
 
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Saint Steven

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Let us not forget Matthew 7:21-27
So, how do you harmonize this seeming contradiction?
Is Jesus the Savior of all, or not Savior at all?

Saint Steven said:
Acknowledge is defined as "openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back)." Thus not by coercion.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).
 
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Saint Steven

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There are many precious and important truths contained in this parable, but we must restrain ourselves from pursuing them at this time in order to deal briefly with two points. First, it is important to note that this separation of the sheep from the goats was brought about, not on the basis of whether one had accepted Jesus Christ as his personal saviour, but solely on the basis of WORKS. Everything depended entirely upon what the sheep or goats had DONE or had NOT DONE. There was nothing of faith or a spiritual experience connected with this separation. The sheep were set on God's right hand because of the fact that they had done something - given meat and drink to the LORD'S BRETHREN, clothed them, visited them, and comforted them. All these things the Lord said they had DONE TO HIM. But the sheep confessed that they had never seen Him, so how could they have done these things to the Lord? He answered, "Inasmuch as you have done it to the least of THESE MY BRETHREN, you have done it unto Me." All of this is a kind of ministry unto the Lord Himself and it brought all these people into a separation unto blessings of the right hand of God! This had nothing whatever to do with how the sheep treated the Jews, or the orphans in foreign lands, or the destitute masses or the poor drunk in the gutter. None of those are the Lord's brethren! Paul identifies the Lord's brethren in Rom. 8:29, "For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." The Lord's brethren are the sons of God, the members of His body, of His flesh, of His bone, of His spirit and nature. The sheep had responded in a positive way to these brethren in their time of testing and preparation during their sojourn in the flesh, and now there is rich reward!

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1
 
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BNR32FAN

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Right, like the harlot of Babylon:

Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
(Rev 18:6)

That's double, not an infinite number. God still loves an even measure, except when it comes to mercy, and that's why, quoth Jesus in his beloved KJV re forgiveness:

Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. (Mt 18:22)

We evildoers get a good taste of our own medicine, like Paul's little Corinthian pal:

To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Cor 5:5)

The flesh, the sinful parts, need destruction as a necessary precursor to salvation. But once purified, destroyed in the fire of God's grace, they can go on to get the healing, like the nations in Rev 22:2.

In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

So what your saying is everyone who says to Jesus Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, and everyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will be forgiven? I could’ve swore that Jesus said the exact opposite somewhere in the scriptures.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Could you be gilding the lily just a little? I mean, are there really more than a dirty dozen disparate scriptures that can be jostled together to support a doctrine of eternal torment? If so, you'd be the first to 'identificate' them.

How many does it take?
 
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BNR32FAN

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So, how do you harmonize this seeming contradiction?
Is Jesus the Savior of all, or not Savior at all?

There ya go trying to twist what I said into the most obtuse and ridiculous meaning possible in order to imply that somehow what I said indicates that Jesus’ sacrifice didn’t save anyone. What a truly ridiculous, and dishonest I might add, statement that was. Let’s try to keep this an honest, intelligent discussion in the future please.
 
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Neogaia777

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Look, people go to the second place I mentioned, fully conscious and comepletely aware eternal conscious torment, etc, because they chose it or to go there, etc, and with the first I mentioned, not conscious but eternal torment, etc, but of another kind of torment, etc, the first go there (or stay here, etc) cause, for one, they were never really truly conscious or were ever meant to be or become conscious to begin with, for one thing, but also the main reason is just because they just were never meant or were made or were created for or destined or purposed for, anything more than this ever, etc, nor were made or created to be, etc, so will live eternally only in these types of creations or existences for as long as these creations/types of existences are meant to be, or exist, etc, which is forever, although and because they go through "time", etc, which is to say that they and the creations they were in and only meant for, have a beginning, middle, and end or ending and everything in between, those creations, etc, and the people in them were only meant for those only, forever, when they both live and die, in places like this or these now, or in thse lives/creations/existences, etc, they are not conscious of anything, nor are they brought back to consciousness ever, until they are ready to live (and die) in a veryb very temporary and fleeting another kind of existence like these, etc, that is to say, the same kind of life and existence, that they lived as in, or in creations (plural) prior to them/it/that/this, etc, and then only to ever be again in next ones after it/them/that, only when there "number comes up again", etc, they spend a great, great deal of time "dead" or not conscious, a lot of time that wayb etc, until when they come back in another creation when their number comes up to live (and die) much as they did before (and always will after) in these kind of lives or creations or existences only again, etc, they have no conscious memory of any of the experiences, etc, ever, forever, or at any time, etc... Like I said "twilight zone" stuff in the first ones cases, etc...

They are only, and were only ever, and are only forever only meant for ever, only here ever, and a only a very temporary time here ever, forever, etc... Temporary programs or constructs meant to only ever serve a very temporary and fleeting kind of existence, etc, that only come back, or were only ever quote/unquote, "alive" before that or will be after that, etc, when they're temporary, temporary purpose or program or constuct is meant to run it's program/existence again, and that is the only time they ever exist, etc, and this is "forever", etc, they spend a great deal of time "dead" or not conscious, or asleep, until these programs are only needed for a very short time again, and other than that, experience no kind of consciousness outside or beyond that or these types or existences like these, ever, "forever" etc...

And they also have no memory of this also ever, etc... "Forever", etc...

"Twilight zone", etc...

God Bless!
 
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There ya go trying to twist what I said into the most obtuse and ridiculous meaning possible in order to imply that somehow what I said indicates that Jesus’ sacrifice didn’t save anyone. What a truly ridiculous, and dishonest I might add, statement that was. Let’s try to keep this an honest, intelligent discussion in the future please.
Dishonest?
You were attempting to nullify one scripture with another. Bible versus Bible.

Was this to claim that NOT every knee will bow, and NOT every tongue confess?
Or just to claim that it would be to none effect? Or that God will only accept it from a select group? (even though it was genuine)
 
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So what your saying is everyone who says to Jesus Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, and everyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will be forgiven? I could’ve swore that Jesus said the exact opposite somewhere in the scriptures.

Good-o, you've found 2 so far.

So you read the passage at Matt 7:21 et seq to mean that Jesus is going to send at least some of his hardworking disciples to burn forever, and without clearly telling them why?

And isn't it fair to say that 'blasphemy of the Holy Spirit' is by no means a well-defined or uncontentious area for Christians?

So on vague grounds, Jesus informs believers that some of us will pay the ultimate price without hope of redemption? Must make you a little uneasy, and Jesus a little untrustworthy, on that analysis.

It's a bit like Matt 5:22:
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Bit of a step-up in penalty isn't it, for a harsh word to a brother? Burn in hell forever? You think this is what he's saying? Where's that 'fine line' between chastisement at the hands of the Council and ETERNAL DAMNATION? Curious, eh?

Could it be that the hellfire Jesus is referring to is for corrective purposes (and therefore not forever)?
 
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How many does it take?

Well, it would have been nice to see hell mentioned in the catalogue of God's 'very good' creation in Genesis, for instance. Just one of those little details that may have slipped the divine mind. In fact, some direct and unambiguous scriptures anywhere in the OT would have been good. It's of some passing importance, the appreciable risk of an infinite agony, wouldn't you say?

Or maybe something in John 3:16, that would have been nice, it's a popular passage. But instead we see references to sin and perishing, and the death wages. Talk about hyper-inflation lol.
 
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Neogaia777

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Look, people go to the second place I mentioned, fully conscious and comepletely aware eternal conscious torment, etc, because they chose it or to go there, etc, and with the first I mentioned, not conscious but eternal torment, etc, but of another kind of torment, etc, the first go there (or stay here, etc) cause, for one, they were never really truly conscious or were ever meant to be or become conscious to begin with, for one thing, but also the main reason is just because they just were never meant or were made or were created for or destined or purposed for, anything more than this ever, etc, nor were made or created to be, etc, so will live eternally only in these types of creations or existences for as long as these creations/types of existences are meant to be, or exist, etc, which is forever, although and because they go through "time", etc, which is to say that they and the creations they were in and only meant for, have a beginning, middle, and end or ending and everything in between, those creations, etc, and the people in them were only meant for those only, forever, when they both live and die, in places like this or these now, or in thse lives/creations/existences, etc, they are not conscious of anything, nor are they brought back to consciousness ever, until they are ready to live (and die) in a veryb very temporary and fleeting another kind of existence like these, etc, that is to say, the same kind of life and existence, that they lived as in, or in creations (plural) prior to them/it/that/this, etc, and then only to ever be again in next ones after it/them/that, only when there "number comes up again", etc, they spend a great, great deal of time "dead" or not conscious, a lot of time that wayb etc, until when they come back in another creation when their number comes up to live (and die) much as they did before (and always will after) in these kind of lives or creations or existences only again, etc, they have no conscious memory of any of the experiences, etc, ever, forever, or at any time, etc... Like I said "twilight zone" stuff in the first ones cases, etc...

They are only, and were only ever, and are only forever only meant for ever, only here ever, and a only a very temporary time here ever, forever, etc... Temporary programs or constructs meant to only ever serve a very temporary and fleeting kind of existence, etc, that only come back, or were only ever quote/unquote, "alive" before that or will be after that, etc, when they're temporary, temporary purpose or program or constuct is meant to run it's program/existence again, and that is the only time they ever exist, etc, and this is "forever", etc, they spend a great deal of time "dead" or not conscious, or asleep, until these programs are only needed for a very short time again, and other than that, experience no kind of consciousness outside or beyond that or these types or existences like these, ever, "forever" etc...

And they also have no memory of this also ever, etc... "Forever", etc...

"Twilight zone", etc...

God Bless!
Again, I do believe that there will be people who are in the first group who will go to heaven, that never really reached or attained to full true conscious awareness or of having a true or true free will choices here, etc, but not all, etc, some just are not nor ever were meant for anything more than this ever, forever, etc...

But with the second kind, it will be because of a very pivotal true free will choice or decision they made, or did not make, with their true free will power of choice or choosing, etc...

The first kind will be because God chose for them, or just made or created each type to be the way they are, etc, and some to be chosen, and some not to be meant for/to or chosen, etc, and this from the very beginning, etc...

And others, like with the second group, he will have destined or predestined or willed to have or make some kind of pivotal choice or pivotal decision or deciding in the matter, etc...

God Bless!
 
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Saint Steven

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How many does it take?
The one with the most verses wins. - lol

Unfortunately for you, Universal Restoration is pretty much everywhere that the few Damnationism verses aren't. Some are more obvious than others. Like these.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
 
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