Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

[renniks]

I didn't say that the sower made the soils bad. But those that the soils represent were made bad according to Damnationism. Does the bad soil represents "the lost" or the saved? Obviously they did not have the CAPACITY to benefit from the gospel. Why did they NOT have the capacity? (I suppose you would blame them)

And yes, according to Damnationism God created countless billions solely for damnation.
Narrow is the way and few that find it. Correct? Few. What then becomes of the majority?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Once again you blame the victims. Did those soils make themselves bad, or were they made bad?

The soils made themselves bad.

13 The seeds that fell on rocky ground stand for those who hear the message and receive it gladly. But it does not sink deep into them; they believe only for a while but when the time of testing comes, they fall away. 14 The seeds that fell among thorn bushes stand for those who hear; but the worries and riches and pleasures of this life crowd in and choke them, and their fruit never ripens. 15 The seeds that fell in good soil stand for those who hear the message and retain it in a good and obedient heart, and they persist until they bear fruit.

Where is the emphasis here? It's not on the sower throwing the seed in the wrong places, it's on the soil itself either doing or not doing was needed to "persist" and bear fruit.

Narrow is the way because most don't accept Christ. He is the narrow way, the door, the gate. The fault again is not that the gate isn't available its' that they don't enter, they try to jump over the fence another way, I believe that's in John 10.

 

[Saint Steven]

The soils made themselves bad.

Once again, blaming the victims.

The soils didn't make themselves bad.

- Why were they shallow? (because they weren't deep, is that a crime?)
- Why were they weak when tested? (needed more time to mature, some are like that)
- Why did life crowd in? (they had a life)

Because they made themselves bad?
No. It is because the did not understand (retain) it. - vs 23 below
Whose fault is that?

The bottom line
Those with good soil are more fruitful. That's all.

Matthew 13:18-23
“Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

 

[Saint Steven]

As men with the aid of God's Word have gazed into the vista of the future, it seems to have missed their understanding that God says very little in His Word about eternity, while devoting many hundreds of passages to His will and works wrought through THE AGES. "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds" (Heb. 1:1-2). What tremendous statements we have here! God has spoken to us through His Son - literally, "spoke to us in Son," or, God spoke to us in One who has the character that He is a SON, revealing the realm and relationship of sonship to God. This Son is heir of all things and, blessed be God! we are joint heirs with Him. "By whom also He made the worlds.” Many people believe this refers to the creative act - "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Actually, it does not refer to that at all. The word here for "worlds" is AIONAS. It means ages- "... by whom He made the ages." This goes beyond His being the Creator of matter and its arrangement into multiplied billions of stars, suns, and planets with their atmospheres and inhabitants. This lends purpose to everything. He is the heir who GIVES THE PROGRAM FOR THE FUTURE! He framed the ages, He ordained the end from the beginning; not only did He create everything, He did it for a purpose, and "known unto God are all His works from the beginning of the world" (Acts 15:18). Notice - the Amplified Bible says, "But in the last of these days He has spoken to us in the person of a Son, Whom He appointed Heir and lawful Owner of all things, also by and through Whom He created the worlds and the reaches of space and the AGES OF TIME - that is, He made, produced, built, operated and arranged them in order!” "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God." (Heb. 11:3), but it should read, "the ages were planned by the word of God."

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

 

[JacksBratt]

This common claim falls flat when analyzed.

Though creation does in fact reflect the creator, it does not provide a gospel message about Christ to respond to.

Therefore, there is no salvation to be found in nature, only the evidence of a creator.

I didn't say that creation provide the gospel message. I said that God will judge, justly I might add, those that did not hear the gospel... yet were provided the knowledge of right and wrong and proof of a creator as it was and is displayed in this universe.. so that "they are without excuse".

In other words.. when these people who have never heard of the gospel.. stand at Jesus feet... they will not be able to say "well, I didn't know it was wrong".... or "I had no evidence of you God".

They will have no excuses.. Their heart will give them away and God knows us better than we know ourselves...

Those that never heard the gospel and recognized that they were doing wrong and tried to do what was righteous... understanding their actions... understanding that this universe had a higher power and creator..

These will be found righteous..

 

[JacksBratt]

Is the purpose of this op to answer and discuss the/those answers to "Is Jesus the Savior of the world or an eternal failure?"

I ask because the opening of the book cited makes a logical error. Not only is there a logical error but related to the question of Jesus' success or failure there are red herrings, or things that are misleading or distracting from the inquiry about Jesus' success/failure. Eby states, "there is one that is of supreme interest and importance..." and he then proceeds to ask over a dozen questions! Many of which may have nothing to do with the question of Jesus' success or failure. For example, why we're here may have nothing to do with the Jesus' success. Alternatively, many of the questions asked would be answered differently based on one's theological perspective; catholics and Universalists are going to answer the question of destiny much differently. Calvinist Protestants and those in the Orthodox (capital "O") perspective might address the nature of sin differently. And why should anyone choose to frame the conversation in answer to these questions from the point of view of Poe? Poe might have been "a genius of letters" but what makes him knowledgeable of Jesus or the theological answers to the questions asked.

And anyone reading Eby's book should have caught this manipulation subterfuge the moment it was attempted. I call it "manipulation" and "subterfuge" because of it inherently fallacious nature. Eby was born in a Mennonite environment but had a Pentecostal Brethren experience at a young age. Aside from the fact these groups are normative and statistical outliers ecclesiastically, we can assume from an early age Eby knows something of Christian theology and Church doctrine (at least from Mennonite and Brethren povs). Beyond that there is little information about Eby's academic, theological, or Christian training available and therefore nothing to inform us about his intelligence and/or intellectual attributes. This is important because someone with the kind of training we look for would not begin his book with fallacy.

There are only three logical explanations for arguing fallaciously: 1) lack of knowledge or ignorance, 2) incompetence, 3) a willful intent to deceive. If there is a fourth or fifth explanation how and why an intelligent, well-informed, and experienced pastor would engage in such practice I would sincerely like to know it. Otherwise, I hope every poster reading this post has the fortitude to accept what I have written no matter how much or little they may like Eby otherwise. I would ask the same question of any other writer no matter who they are or from whence they come.

What we can definitely, firmly, unequivocally say and stand immovably upon is a single simple truth: The Holy Spirit does NOT argue using fallacy. God is a God of reason and even though his reasoning may be extra-rational to us finite humans it is never irrational. All humans make mistakes and one's education is no guarantee of brilliance or articulation but we can hold more responsible those to whom much has been given (or those claiming to have been given much). We also know that those assuming the role of teacher will be held to a much higher standard.
The purpose of this post is to help readers to get into the practice of approaching what we read presuppositionally, no matter who or what is being read.





So I wonder why Eby thinks the opening of his book is noteworthy or worth reading AND how it answers the question "Did Jesus succeed or did he fail?"




Otherwise, there isn't anything particularly controversial in this op. There's much in Eby's theology that might be considered "controversial," but others might use more blunt labels and call it what it is: Dispensational futurist eschatologically-driven theology based on a a unique hermeneutic that has very little to do with the historical position(s) the Church has taken.





Now, Steven, if memory serves me correctly you and I have traded posts over what I have posted above before (might have been earlier in this very op; I didn't check). It doesn't usually go well for either of us because I have challenged the veracity of Eby, not just Eby's theology (which is heavily eschatological in nature). And because I have questioned the veracity of Eby's perspective it is challenging to your allegiance to Eby, even though it is demonstrable Eb'y's view is an historically outlying perspective both normatively and statistically. So it is my hope we can have a discussion about the veracity of what is posted as measured by the Bible when correctly rendered. and keep the conversation as objective as possible and not make it personal. Your personal affinity for Eby is irrelevant to me; either a reasonable and rational case for the success or failure of Christ's success can be made or it can't. That is what matters. If we do that then we should be able to build from consensus - a consensus with scripture, not just among ourselves - and handle disagreement in a godly manner.


I will approach the question, "Did Jesus succeed or fail?" as it should be approached in a separate post.

great post... well written.

 

[JacksBratt]

Where did you get this assertion? Where did the assertion Jesus has only one mission in his incarnation originate? Do you have something in the Bible that states Jesus had only one mission?

I can think of three places the Bible assigns three different objectives for Jesus' coming in the first century (all of which were accomplished).​

Perhaps more importantly, is this question asked soteriologically or eschatologically? Eby is a futurist so his answer will be divided into the first century incarnation and the Second Coming. Is that what you mean to discuss in this op; a two-part mission or a two-part fulfillment of success? If so please state this plainly so we can understand the purpose of the op?

Yes, of course Jesus succeeded. Answering that question in detail requires a correct understanding of the "mission." I would start with the intersection of Genesis 1:1 and 1 Peter 1:20 and work from there.

1 Peter 1 :17-21
"17If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; 18knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, 19but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. 20For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you 21who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God."​

Before the world was created, before a single atom was created, before a single human ever drew breath, before a single sin ever occurred, before the Law of Moses was ever written, Jesus was foreknown as the perfect, blemish-free sacrifice.

And he accomplished that mission.

Great post.. again.

 

[Saint Steven]

I didn't say that creation provide the gospel message. I said that God will judge, justly I might add, those that did not hear the gospel... yet were provided the knowledge of right and wrong and proof of a creator as it was and is displayed in this universe.. so that "they are without excuse".

In other words.. when these people who have never heard of the gospel.. stand at Jesus feet... they will not be able to say "well, I didn't know it was wrong".... or "I had no evidence of you God".

They will have no excuses.. Their heart will give them away and God knows us better than we know ourselves...

Those that never heard the gospel and recognized that they were doing wrong and tried to do what was righteous... understanding their actions... understanding that this universe had a higher power and creator..

These will be found righteous..

What are you claiming in essence is the basis for salvation?

 

[JacksBratt]

What are you claiming in essence is the basis for salvation?

For those that have heard the gospel.. it is faith and belief in Christ as their savior.

For those who never had the opportunity.. it will be a judgement brought down by God on them based on what they did with the knowledge that was placed on their heart and how they handled life with the things "seen and unseen" that declare God.

However, it is still the fact that Christ paid the price for all mankind. Even those that never heard the gospel.

When someone like Abraham is given salvation.. it is still only possible because Christ, a sinless man, died for Abraham's sins.

When a tribe on some desert island has marriage ceremonies and banishes tribe members for murder or steeling.. It is due to their knowledge of right and wrong that is place in their heart.. the hearts of all men...

It's Christ's blood that pays their ransom...


Romans 2:14-16 King James Version (KJV)

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:


15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another


16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


OR, put another way:

Romans 2:14-16 New International Version (NIV)
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

 

[Saint Steven]

For those that have heard the gospel.. it is faith and belief in Christ as their savior.

For those who never had the opportunity.. it will be a judgement brought down by God on them based on what they did with the knowledge that was placed on their heart and how they handled life with the things "seen and unseen" that declare God.

However, it is still the fact that Christ paid the price for all mankind. Even those that never heard the gospel.

When someone like Abraham is given salvation.. it is still only possible because Christ, a sinless man, died for Abraham's sins.

When a tribe on some desert island has marriage ceremonies and banishes tribe members for murder or steeling.. It is due to their knowledge of right and wrong that is place in their heart.. the hearts of all men...

It's Christ's blood that pays their ransom...


Romans 2:14-16 King James Version (KJV)

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:


15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another


16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


OR, put another way:

Romans 2:14-16 New International Version (NIV)
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

I actually agree with what you have said here.
What then is the basis for damnation? (assuming you believe in that)

 

[martymonster]

Well He did. But as you rely more on English than looking into the original languages, you are like a marathon runner with no legs!

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

As I showed St. Stephen and Fine Linen everlasting and eternal are the same word! So if the punishment is temporary, then the life is temporary as well.

REv. 14:
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


But most damning for repentance after death are these two verses:

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Jesus said that unbelievers shall NOT see life- but you say He is only kidding!

Show me a verse that shows that men can repent in the lake of fire and I will believe you!

Luke 16:

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

The lost awaiting the lake of fire- cannot pass to paradise! But you say they can! Should we believe the Bible or you?

My understanding does not rest on the translation of everlasting, forever and ever or eternal. I know what that word means. It's an indefinite amount of time.
We know that life will have no end after the restitution of all things, because the last enemy to be destroyed is death. Also, how does that work? If the lake of fire which is the second death, lasts forever, then how is death destroyed?

Also, eternal life is not a what, but a who.

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

You can be fluent in ancient Greek, ancient Hebrew, Arimaic, immerse yourself in Jewish custom, and still understand the scriptures.

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Perhaps you could explain to me the meaning of "comparing spiritual with spiritual" since it's obviously the key to understanding the scriptures.

Cheers!

 

[JacksBratt]

I actually agree with what you have said here.
What then is the basis for damnation? (assuming you believe in that)

The basis for damnation is anyone unrighteous.. who basically has sinned.. so... every human that ever lived... who, upon judgement, is found without reason to have been covered by the blood of Christ.

So, those that have heard the gospel... and denied it. Denied Christ... Denied God.

For those who have never heard the gospel... those who knew what was right and wrong, had the knowledge that I previously mentioned, on their heart.. and choose to ignore it and those things seen and unseen that are evidence of the Creator.

In these cases God will judge justly and nobody will be able to object to His judgement. And, each soul will know in their heart... that He is right and they were judged fairly and justly.

In the end.. people condemn themselves.. God has given this great paradise for eternity to all those who accept the fact that Jesus paid for their pardon..

Why would He send someone there.. when they don't want to be there?

If you want to be there, you will accept the free gift..

If you don't want to be there.. you will do what you like.

God will grant both their wish.

 

[JacksBratt]

My understanding does not rest on the translation of everlasting, forever and ever or eternal. I know what that word means. It's an indefinite amount of time.
We know that life will have no end after the restitution of all things, because the last enemy to be destroyed is death. Also, how does that work? If the lake of fire which is the second death, lasts forever, then how is death destroyed?

Also, eternal life is not a what, but a who.

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

You can be fluent in ancient Greek, ancient Hebrew, Arimaic, immerse yourself in Jewish custom, and still understand the scriptures.

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Perhaps you could explain to me the meaning of "comparing spiritual with spiritual" since it's obviously the key to understanding the scriptures.

Cheers!

After all those that are deserving of eternal death... suffer the spiritual death.. then death is destroyed and all those who remain will never fear it.

 

[martymonster]

After all those that are deserving of eternal death... suffer the spiritual death.. then death is destroyed and all those who remain will never fear it.

If anyone is dead, then death is not destroyed.

 

[FineLinen]

After all those that are deserving of eternal death... suffer the spiritual death.. then death is destroyed and all those who remain will never fear it.

Search = "eternal death"

Your search query has yielded no results.

Please modify your query & try again.

Search = "spiritual death"

Your search query has yielded no results.

Please modify your query & try again.

All 4 hells (the radical pas) end in the Lake of Theos

 

[JacksBratt]

If anyone is dead, then death is not destroyed.

So, are you saying that those who suffer the second death... will be reborn when death is destroyed?

Or, once souls experience the second death.. that's their end.. Then, death itself is destroyed and there is no more death after that?

 

[JacksBratt]

Search = "eternal death"

Your search query has yielded no results.

Please modify your query & try again.

Search = "spiritual death"

Your search query has yielded no results.

Please modify your query & try again.

All 4 hells (the radical pas) end in the Lake of Theos

So, should I have said.. "the second death"..

Are you suggesting that hell has a time limit?

 

[FineLinen]

Are you suggesting that hell has a time limit?

Yup! All four (4) of them!

God ALONE is eternal/ aidios.

God IS the Source, Guide & Goal of ta pante

 

[Neogaia777]

Hell is either staying in and only ever being a part of or only meant for these kinds of existences only, forever, and is eternal torment but not conscious eternal torment as you are only brought back to live another kind of existence much like the one you just lived and died in, only when or after this creation ceases or ends and another one just like begins again, etc, at which time you are brought back again, (but are not conscious of any of it at all ever), and then you live again in a type of existence much just like or exactly like the one you just lived (and died) in, in a/the creation that was prior to that, then live and die again, only to be brought back again, when that creation has ended and another one has begun again, then brought back to the exact same kind of existence again, (but are not conscious ever of any of it or this at all ever, etc), "anyway", "forever", etc... It is not conscious eternal torment but is eternal torment, etc...

The other kind is conscious eternal torment, it is when you go to either dream or nightmare land, the land of dreams, but have no breaks and no one teaching or guiding or directing you or teaching you (or educating you about) any kind of "control" in that place, etc, or of learning the kind of knowledge that it takes to learn control in that place, and no breaks ever, etc, or being able to unplug and then plug back into it with a teacher or a guide ever at will ever, etc, and this is what would separate heaven from hell in that place, I believe that heaven is place where you can either plug into or unplug from that kind of place and is a place from which you have a, or many teachers and/or educators or guides, but some don't get to go or be in heaven, but are stuck in that kind of place not being able to ever plug into or disconnect or ever unplug from ever that kind of place at will at all ever (forever) and have no teacher or guide(s), etc, (eternal separation from God, and/or the Kingdom of God or Heaven, etc) which would make that kind of place and eternal living conscious tormentuos nightmare, etc, instead of a very wonderful blissful peaceful place or playground, etc, or a kind of very great hell, instead of a kind of very, very wonderful heaven, etc...

Eternal conscious torment in the second case, etc, and eternal not conscious torment in the first case, etc...

The first kind is "twilight zone" stuff, etc, is the best way I can describe the first, etc, and the second kind is just pure plain hell, a conscious eternal nightmare, absolute chaos, etc, great torment, etc, when it is without God, or the Kingdom of God, etc...

God Bless!

I believe there is a such thing as "attaining to a truly free will choice", and that the second that I mention in this, is strictly for those who attained to a true free will free willing ability to choose and/or make choices but chose very, very badly or poorly, but the first ones did not attain to that kind of choice but were just never meant or made for anything more than this, etc...

And the ones that go to be in heaven attained to that true free will free willing choice (and were meant to) but chose "rightly", etc...

God Bless!

 

[Saint Steven]

The basis for damnation is anyone unrighteous.. who basically has sinned.. so... every human that ever lived... who, upon judgement, is found without reason to have been covered by the blood of Christ.

So, those that have heard the gospel... and denied it. Denied Christ... Denied God.

For those who have never heard the gospel... those who knew what was right and wrong, had the knowledge that I previously mentioned, on their heart.. and choose to ignore it and those things seen and unseen that are evidence of the Creator.

In these cases God will judge justly and nobody will be able to object to His judgement. And, each soul will know in their heart... that He is right and they were judged fairly and justly.

In the end.. people condemn themselves.. God has given this great paradise for eternity to all those who accept the fact that Jesus paid for their pardon..

Why would He send someone there.. when they don't want to be there?

If you want to be there, you will accept the free gift..

If you don't want to be there.. you will do what you like.

God will grant both their wish.

It always amazes me when you guys describe a decision between heaven and hell as if it is like the choice of an ice cream flavor. Chocolate or vanilla, whatever you want. Matters not. God won't force anyone. La di da...

I mean, we are talking about eternal conscious torment.

I like to think about it this way.
If the person being cast into what you guys describe as hell had a REPENT button that they could push when they have had enough and want to be released, literally everyone who ended up there would push the button within ten seconds. Most probably within five seconds. Of what value is an eternity there?

 

[FineLinen]

Yup! All four (4) of them!

God ALONE is eternal/ aidios.

God IS the Source, Guide & Goal of ta pante

By these three prepositions Paul ascribes the universe (ta panta) with all the phenomena concerning creation, redemption, providence to God as the…

Ex= The Source

Di= The Agent

Eiv= The Goal

The Koine, ta pavnte, is the strongest word for all in the Scriptures; it literally means the all.

ta pavnte/ ta panta, “in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the all things, the universe, and, everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.”

**It is not in the limited sense of “nearly all”, “pavnte” minus “ta”

The final preposition [eiv) reveals the ultimate goal of all that is. What has been provided in Christ is a re-turn, a re-storation, a re-newing, a re-demption, a re-concilation, a re-surrection, a re-stitution.

The prefix “re” means back again, again, anew–and all the words with this prefix speak of something that left its place and has now made its circuit and come back to the point of its beginning.

In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;… down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis