Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

[Neogaia777]

Hell is either staying in and only ever being a part of or only meant for these kinds of existences only, forever, and is eternal torment but not conscious eternal torment as you are only brought back to live another kind of existence much like the one you just lived and died in, only when or after this creation ceases or ends and another one just like begins again, etc, at which time you are brought back again, (but are not conscious of any of it at all ever), and then you live again in a type of existence much just like or exactly like the one you just lived (and died) in, in a/the creation that was prior to that, then live and die again, only to be brought back again, when that creation has ended and another one has begun again, then brought back to the exact same kind of existence again, (but are not conscious ever of any of it or this at all ever, etc), "anyway", "forever", etc... It is not conscious eternal torment but is eternal torment, etc...

The other kind is conscious eternal torment, it is when you go to either dream or nightmare land, the land of dreams, but have no breaks and no one teaching or guiding or directing you or teaching you (or educating you about) any kind of "control" in that place, etc, or of learning the kind of knowledge that it takes to learn control in that place, and no breaks ever, etc, or being able to unplug and then plug back into it with a teacher or a guide ever at will ever, etc, and this is what would separate heaven from hell in that place, I believe that heaven is place where you can either plug into or unplug from that kind of place and is a place from which you have a, or many teachers and/or educators or guides, but some don't get to go or be in heaven, but are stuck in that kind of place not being able to ever plug into or disconnect or ever unplug from ever that kind of place at will at all ever (forever) and have no teacher or guide(s), etc, (eternal separation from God, and/or the Kingdom of God or Heaven, etc) which would make that kind of place and eternal living conscious tormentuos nightmare, etc, instead of a very wonderful blissful peaceful place or playground, etc, or a kind of very great hell, instead of a kind of very, very wonderful heaven, etc...

Eternal conscious torment in the second case, etc, and eternal not conscious torment in the first case, etc...

The first kind is "twilight zone" stuff, etc, is the best way I can describe the first, etc, and the second kind is just pure plain hell, a conscious eternal nightmare, absolute chaos, etc, great torment, etc, when it is without God, or the Kingdom of God, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Der Alte]

Hell is either staying in and only ever being a part of or only meant for these kinds of existences only, forever, and is eternal torment but not conscious eternal torment as you are only brought back to live another kind of existence much like the one you just lived and died in, only when or after this creation ceases or ends and another one just like begins again, etc, at which time you are brought back again, (but are not conscious of any of it at all ever), and then you live again in a type of existence much just like or exactly like the one you just lived (and died) in, in a/the creation that was prior to that, then live and die again, only to be brought back again, when that creation has ended and another one has begun again, then brought back to the exact same kind of existence again, (but are not conscious ever of any of it or this at all ever, etc), "anyway", "forever", etc... It is not conscious eternal torment but is eternal torment, etc...
The other kind is conscious eternal torment, it is when you go to either dream or nightmare land, the land of dreams, but have no breaks and no one teaching or guiding or directing you or teaching you (or educating you about) any kind of "control" in that place, etc, or of learning the kind of knowledge that it takes to learn control in that place, and no breaks ever, etc, or being able to unplug and then plug back into it with a teacher or a guide ever at will ever, etc, and this is what would separate heaven from hell in that place, I believe that heaven is place where you can either plug into or unplug from that kind of place and is a place from which you have a, or many teachers and/or educators or guides, but some don't get to go or be in heaven, but are stuck in that kind of place not being able to ever plug into or disconnect or ever unplug from ever that kind of place at will at all ever (forever) and have no teacher or guide(s), etc, (eternal separation from God, and/or the Kingdom of God or Heaven, etc) which would make that kind of place and eternal living conscious tormentuos nightmare, etc, instead of a very wonderful blissful peaceful place or playground, etc, or a kind of very great hell, instead of a kind of very, very wonderful heaven, etc...
Eternal conscious torment in the second case, etc, and eternal not conscious torment in the first case, etc...
God Bless!

Greek is and has always been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who better than the native Greek speaking EOB translators know the correct meaning of, e.g. “aionios” and “kolasis?”
Note, in the EOB, Paul uses “αιωνιως/aionios” and “αιδιος/aidios” as synonyms, see Rom 1:20 and 1 Tim 1:17, below.

The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.
1 Timothy 1:17 Now, to the eternal [των αιωνων/tōn aiōnōn] King. immortal. invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory unto ages of ages. Amen.
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf​

The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. If anyone chooses to consult the EOB version I suggest they read the preface which summarizes the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.

 

[Neogaia777]

Greek is and has always been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who better than the native Greek speaking EOB translators know the correct meaning of, e.g. “aionios” and “kolasis?”
Note, in the EOB, Paul uses “αιωνιως/aionios” and “αιδιος/aidios” as synonyms, see Rom 1:20 and 1 Tim 1:17, below.

The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.
1 Timothy 1:17 Now, to the eternal [των αιωνων/tōn aiōnōn] King. immortal. invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory unto ages of ages. Amen.
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf​

The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. If anyone chooses to consult the EOB version I suggest they read the preface which summarizes the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.

I'm a little confused, so does this mean your an annihilationist...? Or not, etc...? Or does this mean that you think there is a or any or either kind of hell and that they are eternal torment...? Or not...?

God Bless!

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Jesus of course, did not fail, if all are not saved. Because he was sent to save whosever will.

And as for the rest, the many - does Jesus just wave dismissively and say 'Depart from me'? Do not go past go, do not collect 200 kroner. You're cactus mate.

May I suggest the 'whosoever (sic) will' is in truth 'according to God's will', as Jesus followed His orders, not ours. And it's God's will that all be saved, that everyone come to a knowledge of the truth, mercy upon all, superabundant grace - the good news for whom? For all, of course.

Or do you say this is this mere puffery and hyperbole of the kind you might see in a Covid-19 official release?

 

[FineLinen]

I would love to believe like you and Fine linen that everyone including all the demons will be saved!

Welcome to the Father's Barnyard. In His Barnyard are His sheep & His goats. You likely have not met them yet, but His Barnyard has en's. Those little critters are the entire creation that ultimately bow in union with His Name & confess in union with His Name "You are Lord." The confession & worship is NOT by perfunctory genuflections but exactly the same as being IN/EN Christ.

Yup! His entire Barnyard reconciled by at-one-ment and the power of ta pante!

The heavens, earth & underworld.

 

[martymonster]

He (Jesus) tried to do the same thing that YHWH or the Holy Spirit tried to do in the OT, but the exact time, (cause I believe He succeeded), and fulfillment of it all, or all of it, etc, (is continually being fulfilled one thing at a time), but the complete full fulfillment of it all or all of it, etc, was (I believe) sealed for a future time and date, which is, was, and has always been, from even before the very beginning, in the Father's knowledge and knowing alone, from the very beginning, etc...

God Bless!

You lost me at "tried"
God does not "try" to do anything ....he just does it.
God never misses the mark, he achieves his aims, one hundred percent of the time. It is us who fail.

 

[Saint Steven]

THE PLAN OF THE AGES

Upon your table today there is or should be a book we call the Bible. This book alone reveals God's secret plan of the ages. It unfolds with unerring accuracy the mysteries of ages in the dim and misty past and points with unerring finger to the purpose of countless eons yet to come. The Christian Church as we know it has been living in a fool's paradise, propounding pet doctrines, ranting and raving about an endless eternity with golden streets and harps and white nightgowns for some and crackling, searing, tormenting flames for others, but almost completely overlooking God's wonderful PLAN OF THE AGES.

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

 

[Saint Steven]

Jesus of course, did not fail, if all are not saved. Because he was sent to save whosever will.

This is the crux of the debate.
1) On the one side Jesus came to be Savior of the world. (and succeeded)
2) On the other side he came ONLY to make salvation available to those who find out about it and respond "appropriately". (open to a wide spectrum of doctrinal opinion)

Option #2 is therefore a declaration that Christ did not come to be Savior of the world. Or a declaration that he did come to be the Savior of the world, but he failed miserably. Which answers the topic question.

Option #1 is at odds with either the claim that Christ did NOT come to be Savior of the world, or that if he did, he failed miserably. (the logical conclusion)

The bottom line
Any Damnationist that claims that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world has unwittingly declared him an eternal failure. The full population of a forever burning hell as witness to the fact. As a defense they claim that the inhabitants of the forever burning hell put themselves there willingly. Thus sweeping the whole business under the rug.

 

[martymonster]

Well you and J Preston Eby forget several things! First Jesus could never fail.

Second, you have no sscripture to show that after death men can repent. Only philosophy.

Third. God Himself put the caveat to be saved---believe!

Fourth you reject all the verses that show that portions of mankind suffer day and night with no rest for ever and ever!

Fifth: Please do not start the phony word games of forever! I proved to fine lined she was desperately wrong!

Mat 11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Mat 11:22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

What pray tell, is the significance of sackcloth and ashes? I mean, it's almost as if repentance and sackcloth and ashes, go hand in hand... and ashes have to do with burning.

Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Can you please explain how some servants are getting few stripes and others are getting many, what it actually means, and how it fits within the eternal torment doctrine?

Also, Christ likes word games ...he likes them very much. If you are not into word games, I'm afraid you have a snowballs chance in the lake of fire, of understanding anything he says.

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

If Christ is indeed running around trying to warn people about their impending doom, then wouldn't it be better if he spoke to them in language they could understand?

Seems a little callous, don't you think?

 

[Saint Steven]

If Christ is indeed running around trying to warn people about their impending doom, then wouldn't it be better if he spoke to them in language they could understand?

Thanks, Marty. Good point.

This raises many questions which Damnationism only compounds. Especially when coupled with predestination.

Damnationism declares that God chose who would be saved and who would be sent to eternal conscious torment. And then blames "the lost" for their failure to attain what was withheld from them all along. The "word games" then shift some of the blame to the Prophets, thus ignoring who put the prophecies in their mouths in the first place.

 

[renniks]

And as for the rest, the many - does Jesus just wave dismissively and say 'Depart from me'? Do not go past go, do not collect 200 kroner. You're cactus mate.

May I suggest the 'whosoever (sic) will' is in truth 'according to God's will', as Jesus followed His orders, not ours. And it's God's will that all be saved, that everyone come to a knowledge of the truth, mercy upon all, superabundant grace - the good news for whom? For all, of course.

Or do you say this is this mere puffery and hyperbole of the kind you might see in a Covid-19 official release?

I think you have created a dilemma where there isn't one. Jesus is the one who convinces me that hell is real and eternal. He talked about it more than anyone else.
I agree that the good news is for all, but good news must be believed and received in order to be good. The good news is bad news to those who would harden their hearts and scoff at God's grace.
Yes, he will say "Depart from me." That is biblical. If there's another chance after that, we aren't told about it, so it's an argument made from silence, which is less than convincing.

 

[renniks]

The bottom line
Any Damnationist that claims that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world has unwittingly declared him an eternal failure. The full population of a forever burning hell as witness to the fact. As a defense they claim that the inhabitants of the forever burning hell put themselves there willingly. Thus sweeping the whole business under the rug.

How is that sweeping it under the rug, when it's exactly what scripture indicates, that there will be a separation of the sheep and Gods by almighty God?
Christ is the savior of the world, but he is not a dictator who forces people to have allegiance to him. Without a choice, salvation becomes an obligation. An offer that can't be refused is no longer an offer, it's a necessity. That's not how God works. "Whosoever will. " means just that.

 

[martymonster]

Thanks, Marty. Good point.

This raises many questions which Damnationism only compounds. Especially when coupled with predestination.

Damnationism declares that God chose who would be saved and who would be sent to eternal conscious torment. And then blames "the lost" for their failure to attain what was withheld from them all along. The "word games" then shift some of the blame to the Prophets, thus ignoring who put the prophecies in their mouths in the first place.

Don't get to excited though, I've seen what happens when you show hellions these concepts ...Nothing! The pretend like they don't exist and just go on quoting verses they thing proves their point.

Deu 9:13 Furthermore the LORD spake unto me, saying, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

 

[Saint Steven]

Jesus is the one who convinces me that hell is real and eternal. He talked about it more than anyone else.

Part of our contention is that Jesus was misquoted in Bible translation. (translation bias) Which gets into the whole area of debate about the definition of "eternal punishment" in the Bible. Not to mention the way such exaggerated language is used elsewhere in scripture.

If (since) Jesus was misquoted, how does that effect the claims about hell? Is he not "warning" you about something for which he has the keys? (as the owner) And as owner, is he not responsible for his property? Too often this is presented as if God has no responsibility in this matter. The supposed "victims" are blamed for their lack of prevention. While at the same time condemned by God's predestination of them to destruction. None of this adds up.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I think you have created a dilemma where there isn't one.

Not so, the damnationist is locked on the horns of a dilemma, because he enthrones fallen man as the determinant of success of Jesus' mission. The gospel lives or dies with a person's response, an act of will. What happened to 'plant the seed and let God give the increase'?

Sorry sir, but the good news remains good whether a person likes it or not. It is absolutely positively good, not merely contingently and subjectively good (which wouldn't be any good at all).

The good news is bad news to those who would harden their hearts and scoff at God's grace.

Just cause they don't like the gospel, doesn't change its character. Man's eyes are veiled to the gospel by the devil, the world and sin.

Jesus is the one who convinces me that hell is real and eternal. He talked about it more than anyone else.

Jesus talks mainly of Gehenna and couple times Hades. Problem is, ppl make assumptions in concluding that it's all a damnation bbq by piecing together a 'doctrine of hell' from disparate scriptures where no such Biblical doctrine exists.

Y'see, Jesus IS salvation, that's his shem, and it's what he does from start to finish. Now surely that's pretty darn clear. Seen the Son seen the Father.

But why do ppl assume that salvation might not involve a chastising experience for the wicked? It's hard to surrender, to overcome, to put the 'old you' to death, as it were.

 

[Saint Steven]

How is that sweeping it under the rug, when it's exactly what scripture indicates, that there will be a separation of the sheep and Gods by almighty God?

Separation for what?
Corrective restoration is one thing, eternal destruction is another thing entirely.
Which of those two options fits the character of our loving heavenly Father?

Imagine being in the bliss of heaven for 1,000 years and then remembering you have family that has been burning this whole time. Swept under the rug.

 

[renniks]

If (since) Jesus was misquoted, how does that effect the claims about hell? Is he not "warning" you about something for which he has the keys? (as the owner) And as owner, is he not responsible for his property? Too often this is presented as if God has no responsibility in this matter. The supposed "victims" are blamed for their lack of prevention. While at the same time condemned by God's predestination of them to destruction. None of this adds up

I see no evidence that God predestines people to destruction. He knows who will refuse him, but that doesn't put the responsibility on him. People aren't his "property", they are free agents. God didn't create puppets.

 

[renniks]

Not so, the damnationist is locked on the horns of a dilemma, because he enthrones fallen man as the determinant of success of Jesus' mission. The gospel lives or dies with a person's response, an act of will. What happened to 'plant the seed and let God give the increase'?

Lol, take it up with God. He's the one who had it written down that man chooses his own damnation. Planting a seed doesn't negate the fact that a seed requires good soil to grow in. God does give the increase, but that increase isn't despite man's cooperation. Why do we tell people to "give their hearts to Jesus" if Jesus is a special forces soldier who rips the door off its hinges and drags their hearts out no matter what they do?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Lol, take it up with God. He's the one who had it written down that man chooses his own damnation.

I think death is the choice they made, perishing. It just got promoted somewhere along the way. So are you an ODAD believer lol (once damned always damned)?

Why do we tell people to "give their hearts to Jesus" if Jesus is a special forces soldier who rips the door off its hinges and drags their hearts out no matter what they do?

Jesus goes through hell and death to 'bring em back alive'. So his campaign is waged for the heart and soul by way of the sword of the spirit. The great fisher of men, and what's stronger - the winch that draws in the net or the little fishies darting hither and thither inside it? The ultimate result is inescapable.

 

[renniks]

The ultimate result is inescapable.

Not according to Jesus himself.

46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”