Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

LittleLambofJesus

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joshua 1 said:
The problem with trying to figure it out is that there is so much written about end times by so many people in the Bible. So there is an abundance of information available.
But 99.99% of it was in relation to 70 AD and the destruction of the Temple.
Yep.
The other .01% is just waiting on the final resurrection and white throne Judgement........

Statement of Purpose - Eschatology Forum Statement of Purpose

Partial Preterism: Partial preterism holds that most eschatological prophecies, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrists, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were fulfilled either in AD 70 or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero. The Second coming and the resurrection of the dead, however, have not yet occurred in the partial preterist system.[/quote]
 
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Adamina

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Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
But 99.99% of it was in relation to 70 AD and the destruction of the Temple.
I tend to agree.
Here are some other verses that go along with Luke's 70AD Jerusalem/Temple discourse, IMHO..

Luke 21:
23 Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the land and wrath against this people.
24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled<3961> underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


Revelation 11
:
1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary of God and the altar and those worshiping in him
2 and the Court outside of the Sanctuary be thou casting-out! out-side and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the nations
and the Holy City they shall be trampling forty two months

Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity
into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance and the faith of the Saints [Luke 21:24]

It appears that is also the fulfillment of Daniel 11 [the 1st century Jewish Wars?]
Daniel 11:33 And ones being intelligent of people, they shall cause many ones to understand, and they stumble in sword and in blaze, in captivity and in plunder days
[Luke 21:24 Revelation 13:10]
 
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JIMINZ

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Does Jesus physically and bodily reign on earth with Saints a 1000 yrs?

Yes, Jesus does come to earth and Reign with the Saints for 1,000 yrs.

But there is a qualifier to that.

The qualifier is, Jesus does not Reign with the entire Body of Christ, only those who are called the Elect Martyrs.

Rev 20:1-6
1) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 
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iamlamad

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The age we live in has many names. This is the Church age, the Holy Spirit Dispensation and also they call this: The times of the Gentiles. So the question is, when does the age we are in come to an end? For me that is easy because I am a dispensationist, so that means the age is 2,000 years in length. When did the age begin? On the day of Pentacost when Peter was preaching in the Upper room. That was 50 days after Passover when Jesus was sacrificed for our sin and transgression. Also at the time of Moses at the first passover when the Hebrew children left Egypt the law was given 50 days later at Mount Sinai. So the question then is, what year was Jesus crucified? I believe it was 29 ad. Then the question is: so what? The church is 2,000 years old. Should we order a cake and have a party? We are told that this is the end of the Time of the Gentiles and the beginning of the Kingdom Age. On December 6, 2017, US President Donald Trump announced the United States recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. Does this mean that Jerusalem is no longer being trampled underfoot by the Gentiles? Is there a 7 year tribulation period between the Church age and the Kingdom age? Are there people that teach this? There maybe people that believe that the Kingdom age, the 1000 year reign of Christ began on Dec 6, 2017.

Rev. 11:11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.


I am guessing that this is one verse you were thinking of? Notice that it has a specific time frame of 42 months. This does NOT relate to "the times of the Gentiles."

It is probably this verse:
Luke 21:24, “And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations; and Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”

What then is "the times of the Gentiles?" It certainly must relate in a political way as to who has control of Jerusalem. Israel lost in in 70 AD and regained in in 1967. It would seem then that the "times of the Gentiles" is over. Today Jews "trample" Jerusalem! I believe the times of the Gentiles is over. However, the fullness of the Gentiles has not yet arrived. I think the fullness of the Gentiles will be fulfilled when the pretrib rapture ends the church age.

The 42 months in Rev. 11:2 is referencing the last half of the 70th week of Daniel. The man of sin will arrive in Jerusalem just days before the midpoint, but will arrive with Gentile armies. They will trample the city.
 
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iamlamad

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Yes, Jesus does come to earth and Reign with the Saints for 1,000 yrs.

But there is a qualifier to that.

The qualifier is, Jesus does not Reign with the entire Body of Christ, only those who are called the Elect Martyrs.

Rev 20:1-6
1) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

I disagree: the "thrones" and the "they" that sat on thrones is probably speaking of the resurrected New and Old Testament saints.
 
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The Times of the Gentiles refers to the Church Age. The Trampling of Jerusalem by the Gentiles is only about the Beasts 42 month reign. Some people confuse the two so I put that out there. As per the timing, the Rapture will happen, then the 70thy week. If you are in the Rapture you will never know the 70th week troubles, so don't sweat it.


This is about the Day of the Lord or God's Wrath/the Lambs Wrath, not the Rapture per se which happens BEFORE the DOTL which happens when the First Seal is opened in the Middle of the week.


The Jewisahy 144,00 are never called witnesses, that a "MEN'S TRADITION" go find anywhere in Revelation that says they Preach, you can't, I used to buy that also, for 25 years. The 144,000 is a METAPHOR for the Fulness or ALL ISRAEL like Isaiah and Paul spoke of, not every Jew, but Israel as a Nation is saved. Thus the 144,000 is 12 x 12,000 {the number 12 = Fullness}. Zechariah 13:8-9 says that 1/3 of the Jews REPENT and 2/3 do not REPENT thus Perish, so that tells us this 144,000 is a metaphor for 2-3 million Jews in Israel or 5-6 million Jews worldwide. They Flee to Judea just before the Seals are opened, at the AoD which happens 30 days before the Beast Conquers Jerusalem at the 1260. {AoD = 1290}.

144,000 just means ALL ISRAEL who Repent. Those that God protects in the Wilderness, Rev. 12 calls these same people, The Woman.


The Marriage Supper is Armageddon, on earth. The Church is Raptured to Heaven and Marries the Lamb, then we RETURN for the Marriage Supper.
Sorry, RT, but I think you missed it here.

The "times of the Gentiles" IN CONTEXT refers to who politally own and occupies the city of Jerusalem. Israel lost in in 70 AD and got it back in 1967. The "times of the Gentiles" is over. Your theory is correct if it were the "fullness of the Gentiles." That ends with the rapture.

If you are in the Rapture you will never know the 70th week troubles, so don't sweat it.
Absolutely right! Good job!

which happens BEFORE the DOTL which happens when the First Seal is opened in the Middle of the week. Sorry, but you missed it here. Yes, the rapture happens JUST (a moment) before the Day of the Lord. I think the rapture will be the trigger for the start of the DAY. But the first seal was opened as soon as Jesus ascended back into heaven, as proven by Rev. chapter 5. The first seal is to represent the church sent out with the gospel.

Seals 2 through 4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel, to hold it in that 1/4 of the earth God allowed them to operate in.

Seal 5 is for the martyrs of the church age. Seal 6 begins the DAy of the Lord and His wrath.

The Jewisahy 144,00 are never called witnesses, that a "MEN'S TRADITION" go find anywhere in Revelation that says they Preach, you can't, I used to buy that also, for 25 years.
Hallelujah! RIGHT! You are the first person I have ever seen write this. They MAY be witnesses for Christ, but John does not tell us. No one should insist they are.

The 144,000 is a METAPHOR for the Fulness or ALL ISRAEL like Isaiah and Paul spoke of
No, cannot possibly be. They are called FIRSTfruits. That very title tells us the larger or main harvest of the descendants of Jacob will come later. Let's call them what John called them: 144,000 firstfruits of Israel's harvest.

They Flee to Judea just before the Seals are opened
Show us a scripture.

at the AoD which happens 30 days before the Beast Conquers Jerusalem at the 1260 This is a misunderstanding of the timing. The beast NEVER "conquers" Jerusalem. The Messiah comes before it is totally "conquered." First he will DECEIVE them and will make Jerusalem his headquarters for most of the last half of the week, deceiving the entire world from that city, but then will lead the armies of the world in trying to conquer Jerusalem. Of course he would succeed, except their Messiah comes and defeats the combined armies of the world.

The week is 2520 days long. The man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is the God of the Jews on day 1260. Armageddon will be well AFTER the last day of the week. (The week ends with the 7th vial.)

{AoD = 1290} No, the abomination will divide the week into two equal halves. John proves this by using 1260 days twice, and 42 months twice for the last half of the week. For the readers, the 1290 days as written in Daniel 12 is referencing an event that will take place AFTER the entire 70th week has ended; or after the last 1260 days. It will be some event 30 days after the week ends. It COULD be the cleansing of the temple. It COULD be the day Jesus descends to Armageddon. The marriage and supper may well be 30 days.

Rev. 12 calls these same people, The Woman. No, the woman is "Israel" from whom the Messiah came. Rev. 12:1-5 is about the birth of Christ and how Satan, the Dragon, tried to use King Herod to murder Jesus as a young boy. Consider these 5 verses to be a parenthesis. The next verse, verse 6, is only seconds after the man of sin declares he is God.

The Marriage Supper is Armageddon, on earth. This is MILES from the truth. The marriage supper is IN HEAVEN before John descends. Don't try to rearrange what John wrote. The dead bodies will indeed be food for the birds, but sorry, that is not in any way the marriage supper. Many people by now have been to heaven and returned to tell, and have SEEN the preparations for the supper: tables spread as far as the eye can see, with chairs with names on them! More recently people have seen this and were told that the preparations or all over: Heaven is now just awaiting the Bride.
 
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iamlamad

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The marriage supper of the Lamb takes place in Heaven. They are already making preparation for that. On the second coming He comes for His Bride and the third coming He returns with His Bride. As we are joint heirs with Christ.
Finally, TRUTH! It is like a breath of fresh air! Thanks, Joshua!
 
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iamlamad

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I have been told that during the tribulation period the "Jewish" nation will give a witness and testimoy for God in the world. 144,000 - 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes.
Sorry, but this is only human imagination, for there is no verse anywhere that tells us this. The 144,000 MAY be witnesses, but it is not written.
 
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iamlamad

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The times of gentiles will be complete (ends) when Jesus returns.

The time of the gentiles began when the gospel went to them and they will continue to get the gospel out until Christ returns.
Sorry, but that time is related to WHO controls Jerusalem. Read the context.
 
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Adamina

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Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
joshua 1 9 said:
The problem with trying to figure it out is that there is so much written about end times by so many people in the Bible. So there is an abundance of information available.
JIMINZ said:
But 99.99% of it was in relation to 70 AD and the destruction of the Temple.
This is of course myth. Most of it is prophecy about the future. STILL future to us today.
It was also future to the Apostles and the 1st century pre70AD Jews......

I can view the "end" in these verses as the 70ad destruction of Jerusalem, it's Temple and Priesthood as prophesied by Jesus and the Prophets in the OT.

Matthew 24:6 “And ye will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled;
for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mark 13:7 “But when you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be troubled;
for such things must happen, but the end is not yet.
Luke 21:9 “But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified;
for these things must come to pass first, but the end is not immediate.”
==========================
The utube vid below pretty much follows Josephus's acct of the Jewish Rebellion and trampling of Jerusalem in the 1st century for those interested:

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived............................

Vespasian, after proceeding as far as Jericho, returned to Caesarea, in order to make preparation for his grand attempt against Jerusalem. While he was thus employed, he received intelligence of the death of Nero; whereupon, not knowing what the will of the future emperor might be, he prudently resolved to suspend, for the present, the execution of his design. Thus the Almighty gave the Jews a second respite, which continued nearly two years ; but they repented not of their crimes, neither were they in the least degree reclaimed, but rather proceeded to acts of still greater enormity...............................

While Jerusalem was a prey to these ferocious and devouring factions, every part of Judea was scourged and laid waste by bands of robbers and murderers, who plundered the towns; and, in case of resistance, slew the inhabitants, not sparing either women or children. Simon, son of Gioras, the commander of one of these bands, at the head of forty thousand banditti, having with some difficulty entered Jerusalem, gave birth to a third faction, and the flame of civil discord blazed out again, with still more destructive fury. The three factions, rendered frantic by drunkenness, rage, and desperation, trampling on heaps of slain, fought against each other with brutal savageness and madness.
.......The Temple now presented little more than a heap of ruins............
Reve 14:8 And another Messenger, second-one follows saying "She falls, She falls, Babylon the Great,the out of the wine of the fury of the fornication of her she has given to drink all the nations".
Reve 18:19 “They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth! For in one hour she is made desolate.'
Invicta
726K subscribers
"The entire documentary on the Roman Siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
This massive battle is one of the most stunning of all antiquity. On display were impressive siege works and feats of bravery on both the Roman and Jewish sides as they fought mercilessly over every inch of Jerusalem.

Fighting would even make its way up the the inner sanctums of the Temple Mount and witness the destruction of the Second Temple."


 
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iamlamad

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Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

It was future to the Apostles and the 1st century pre70AD Jews......
I can view the "end" in these verses as the 70ad destruction of Jerusalem, it's Temple and Priesthood as prophesied by Jesus and the Prophets in the OT.

Matthew 24:6 “And ye will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled;
for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mark 13:7 “But when you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be troubled;
for such things must happen, but the end is not yet.
Luke 21:9 “But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified;
for these things must come to pass first, but the end is not immediate.”
==========================
An interesting site on that great 1st century biblical fulfillment:

Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."


CAST OF CHARACTERS: Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline

CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR

Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70
==========================
The utube vid below pretty much follows Josephus's acct of the Jewish Rebellion and trampling of Jerusalem in the 1st century for those interested:

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

Invicta
726K subscribers
"The entire documentary on the Roman Siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
This massive battle is one of the most stunning of all antiquity. On display were impressive siege works and feats of bravery on both the Roman and Jewish sides as they fought mercilessly over every inch of Jerusalem.

Fighting would even make its way up the the inner sanctums of the Temple Mount and witness the destruction of the Second Temple."


I can view the "end" in these verses as the 70ad destruction of Jerusalem

When the church age REALLY ends, all will know it. It will trigger the start of the Day of the Lord, and the wrath of God. And perhaps up to half of the people on the earth will suddenly disappear. It is not going to be unnoticed!

When the Jewish age ends, it will end with the 70th week of Daniel, which will include the 7 trumpet judgments and the 7 bowl judgments. Again, when these happen EVERYONE: 100% of those left alive will know the wrath of God came.

Does everyone today know that most of Revelation happened in 70 AD? No, in fact just the opposite: most think that much of Revelation is still future.

However, if you wish to believe that most of Revelation is history, you have that freedom. Just know you are in the VAST minority of believers today.
 
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parousia70

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I can view the "end" in these verses as the 70ad destruction of Jerusalem

When the church age REALLY ends, all will know it.

The Church is eternal, and lasts throughout ALL ages:
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
Ephesians 3:21

Does everyone today know that most of Revelation happened in 70 AD? No, in fact just the opposite: most think that much of Revelation is still future.

However, if you wish to believe that most of Revelation is history, you have that freedom. Just know you are in the VAST minority of believers today.

Demonstrably untrue. The notion that the events in Revelation are ALL or MOSLTY future to us is the relative newcomer on the block.

The Single Largest Christian Sect, the Catholics, Combined with their Anglican brothers and sisters, Hold a Partial Preterist/ Amil eschatology that places much of Revelation in the first century..

MOST Christians throughout History and today Hold the Partial Preterist/Amil View..
The Hyper Futurism you hold is the Minority view.
Always has been, Always will be.

However, as the Minority band of 12 Apostles teaches us, just because a certain view is held by a majority doesn't prove it correct.
 
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iamlamad

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The Church is eternal, and lasts throughout ALL ages:
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
Ephesians 3:21



Demonstrably untrue. The notion that the events in Revelation are ALL or MOSLTY future to us is the relative newcomer on the block.

The Single Largest Christian Sect, the Catholics, Combined with their Anglican brothers and sisters, Hold a Partial Preterist/ Amil eschatology that places much of Revelation in the first century..

MOST Christians throughout History and today Hold the Partial Preterist/Amil View..
The Hyper Futurism you hold is the Minority view.
Always has been, Always will be.

However, as the Minority band of 12 Apostles teaches us, just because a certain view is held by a majority doesn't prove it correct.
You really need to study 1 Thes. 4 & 5, and 1 Cor. 15. A HUGE change is coming to the body of Christ on earth: the church of today. We are going to be the first group (after Jesus as the firstfruits) to get resurrection bodies. Yes, CERTAINLY the church will continue on as resurrected saints. But what we have today as God with open arms saying "come" and be born again - this opportunity is going to END soon with the pretrib rapture of the church.

People can still "come" to God, but I don't think that anyone will be "born again" during the 70th week of Daniel - in our future. Of course you are free to disbelieve all this. After all, it will be no big thing to be left behind if this is true: right? Go ahead and think that if you wish!
 
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parousia70

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Yes, CERTAINLY the church will continue on as resurrected saints. But what we have today as God with open arms saying "come" and be born again - this opportunity is going to END soon with the pretrib rapture of the church.

People can still "come" to God, but I don't think that anyone will be "born again" during the 70th week of Daniel - in our future.

Then who are these people, on the new earth, being Called to "Come"?

Revelation 22:17
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come! And let him who hears say, Come! And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

This calling out takes place on the New Earth, from Inside the OPEN gates of the New Jerusalem, calling out to all who THIRST...and this calling out takes place AFTER the GWT Judgment...

Isaiah Testifies that The Lord will FOREVER Build His Church.

Isaiah 9:7a
Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end

You of course are free to disagree with Isaiah.

The Gospel, which sole purpose is to be "preached to sinners on earth"(Revelation 14:6) has no "use by" or "expiration" date. It is everlasting. It is given to always be preached to sinners on earth. Forever. There is no time prophesied where the Everlasting Gospel is to stop being preached to sinners. An end to the purpose of the everlasting Gospel simply doesn't exist.

Even in the New heavens and earth, the "final prophesied state" we see those inside the city calling out to those outside who thirst, to "come, drink freely of the water of Life" "the Gates of the city remain open forever to accept the wealth that the nations and kingdoms forever bring into her.

Scripture, quite frankly, teaches the Exact Opposite of what you are claiming.
 
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iamlamad

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Then who are these people, on the new earth, being Called to "Come"?

Revelation 22:17
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come! And let him who hears say, Come! And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

This calling out takes place on the New Earth, from Inside the OPEN gates of the New Jerusalem, calling out to all who THIRST...and this calling out takes place AFTER the GWT Judgment...

Isaiah Testifies that The Lord will FOREVER Build His Church.

Isaiah 9:7a
Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end

You of course are free to disagree with Isaiah.

The Gospel, which sole purpose is to be "preached to sinners on earth"(Revelation 14:6) has no "use by" or "expiration" date. It is everlasting. It is given to always be preached to sinners on earth. Forever. There is no time prophesied where the Everlasting Gospel is to stop being preached to sinners. An end to the purpose of the everlasting Gospel simply doesn't exist.

Even in the New heavens and earth, the "final prophesied state" we see those inside the city calling out to those outside who thirst, to "come, drink freely of the water of Life" "the Gates of the city remain open forever to accept the wealth that the nations and kingdoms forever bring into her.

Scripture, quite frankly, teaches the Exact Opposite of what you are claiming.
Where you missed it:

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly


Notice Jesus is saying "I come quickly..." Has He come yet? NO! This is church age. In other words, the VISION of future events IS OVER: it may still be part of the vision, but only to close the book. John is back to REAL TIME in the church age. Verse 17: the Holy Spirit and the bride of Christ are both saying to the lost: COME. Today salvation is open to "whosoever will!" In other words, the vision is over and TIME is back to 95 AD when John wrote these words.
Finally, verse 20 says "Surely I come quickly." He has not come. For John it was 95 AD. We are still in the church age. Sorry, but you missed it big time.

This calling out takes place on the New Earth Wrong. Notice, Jesus sent His angel to show John what to write. John is finishing up his book. OF COURSE Isaiah 9:7 is right. HE Is never ending and His reign is never ending. Today His reign is a spiritual one, but soon He will be on earth reigning.
 
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parousia70

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Notice Jesus is saying "I come quickly..." Has He come yet? NO!

So He Lied?

OF COURSE Isaiah 9:7 is right. HE Is never ending and His reign is never ending. Today His reign is a spiritual one, but soon He will be on earth reigning.

But that's not what Isaiah 9:7 says...
Rather it says THE INCREASE of His Government will never end.

The only way for His government to INCREASE forever is the NEVER ENDING addition to the number of those coming under and into His Government.

You are teaching the EXACT OPPOSITE. You are teaching that the INCREASE of His government will end one day.

When faced with choosing which of these two polar opposite teachings to accept as true and correct, that of God's Holy prophet Prophet Isaiah, or that of random internet guy lamad, I side with Isaiah. Every time.
 
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iamlamad

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So He Lied?

But that's not what Isaiah 9:7 says...
Rather it says THE INCREASE of His Government will never end.

The only way for His government to INCREASE forever is the NEVER ENDING addition to the number of those coming under and into His Government.

You are teaching the EXACT OPPOSITE. You are teaching that the INCREASE of His government will end one day.

When faced with choosing which of these two polar opposite teachings to accept as true and correct, that of God's Holy prophet Prophet Isaiah, or that of random internet guy lamad, I side with Isaiah. Every time.

Don't be silly! OF COURSE Jesus did not lie. If He came next week it would still be "quickly" to Him.

"Increase" can also mean "greatness" or abundance.

So you will form a doctrine from a single word? That is telling.
 
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Davy

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I have been told that during the tribulation period the "Jewish" nation will give a witness and testimoy for God in the world. 144,000 - 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes.

I strongly recommend you find another Church, one that doesn't teach the false 'fly away' pre-trib rapture theory, which is nowhere written in God's Word.

Don't expect our Heavenly Father to show you anything in His Word if you're going to listen to men's doctrines, and that fly away any moment doctrine definitely is a man-made doctrine.

There is no such idea as 'tribulation saints' written, that's made up by men. Those in Christ that are persecuted or delivered up to give a Testimony for Jesus at the end are CHRISTIANS belonging to Christ's Church. That means His Church had not gone anywhere. Jesus is still warning His Church that's on earth on the 6th Vial per Revelation 16:15. Think for yourself, asking our Heavenly Father and His Son for understanding.
 
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Adamina

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iamlamad said:
Notice Jesus is saying "I come quickly..." Has He come yet? NO!

OF COURSE Isaiah 9:7 is right. HE Is never ending and His reign is never ending. Today His reign is a spiritual one, but soon He will be on earth reigning.
parousia70 said:
So He Lied?
But that's not what Isaiah 9:7 says...
Rather it says THE INCREASE of His Government will never end.

The only way for His government to INCREASE forever is the NEVER ENDING addition to the number of those coming under and into His Government.

You are teaching the EXACT OPPOSITE. You are teaching that the INCREASE of His government will end one day.

When faced with choosing which of these two polar opposite teachings to accept as true and correct, that of God's Holy prophet Prophet Isaiah, or that of random internet guy lamad, I side with Isaiah. Every time.
Don't be silly! OF COURSE Jesus did not lie. If He came next week it would still be "quickly" to Him.
"Increase" can also mean "greatness" or abundance.
So you will form a doctrine from a single word? That is telling.
It would appear both of you are right concerning that verse according to a Hebrew lexicon/concordance:

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

4766 marbeh mar-beh' from 7235; properly, increasing; as noun, greatness, or (adverbially)
greatly:--great, increase. Occurs 2 times in 2 verses in the Hebrew concordance

NKJV
Isa 9:7
Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Isa 33:23
Your tackle is loosed, They could not strengthen their mast,
They could not spread the sail.
Then the prey of great/abundant plunder is divided; The lame take the prey.
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Isaiah 9:7 Commentaries:

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
7. The extension and consolidation of the Messiah’s rule.

Of the increase … end] Rather, For the increase of authority and for peace without end, &c. The final M (ם) in the original points to some uncertainty of text, which can also be traced in the translation of the LXX. It is thought by some to have arisen through dittography of the last two letters of Isaiah 9:6; Isaiah 9:7 would then begin “increased is authority.” But the Qěrê gives the better sense.
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Pulpit Commentary
Verse 7. - Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end. The Messiah's kingdom shall ever increase more and more; there shall be no limits to it; ultimately it shall fill the world (comp. Matthew 28:18, 19). The continual spread of Christianity tends to the accomplishment of this prophecy.
 
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