Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

iamlamad

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I strongly recommend you find another Church, one that doesn't teach the false 'fly away' pre-trib rapture theory, which is nowhere written in God's Word.

Don't expect our Heavenly Father to show you anything in His Word if you're going to listen to men's doctrines, and that fly away any moment doctrine definitely is a man-made doctrine.

There is no such idea as 'tribulation saints' written, that's made up by men. Those in Christ that are persecuted or delivered up to give a Testimony for Jesus at the end are CHRISTIANS belonging to Christ's Church. That means His Church had not gone anywhere. Jesus is still warning His Church that's on earth on the 6th Vial per Revelation 16:15. Think for yourself, asking our Heavenly Father and His Son for understanding.
I have to correct you yet again: the false 'fly away' pre-trib rapture theory,
that fly away any moment doctrine definitely is a man-made doctrine.

You could and should have said, "I can't find a pretrib rapture in the bible." Just because you can't find it does not mean it is not there. I and millions of others have found it. It Is written. Try reading 1 thes. 5 again. Understand that the great crowd, too large to number, is found in Rev. chapter 7, NOT in chapter 19 or 20.
There is no such idea as 'tribulation saints' written Again, you should have said "I can't find ...." First one must learn WHERE in Revelation "the tribulation" is found. Then if there are saints mentioned in those chapters, and astute bible student will put 2 and 2 together and KNOW there will be "saints" in the "tribulation."

Those in Christ that are persecuted or delivered up to give a Testimony for Jesus at the end are CHRISTIANS belonging to Christ's Church. That means His Church had not gone anywhere.
No, it only means that many who were left behind turned to God AFTER the pretrib rapture.

Your preconceptions are showing.
 
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iamlamad

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It would appear both of you are right concerning that verse according to a Hebrew lexicon/concordance:

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

4766 marbeh mar-beh' from 7235; properly, increasing; as noun, greatness, or (adverbially)
greatly:--great, increase. Occurs 2 times in 2 verses in the Hebrew concordance

NKJV
Isa 9:7
Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Isa 33:23
Your tackle is loosed, They could not strengthen their mast,
They could not spread the sail.
Then the prey of great/abundant plunder is divided; The lame take the prey.
==============
Isaiah 9:7 Commentaries:

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
7. The extension and consolidation of the Messiah’s rule.

Of the increase … end] Rather, For the increase of authority and for peace without end, &c. The final M (ם) in the original points to some uncertainty of text, which can also be traced in the translation of the LXX. It is thought by some to have arisen through dittography of the last two letters of Isaiah 9:6; Isaiah 9:7 would then begin “increased is authority.” But the Qěrê gives the better sense.
==================
Pulpit Commentary
Verse 7. - Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end. The Messiah's kingdom shall ever increase more and more; there shall be no limits to it; ultimately it shall fill the world (comp. Matthew 28:18, 19). The continual spread of Christianity tends to the accomplishment of this prophecy.
Thanks!
 
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JIMINZ

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I strongly recommend you find another Church, one that doesn't teach the false 'fly away' pre-trib rapture theory, which is nowhere written in God's Word.

Don't expect our Heavenly Father to show you anything in His Word if you're going to listen to men's doctrines, and that fly away any moment doctrine definitely is a man-made doctrine.

There is no such idea as 'tribulation saints' written, that's made up by men. Those in Christ that are persecuted or delivered up to give a Testimony for Jesus at the end are CHRISTIANS belonging to Christ's Church. That means His Church had not gone anywhere. Jesus is still warning His Church that's on earth on the 6th Vial per Revelation 16:15. Think for yourself, asking our Heavenly Father and His Son for understanding.

I'm not defending the position you are arguing against, I would not defend your position either because your both wrong.

Sounds like both of you are defending the positions your Denomination endorses, and those things which both of you have been taught.
 
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jgr

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I have to correct you yet again: the false 'fly away' pre-trib rapture theory,
that fly away any moment doctrine definitely is a man-made doctrine.

You could and should have said, "I can't find a pretrib rapture in the bible." Just because you can't find it does not mean it is not there. I and millions of others have found it. It Is written. Try reading 1 thes. 5 again. Understand that the great crowd, too large to number, is found in Rev. chapter 7, NOT in chapter 19 or 20.
There is no such idea as 'tribulation saints' written Again, you should have said "I can't find ...." First one must learn WHERE in Revelation "the tribulation" is found. Then if there are saints mentioned in those chapters, and astute bible student will put 2 and 2 together and KNOW there will be "saints" in the "tribulation."

Those in Christ that are persecuted or delivered up to give a Testimony for Jesus at the end are CHRISTIANS belonging to Christ's Church. That means His Church had not gone anywhere.
No, it only means that many who were left behind turned to God AFTER the pretrib rapture.

Your preconceptions are showing.

There is no pretrib rapture to be found in the historical true Christian Church before the 19th century.

It is a modernist dispensational fantasy and fallacy.
 
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Davy

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I have to correct you yet again: the false 'fly away' pre-trib rapture theory,
that fly away any moment doctrine definitely is a man-made doctrine.

You could and should have said, "I can't find a pretrib rapture in the bible." Just because you can't find it does not mean it is not there. I and millions of others have found it. It Is written. Try reading 1 thes. 5 again. Understand that the great crowd, too large to number, is found in Rev. chapter 7, NOT in chapter 19 or 20.


No, there is no Scripture teaching us that Christ's Church will be gathered BEFORE the tribulation. We are given 'direct' statements by our Lord Jesus that He gathers His Church AFTER the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27).

Here is a lesson for YOU on 1 Thessalonians 5, IF you will study it.

Before you get to the verse wrongly used by pre-trib that we are not appointed to God's wrath, you have to include the PREVIOUS 1-8 verses first...

1 Thess 5:1-9
5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


The times and the seasons is just a statement summing up the events leading to the end, and our Lord Jesus' return. Because they knew about those signs our Lord Jesus gave, it means they were already familiar with that "day of the Lord" from the Old Testament prophets.


That "day of the Lord" is what our Lord Jesus was referring to when He warned us to 'watch' concerning His coming (Matthew 24:42-43). I have found some on pre-trib wrongly trying to push the time for that "day of the Lord" back to before... the tribulation. God's Word nowhere does that, and certainly not here. The idea of the thief breaking in that Jesus gave is what Paul is here referring to.

3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.


When the wicked and deceived at the end say, "Peace and safety", that is when that "sudden destruction" upon them will happen. Paul is still referring to the OT prophets about the "day of the Lord". Per the OT prophets, that is the day when God rises up off His throne to punish the wicked on earth, causing that destruction upon the earth, and it is described as coming "at an instant suddenly" (Isaiah 29:5-6). That is the last day of this present world.


4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

That "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief" is not to take us by surprise like a thief breaking in at midnight. That's why Paul mentions about them knowing the times and the seasons leading up to Christ's return.


6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

There's Paul repeating our Lord Jesus' command to watch per His Olivet discourse. By the "as a thief" and this command to "watch", Paul linked the signs Jesus gave us in His Olivet discourse (Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21). But what does pre-trib teach instead? They try to teach that Christ's Olivet discourse isn't for His Church, which is a blatant lie.

No one knows the day nor hour, but we are supposed to be watching the signs of the end our Lord Jesus gave us, so as to not be deceived. That "Peace and safety" idea Paul gave is one of those signs for the end we are to notice; it is from the OT prophets about "the day of the Lord", the last day of this world. It links with our Lord Jesus' warning in Mark 13:7 that as long as we hear of wars and rumors of wars, then the 'end' is not yet, meaning the 'end' just prior to that sudden destruction will be a time of world peace (though a fake peace).

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

KJV

NOW... the Bible student can properly apply the what, when, where, who, etc. of that 9th verse about God's wrath. The 1-8 verses TIE to the timing of the when of that wrath, because Paul's subject is about the "day of the Lord" and God's "sudden destruction" upon the wicked when they say, "Peace and safety."

So it's very simple when one follows the actual 'flow' of the Scriptures, instead of just quoting a verse out of its chapter context and then applying some foreign idea to it. The result here is, that "day of the Lord" when that "sudden destruction" comes is what that "wrath" in verse 9 is about. Well, what wrath is that? It is this wrath... on the last day (Revelation 6:14-17; Revelation 11:15-18; Revelation 16:15-121.)
 
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Davy

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I have to correct you yet again: the false 'fly away' pre-trib rapture theory,
that fly away any moment doctrine definitely is a man-made doctrine.

You could and should have said, "I can't find a pretrib rapture in the bible." Just because you can't find it does not mean it is not there. I and millions of others have found it. It Is written. Try reading 1 thes. 5 again. Understand that the great crowd, too large to number, is found in Rev. chapter 7, NOT in chapter 19 or 20.

I've got things to do, so I'm not going to do your homework for you regarding the Revelation 7 events like I did with the 1 Thess.5 explanation. So here's a summary...

In Rev.7, there 2 groups described, the first are 144,000 of the children of Israel 'sealed' with God's sealing in prep for the tribulation, made up from both believing Jews and lost ten tribe Israelites. The other group is the "great multitude" that washed their robes and were sealed also, making their robes white in the Blood of The Lamb, having come out of great tribulation. The time view for the 2nd group is for AFTER Christ's return, which is why they are standing next to Him at God's throne and Millennial signs are given, like those living waters, with Him That sits on the throne dwelling among them.

BOTH groups suffered through the great tribulation. That is not about a pre-trib rapture. Just like the views in Rev.4 & 5 is not about a pre-trib rapture either, but instead are future forward views of AFTER Christ's return. The rewards (crowns) are not handed out to Christ's servants until the day of Jesus' 2nd coming. So ANY reference to rewards given automatically belongs to after Christ's return.
 
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Davy

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There is no such idea as 'tribulation saints' written Again, you should have said "I can't find ...." First one must learn WHERE in Revelation "the tribulation" is found. Then if there are saints mentioned in those chapters, and astute bible student will put 2 and 2 together and KNOW there will be "saints" in the "tribulation."


If there are saints mentioned going through trials and tribulations, it means Christ's Church is STILL here on earth.


How do you get around pre-trib's lie of more than one return of our Lord Jesus Christ when there is only ONE return written in Scripture??? There is NO Scripture evidence that shows Jesus returns twice.




 
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Davy

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Those in Christ that are persecuted or delivered up to give a Testimony for Jesus at the end are CHRISTIANS belonging to Christ's Church. That means His Church had not gone anywhere.
No, it only means that many who were left behind turned to God AFTER the pretrib rapture.

Oh but yes, those are... Christians who belonged to Christ Jesus BEFORE the tribulation starts.

In Jesus' Olivet discourse where He describes that delivering up to give a Testimony for Him by The Holy Spirit, He is giving His Church the main Signs of the end. Pre-trib lies and says He was not giving those signs to His Church. But how is it pre-trib will claim those Signs aren't for us, yet they will still use the Sign of His coming He gave in His Olivet discourse? They play 'pick and choose', and that's all you're doing, just repeating their pick and choose Scripture game, which is keep the Scripture that seems to fit their theory, and discard the rest that doesn't fit.
 
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Davy

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I'm not defending the position you are arguing against, I would not defend your position either because your both wrong.

Sounds like both of you are defending the positions your Denomination endorses, and those things which both of you have been taught.

Boy are you wrong.

I was raised in a mainstream Church system that dwells on ideas of Preterism. I do NOT adhere to their doctrines of men either. FYI, I am non-denominational. I stick to what God's Word teaches and let the chips fall where they may.
 
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iamlamad

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Oh but yes, those are... Christians who belonged to Christ Jesus BEFORE the tribulation starts.

In Jesus' Olivet discourse where He describes that delivering up to give a Testimony for Him by The Holy Spirit, He is giving His Church the main Signs of the end. Pre-trib lies and says He was not giving those signs to His Church. But how is it pre-trib will claim those Signs aren't for us, yet they will still use the Sign of His coming He gave in His Olivet discourse? They play 'pick and choose', and that's all you're doing, just repeating their pick and choose Scripture game, which is keep the Scripture that seems to fit their theory, and discard the rest that doesn't fit.
You are placing me with other pretribbers. I can't find any part of the Olivet discourse is pointed straight at the Gentile church of today. I rather see Jesus answering questions ask by Jews about the end of THEIR age. I refer to Paul for the rapture of the church.
 
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iamlamad

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If there are saints mentioned going through trials and tribulations, it means Christ's Church is STILL here on earth.


How do you get around pre-trib's lie of more than one return of our Lord Jesus Christ when there is only ONE return written in Scripture??? There is NO Scripture evidence that shows Jesus returns twice.
How do posttribers get around Paul's coming before wrath and the Matthew 24 coming that is after wrath? OF COURSE there is scriptural evidence. Preconceptions seem to blind people to what is obvious to others.
 
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iamlamad

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If false, should be easy to find evidence.

I can't find any.

Awaiting yours.
You are too funny! The problem is that you can't find what millions of other believers have found. Perhaps you are troubled by those pesky preconceived glasses. I suggest, take them off, wipe the slate clean, and start over with Paul on the rapture. Determine PAUL's timing before you move on.
 
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iamlamad

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Boy are you wrong.

I was raised in a mainstream Church system that dwells on ideas of Preterism. I do NOT adhere to their doctrines of men either. FYI, I am non-denominational. I stick to what God's Word teaches and let the chips fall where they may.
Ha! You were wise to leave!

I had to leave the church I was raised in too, but for other doctrinal problems.
 
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jgr

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You are too funny! The problem is that you can't find what millions of other believers have found. Perhaps you are troubled by those pesky preconceived glasses. I suggest, take them off, wipe the slate clean, and start over with Paul on the rapture. Determine PAUL's timing before you move on.

Awaiting your evidence proving my claim false.
 
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iamlamad

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Awaiting your evidence proving my claim false.
Evidence has been shown on these threads almost since the internet was created. You have missed every one. However, to make sure:

Paul mentioned the Day of the Lord, just 3 verses after his classic rapture verse of 1 thes. 4:17. He went on to prove that by showing that at the moment of the catching up, those left behind are caught in the sudden destruction wrath of God.

Was God angry a moment before? I can find no hint of that. I see His wrath beginning at the 6th seal when the DAY of His wrath begins.

This places PAUL's gathering just before the Day of the Lord or the Day of His wrath: different terms for the same event. John places the start of the DAy of the Lord at the 6th seal. Note carefully, at the 6th seal the BOOK has not yet been opened, and cannot be opened until the 7th seal is opened: then the book containing the 70th week will be opened and the final 7 years of the Jewish age will take place. Plain and simple: pretrib.

Paul further states that the rapture event will be at a time when people are saying "peace and safety." Sorry, but that is HIGHLY unlikely after the days of GT and just before Christ returns. It is far more likely to be a day like today. Most people in the world are not thinking WAR today.

As final proof, John SAW the raptured church in heaven right after the 6th seal as the great crowd too large to number (again before the 70th week begins). Stop and think: perhaps 40 to 50 generations of believers in one place at one time. It will be billions of people! It would have taken john around 32 years to count to one billion. This will be BY FAR the biggest crowd mentioned or seen in Revelation. It will be FAR more people that those beheaded (just a small part of one generation.)

In short, Paul was pretrib. Don't look for Paul's rapture of the Gentile church anywhere else. That would only bring confusion. ONLY PAUL received the revelation of the rapture of the church.

Did you not read in Daniel 9 that the 70 weeks was for Daniel's people - the Jews?
 
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jgr

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Evidence has been shown on these threads almost since the internet was created. You have missed every one. However, to make sure:

Paul mentioned the Day of the Lord, just 3 verses after his classic rapture verse of 1 thes. 4:17. He went on to prove that by showing that at the moment of the catching up, those left behind are caught in the sudden destruction wrath of God.

Was God angry a moment before? I can find no hint of that. I see His wrath beginning at the 6th seal when the DAY of His wrath begins.

This places PAUL's gathering just before the Day of the Lord or the Day of His wrath: different terms for the same event. John places the start of the DAy of the Lord at the 6th seal. Note carefully, at the 6th seal the BOOK has not yet been opened, and cannot be opened until the 7th seal is opened: then the book containing the 70th week will be opened and the final 7 years of the Jewish age will take place. Plain and simple: pretrib.

Paul further states that the rapture event will be at a time when people are saying "peace and safety." Sorry, but that is HIGHLY unlikely after the days of GT and just before Christ returns. It is far more likely to be a day like today. Most people in the world are not thinking WAR today.

As final proof, John SAW the raptured church in heaven right after the 6th seal as the great crowd too large to number (again before the 70th week begins). Stop and think: perhaps 40 to 50 generations of believers in one place at one time. It will be billions of people! It would have taken john around 32 years to count to one billion. This will be BY FAR the biggest crowd mentioned or seen in Revelation. It will be FAR more people that those beheaded (just a small part of one generation.)

In short, Paul was pretrib. Don't look for Paul's rapture of the Gentile church anywhere else. That would only bring confusion. ONLY PAUL received the revelation of the rapture of the church.

Did you not read in Daniel 9 that the 70 weeks was for Daniel's people - the Jews?

I'm looking for a Clement, or an Irenaeus, or a Tertullian, or a Wycliffe, or a Luther, or a Calvin, or any of their contemporaries of the historical true Christian Church.

I don't see any of them.

Thanks for confirming my claim.
 
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iamlamad

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I'm looking for a Clement, or an Irenaeus, or a Tertullian, or a Wycliffe, or a Luther, or a Calvin, or any of their contemporaries of the historical true Christian Church.

I don't see any of them.

Thanks for confirming my claim.
Thanks. You have explained yourself very well. In other words, you are not looking to the real source: the written word of God. I wonder if this is typical of all posttribbers?
 
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