Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

[jgr]

Thanks. You have explained yourself very well. In other words, you are not looking to the real source: the written word of God. I wonder if this is typical of all posttribbers?

So not one of the historical defenders of the true faith looked to the written Word of God?

What did they look to?

 

[jgr]

By the way, what is your written scriptural evidence for a posttrib rapture of the church? I am waiting....

John 16:33;Acts 14:22;Romans 5:3;Romans 8:35;Romans 12:12;
2 Corinthians 1:4;2 Corinthians 7:4;Ephesians 3:13;1 Thessalonians 3:4;
2 Thessalonians 1:4;Revelation 7:14

Every true believer experiences tribulation.

Their rapture comes later.

After their tribulation.

 

[Davy]

You are placing me with other pretribbers. I can't find any part of the Olivet discourse is pointed straight at the Gentile church of today. I rather see Jesus answering questions ask by Jews about the end of THEIR age. I refer to Paul for the rapture of the church.

There is NO SUCH THING as "the Gentile church". There is Christ's Church made up of both believing Israelites and Gentiles, and that is the ONLY New Testament Church mentioned.

The Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture is what Apostle Paul was teaching in 1 Thessalonians 4. But I realize that you don't really know what Apostle Paul taught there, as the pre-trib school tries to hide it.

 

[Davy]

How do posttribers get around Paul's coming before wrath and the Matthew 24 coming that is after wrath? OF COURSE there is scriptural evidence. Preconceptions seem to blind people to what is obvious to others.

I already explained what timing Paul was teaching in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-9, but you FAILED to read it.

There is NO Scriptural evidence for a pre-trib rapture of the Church.

1 Thess 4:16
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
KJV

You cannot use Paul's 1 Thess.4 Scripture for a pre-trib rapture, because Paul showed right there that Jesus comes when the "asleep" saints are raised from the dead! That will only happen on the last day of this world at the resurrection.

And I've already shown you cannot use the 1 Thess.5:9 verse for pre-trib rapture support, because the timing Paul showed for that is on the "day of the Lord", which also is the very last day of this present world.

This isn't about politics or campaign buttons. This is about what God's Word states as written. What I showed from Scripture is what is written. What you have shown is just musings from the doctrines of men.

 

[jgr]

Don't look for Paul's rapture of the Gentile church anywhere else.

Are you referring to this "Gentile church"?

"Data from the Pew Research Center that as of 2013, about 1.6 million adult Americans of Jewish background identify themselves as Christians, most are Protestant."

And that's just Americans.

Another dispensational fantasy and fallacy to promote and perpetuate its racialist dogma.

 

[iamlamad]

So not one of the historical defenders of the true faith looked to the written Word of God?

What did they look to?

As time has passed, knowledge of the end times has grown exponentially. We know MUCH MORE today that was known in Martin Luther's day. Have you not discovered this when studying the older commentators?

 

[iamlamad]

Are you referring to this "Gentile church"?

"Data from the Pew Research Center that as of 2013, about 1.6 million adult Americans of Jewish background identify themselves as Christians, most are Protestant."

And that's just Americans.

Another dispensational fantasy and fallacy to promote and perpetuate its racialist dogma.

Have you not read that when one is born again then in the spirit they are neither Jew nor Greek, but ONE with the Lord.

Just look around. Look at the Baptists - the many kinds - all the denominational church of today, and the Catholic church. The born again ones in all these churches are mostly Gentile physically. They make up the Gentile church of today. But at the same time, in the Spirit, they are all grafted into the Jewish tree.

Question: is your mother a Jew or Hebrew? If not, you are a Gentile. Most Gentiles know they are not Jews. This is not being racial; it is just truth. God has blinded Israel until the fullness of the Gentile have come in. That has not happened yet.

 

[iamlamad]

I already explained what timing Paul was teaching in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-9, but you FAILED to read it.

There is NO Scriptural evidence for a pre-trib rapture of the Church.

1 Thess 4:16
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
KJV

You cannot use Paul's 1 Thess.4 Scripture for a pre-trib rapture, because Paul showed right there that Jesus comes when the "asleep" saints are raised from the dead! That will only happen on the last day of this world at the resurrection.

And I've already shown you cannot use the 1 Thess.5:9 verse for pre-trib rapture support, because the timing Paul showed for that is on the "day of the Lord", which also is the very last day of this present world.

This isn't about politics or campaign buttons. This is about what God's Word states as written. What I showed from Scripture is what is written. What you have shown is just musings from the doctrines of men.

but you FAILED to read it. Of course I read it, but saw that it was only proof in YOUR mind, not anyone else's.

Paul showed right there that Jesus comes when the "asleep" saints are raised from the dead! That will only happen on the last day of this world at the resurrection. Sorry, but this is only imagination, not scripture correctly understood. Paul is clear that the rapture will come just before wrath. Can you find where Wrath begins in Revelation? I guess you just don't get it: the resurrection of the dead in Christ will happen PRETRIB. Believe it for it is truth.

Show us in Revelation where the Day of the Lord begins, if you can.
Show us WHY "That will only happen on the last day of this world " I don't believe this. Neither do I think it is what scripture is telling us.

 

[iamlamad]

There is NO SUCH THING as "the Gentile church". There is Christ's Church made up of both believing Israelites and Gentiles, and that is the ONLY New Testament Church mentioned.

The Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture is what Apostle Paul was teaching in 1 Thessalonians 4. But I realize that you don't really know what Apostle Paul taught there, as the pre-trib school tries to hide it.

The Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture is what Apostle Paul was teaching in 1 Thessalonians 4. Sorry, but this is myth. NO one EVER has proved this with scripture. It cannot be proven for it is not truth. Paul's rapture comes before the 70th week and before wrath. He tells us this. The gathering in the Olivet discourse comes after the 70th week is finished. These two gatherings will be over 7 years apart. One gathers from earth, while the other gathers from heaven and earth.

OF COURSE there is a Gentile church. I have gone to church all my life, many different churches, and all of them were filled with Gentiles. Did you not read where God put blindness on Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles have come in. If God calls us Gentiles, I think I can also.

Show us something from 1 Thes. 4 or 5 that shows a post trib rapture.

 

[iamlamad]

John 16:33;Acts 14:22;Romans 5:3;Romans 8:35;Romans 12:12;
2 Corinthians 1:4;2 Corinthians 7:4;Ephesians 3:13;1 Thessalonians 3:4;
2 Thessalonians 1:4;Revelation 7:14

Every true believer experiences tribulation.

Their rapture comes later.

After their tribulation.

How true, in this world, Christians have tribulation. This does not in any possible way prove a posttrib rapture. You amaze me. I don't know if you are just being "cute" are are really serious here. Most people use "the tribulation" or "the Trib" as in Post "trib" for the 70th week of Daniel. All you have shown is is your general, everyday tribulation. These verses have nothing to to with the 70th week of Daniel.

 

[jgr]

As time has passed, knowledge of the end times has grown exponentially. We know MUCH MORE today that was known in Martin Luther's day. Have you not discovered this when studying the older commentators?

The historical true Church believed that it would suffer under antichrists.

Does today's exponentially grown knowledge of the end times agree?

 

[jgr]

Have you not read that when one is born again then in the spirit they are neither Jew nor Greek, but ONE with the Lord.

Just look around. Look at the Baptists - the many kinds - all the denominational church of today, and the Catholic church. The born again ones in all these churches are mostly Gentile physically. They make up the Gentile church of today. But at the same time, in the Spirit, they are all grafted into the Jewish tree.

Question: is your mother a Jew or Hebrew? If not, you are a Gentile. Most Gentiles know they are not Jews. This is not being racial; it is just truth. God has blinded Israel until the fullness of the Gentile have come in. That has not happened yet.

As a result of natural dispersion and diffusion over more than 3,000 years, Abraham's genome is ubiquitous in the entire human race.

Genetics and mathematics concur.

So does the contemporary Jewish community, who acknowledge and applaud the reality.

Therefore, my mother, and your mother, and everyone's mother, and everyone else, is a Jew.

Through the same processes, everyone possesses Gentile genomes, and is a Gentile.

And in Christ and His Church, ethnicity is rendered irrelevant. (Romans 10:12;Galatians 3:28,29)

And dispensationalism's racialism is rendered null and void.

Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places
Jewish-Roots Arabs in Israel
Tracing the lost tribes to Jewish communities in Africa
Nigeria's Igbo Jews: 'Lost tribe' of Israel? - CNN
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity

 

[jgr]

How true, in this world, Christians have tribulation. This does not in any possible way prove a posttrib rapture. You amaze me. I don't know if you are just being "cute" are are really serious here. Most people use "the tribulation" or "the Trib" as in Post "trib" for the 70th week of Daniel. All you have shown is is your general, everyday tribulation. These verses have nothing to to with the 70th week of Daniel.

Do you consider the Scriptures I posted to be "cute"?

The historical true Church who suffered the tribulations they describe certainly didn't consider them to be "cute".

Daniel's 70th week began in AD27 and ended in AD34.

What tribulation occurred during that week?

 

[iamlamad]

The historical true Church believed that it would suffer under antichrists.

Does today's exponentially grown knowledge of the end times agree?

The Antichrist spirits were alive and well in John's day. Face it: we live in Satan's world. He is the god of this world. OF COURSE there will be tribulation and even martyrs. But "tribulation" is not God's wrath on the earth, or the Day of His wrath. This is what we can escape. God's escape plan is the pretrib rapture. If you wish to remain begins and suffer in God's wrath, that is your choice. But WHY try to convince others to follow you?

 

[iamlamad]

Do you consider the Scriptures I posted to be "cute"?

The historical true Church who suffered the tribulations they describe certainly didn't consider them to be "cute".

Daniel's 70th week began in AD27 and ended in AD34.

What tribulation occurred during that week?

No, your TAKE on the scriptures.
Daniel's 70th week is FUTURE. Period. Whatever happened then was NOT Daniel's 70th week. Case in point: the 7 trumpet judgments did not happen then, nore the 7 vials: these events happen during the REAL 70th week.

 

[iamlamad]

As a result of natural dispersion and diffusion over more than 3,000 years, Abraham's genome is ubiquitous in the entire human race.

Genetics and mathematics concur.

So does the contemporary Jewish community, who acknowledge and applaud the reality.

Therefore, my mother, and your mother, and everyone's mother, and everyone else, is a Jew.

Through the same processes, everyone possesses Gentile genomes, and is a Gentile.

And in Christ and His Church, ethnicity is rendered irrelevant. (Romans 10:12;Galatians 3:28,29)

And dispensationalism's racialism is rendered null and void.

Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places
Jewish-Roots Arabs in Israel
Tracing the lost tribes to Jewish communities in Africa
Nigeria's Igbo Jews: 'Lost tribe' of Israel? - CNN
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity

Sorry, but Abraham was ONE out of many. Even when considering all 12 tribes of Israel, they were FEW compared to the world's population. The math is against you. Most of the population of the world today is GENTILE, not Jew. Dream on, my friend. I will not change your mind.

 

[jgr]

The Antichrist spirits were alive and well in John's day. Face it: we live in Satan's world. He is the god of this world. OF COURSE there will be tribulation and even martyrs. But "tribulation" is not God's wrath on the earth, or the Day of His wrath. This is what we can escape. God's escape plan is the pretrib rapture. If you wish to remain begins and suffer in God's wrath, that is your choice. But WHY try to convince others to follow you?

Many antichrists were alive and well in John's day (1 John 2:18), and have always been since that time.

The historical true Church believed that the Church would suffer under antichrists.

And it did, and continues to do so.

With no pretrib rapture.

Which is why pretrib rapture is unseen, unsaid, and unknown in the prophetic annals of the historical true Church.

 

[jgr]

No, your TAKE on the scriptures.
Daniel's 70th week is FUTURE. Period. Whatever happened then was NOT Daniel's 70th week. Case in point: the 7 trumpet judgments did not happen then, nore the 7 vials: these events happen during the REAL 70th week.

How is AD27-34 future?

 

[jgr]

Sorry, but Abraham was ONE out of many. Even when considering all 12 tribes of Israel, they were FEW compared to the world's population. The math is against you. Most of the population of the world today is GENTILE, not Jew. Dream on, my friend. I will not change your mind.

Feel free to attempt to disprove the genetics and the math.

But be careful that you don't offend the Jews.

They're the ones providing most of the information that I've cited.

 

[iamlamad]

Many antichrists were alive and well in John's day (1 John 2:18), and have always been since that time.

The historical true Church believed that the Church would suffer under antichrists.

And it did, and continues to do so.

With no pretrib rapture.

Which is why pretrib rapture is unseen, unsaid, and unknown in the prophetic annals of the historical true Church.

That is your theory, but it won't fly. Early church writers wrote of the catching away before tribulation. Jgr, people have probably been disagreeing on this since Paul wrote of the rapture. Between his first and second letter to the Thes. someone was sure the day of the Lord had come, way back then!