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Atheists debates - is it worth it?

BigV

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Do you have a specific religion your considering or are part of?
Nope. I grew up in an Evangelical household and was a Fundamentalist until I was in my 30s. Now am an Atheist.
One thing I will say about my beliefs is that I'm not a fundamentalist.

What I find interesting, is that a Fundamentalist would tell you that you don't have the real thing then. That you are mistaken. Basically, the same arguments you would use to tell an Atheist they need to give religion a chance. Fundamentalists would tell you to do the same to the Fundamentalism.
 
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RBPerry

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Nope. I grew up in an Evangelical household and was a Fundamentalist until I was in my 30s. Now am an Atheist.


What I find interesting, is that a Fundamentalist would tell you that you don't have the real thing then. That you are mistaken. Basically, the same arguments you would use to tell an Atheist they need to give religion a chance. Fundamentalists would tell you to do the same to the Fundamentalism.

Growing up in a Christian home doesn't make you a Christian, so you have rejected what you were taught. Sounds like you have done the same thing I did. Is there division with Christian theology, we all know there is. As for me I can not consider the bible infallible for many reasons and that definitely separates me from fundamentalist beliefs. I refuse the throw the baby out with the bath water, once one studies from a spiritual perspective things begin to make sense.

As one person said, I have no knew evidence, and that is correct, it's all easily available is someone truly wants to know the truth, but most don't. Jesus gave the two greatest commandments, to love God and your neighbor as yourself. The core of Christianity is about love and getting out of self.
 
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BigV

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As one person said, I have no knew evidence, and that is correct, it's all easily available is someone truly wants to know the truth, but most don't. Jesus gave the two greatest commandments, to love God and your neighbor as yourself. The core of Christianity is about love and getting out of self.

I find it curious that the core of Christianity seems to be to divorce Jesus from the Old Testament. My reason for rejecting Christianity is realizing that Jesus' promises cannot be true. I want to only follow the truth, but Jesus' promises cannot be true, so I'm rejecting all of Jesus' teachings based on that.

For example, if Jesus' promise to answer prayer doesn't work, then Jesus' promise to save cannot be trusted either.

As far as growing up in a Christian home doesn't make you a Christian bit, that's what Fundamentalists believe too. And I was a Fundamentalist, as I mentioned.
 
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RBPerry

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I find it curious that the core of Christianity seems to be to divorce Jesus from the Old Testament. My reason for rejecting Christianity is realizing that Jesus' promises cannot be true. I want to only follow the truth, but Jesus' promises cannot be true, so I'm rejecting all of Jesus' teachings based on that.

For example, if Jesus' promise to answer prayer doesn't work, then Jesus' promise to save cannot be trusted either.

As far as growing up in a Christian home doesn't make you a Christian bit, that's what Fundamentalists believe too. And I was a Fundamentalist, as I mentioned.

Interesting perspective. Obviously I don't know what promises you are speaking of. Your comment about prayer I interpret as Jesus not answering prayers with the outcome you wanted. Many years ago my company went into a town called My Lai, I prayed what was about to happen wouldn't, the prayer wasn't answered the way I wanted, however I also wasn't a believer at that time so why would I expect my prayers to be answered. Too many want God to serve them, instead of them serving God. Most prayers are selfish and self serving. I have also seen many prayers answered in miraculous ways. If you expect Jesus to dance to your every whim, you will naturally be disappointed.
 
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BigV

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Interesting perspective. Obviously I don't know what promises you are speaking of. Your comment about prayer I interpret as Jesus not answering prayers with the outcome you wanted. Many years ago my company went into a town called My Lai, I prayed what was about to happen wouldn't, the prayer wasn't answered the way I wanted, however I also wasn't a believer at that time so why would I expect my prayers to be answered. Too many want God to serve them, instead of them serving God. Most prayers are selfish and self serving. I have also seen many prayers answered in miraculous ways. If you expect Jesus to dance to your every whim, you will naturally be disappointed.

Well, I have heard many excuses as to why Jesus' promises don't work as written in the Gospels. Yours is along the lines of those excuses. At the end of the day, those excuses work for anyone and anything. If you pray to me, I will answer your prayers in the same way as Jesus does, and I won't need to do anything.

Matthew 21:22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

Mark 11:24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Funny how the believers "interpret" those verses to mean the opposite of what they say.

Matthew 21:22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.” doesn't jive with "
If you expect Jesus to dance to your every whim, you will naturally be disappointed."

It doesn't appear (to me) that you are seeking the truth.
 
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jacks

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Well, I have heard many excuses as to why Jesus' promises don't work as written in the Gospels. Yours is along the lines of those excuses. At the end of the day, those excuses work for anyone and anything. If you pray to me, I will answer your prayers in the same way as Jesus does, and I won't need to do anything.

Matthew 21:22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

Mark 11:24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Funny how the believers "interpret" those verses to mean the opposite of what they say.

Matthew 21:22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.” doesn't jive with "
If you expect Jesus to dance to your every whim, you will naturally be disappointed."

It doesn't appear (to me) that you are seeking the truth.

I see your argument, but consider for a moment what chaos if God answered all prayers. On the one hand it would be heaven. Everyone would live forever, there would be no war, sickness or stife in any form. On the other hand what about prayers of vengeance or hatred, would they be answered too? How about prayers that go against what is good for all or a divine plan? I don't think humans have the ultimate knowledge or perspective to get everything they want, whenever they want it. Wouldn't you say it is only fitting that prayers are answered in a manner that takes all of humanity and all of the consequences of the prayer into account? In other words could we really be trusted with unlimited power?
 
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Dirk1540

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Atheist come in many varieties just as Christians do. What so many theists do in their attempt to debate with atheist is to convince them of the accuracy of the bible, and that is generally a waste of time. Many atheists are well versed in the bible, they may have been raised in the Christian home and taught Christian principles and then walked away. The issue isn’t why they are atheists but understanding that since they believe there is no god, they generally believe that there is no existence outside of the physical existence that we the living are part of.

It is like attempting to tell someone what clean air looks like, you can not debate spiritual issues with physical examples it normally doesn’t work unless they are on their death bed, then at times they become receptive to the idea of a spiritual existence outside of the physical body.

Those of us that have been around a lot of death can tell when the spirit leaves the body, and many times it does before the physical body is clinically dead. What do I mean by clinically dead, a flat line EEG, meaning the brain is dead. Personally, I believe once the frontal lobe has ceased to function that is normally physical death. The first thing you will hear from the skeptical side of this is the dying brain theory and that has been debunked in my opinion.

Almost every Christian I know has had a come to Jesus experience in their lives, it may not have been traumatic or earth shaking, but the Holy Spirit gave them the spiritual insight and the faith to believe in God. Many have had that experience and still walked away for whatever reason.

Some of the most profound experiences is commonly referred to as near death experiences. Some truly are near death, but many were clinically dead long enough to dispel the dying brain theory. Along with many of these testimonies are subjective, meaning the individuals testimony can’t be substantiated, they may be true, but the lack of scientific or medical evidence to support their stories leave them questionable.

At one time I would waste considerable time attempting to debate atheists and finally realized it was a waste of time. If a person is closed minded to any subject, then there is no room for debate or evaluation of evidence or beliefs.

If a person is an agnostic and willing to make an honest evaluation of Christianity, then you have someone you can have a meaningful dialog with. Again, they must first understand that the spirit and the physical body are separate, the spirit is who you really are, and your body is just the shell that the spirit functions through while the body is alive.

I had one very meaningful relationship with an atheist and as stated above, all my arguments were a waste of time. I left him with this, “If you ever want to know if there is a God, ask Him to reveal himself to you, give a come to Jesus moment. Two years later he looked me up, his comment was interesting, “You made me so angry, I didn’t want to even consider a god, but I had a come to Jesus moment, and I now know the truth.”

The other side is I gave a friend the book “Evidence that demands a verdict”, and “A case for Christ”. He read both and a few weeks later we had lunch, I asked him about both books. His comment was “Very compelling evidence that I find very difficult to dispute, however I still don’t believe.” He is a law professor, and we remained friends until his death a few years ago. That convinced me that with some people no matter the evidence, they will refuse to believe. I think with some people it is a sin they hold onto and will refuse to let go of that blinds them to the reality of God, but that is just my opinion.

It is interesting that many atheists that had death experiences and returned are no longer atheists and were given another chance in life. Obviously, God seen some redeeming qualities in the person, and that is understandable because I know many non-believers that are wonderful people.

Remember Jesus instructions to the disciples, they were told to go into a town, share the gospel, if it was rejected wipe the dust off their feet and move on. My point to all of is why waste a great deal of time with someone that is just looking for an argument, with little or no desire to know the truth?
It’s worth it if both people involved enjoy debate. If either person thinks it’s stressful or annoying then it’s not worth it. I used to like it, now I can’t stand it lol
 
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I see your argument, but consider for a moment what chaos if God answered all prayers. On the one hand it would be heaven. Everyone would live forever, there would be no war, sickness or stife in any form. On the other hand what about prayers of vengeance or hatred, would they be answered too? How about prayers that go against what is good for all or a divine plan? I don't think humans have the ultimate knowledge or perspective to get everything they want, whenever they want it. Wouldn't you say it is only fitting that prayers are answered in a manner that takes all of humanity and all of the consequences of the prayer into account? In other words could we really be trusted with unlimited power?
That makes perfect sense. But it's not what the Bible says. The Bible says, ask, and your prayer will be answered - and the answer will be what you ask for.
 
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RBPerry

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Well, I have heard many excuses as to why Jesus' promises don't work as written in the Gospels. Yours is along the lines of those excuses. At the end of the day, those excuses work for anyone and anything. If you pray to me, I will answer your prayers in the same way as Jesus does, and I won't need to do anything.

Matthew 21:22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

This is the problem with pulling a passage out of the bible without looking at the entire passage. Who was Jesus talking to? He was talking to his disciples, it wasn't a blanket statement, otherwise I would agree with you. Look at the Lords prayer, Jesus said "let thy will be done" He didn't say let my will be done. He prayed that his fathers will.
 
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BigV

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He was talking to his disciples, it wasn't a blanket statement, otherwise I would agree with you

Ah, but here is when the situation gets murky, IF you care for the truth.

Everything Jesus said, was said to the disciples, or the people living in the 1st Century Palestine. And, there is nothing in Jesus' promise that was limited only to the disciples. You go on citing the Lord's prayer, but that too was taught only to the disciples!

Notice Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Besides, there is a 'whosoever' believes promise of John 14:12

Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

I have argued with Christians on these forums who find a way to make exceptions for this verse. I'd say it's a very strange behavior for people claiming to want to know the truth!
 
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BigV

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I see your argument, but consider for a moment what chaos if God answered all prayers. On the one hand it would be heaven. Everyone would live forever, there would be no war, sickness or stife in any form. On the other hand what about prayers of vengeance or hatred, would they be answered too? How about prayers that go against what is good for all or a divine plan? I don't think humans have the ultimate knowledge or perspective to get everything they want, whenever they want it. Wouldn't you say it is only fitting that prayers are answered in a manner that takes all of humanity and all of the consequences of the prayer into account? In other words could we really be trusted with unlimited power?

Well, I don't think Jesus made the promise under duress. He didn't have to make the promise to answer prayer. In Matthew 17, Jesus said that even the faith of a mustard seed size will move mountains and nothing will be impossible. Think about it! Teleportation, regrowing of limbs, curing Down's syndrome, etc.... nothing will be impossible! Universal healthcare, giving everyone in the world $1Trillion, etc..

You ask good questions, but, lets think about it. Why didn't Jesus think of those same questions when he made the promises?
 
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jacks

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Well, I don't think Jesus made the promise under duress. He didn't have to make the promise to answer prayer. In Matthew 17, Jesus said that even the faith of a mustard seed size will move mountains and nothing will be impossible. Think about it! Teleportation, regrowing of limbs, curing Down's syndrome, etc.... nothing will be impossible! Universal healthcare, giving everyone in the world $1Trillion, etc..

You ask good questions, but, lets think about it. Why didn't Jesus think of those same questions when he made the promises?

Yes, it would be great if everything we hoped for happened, but then who would win the Super Bowl!?
I'm confident Jesus was well aware of the implications of giving everyone in the world unlimited power, that is why He didn't do it. As far as individual verses, you will have to ask someone else. Remember only about 24% of Americans believe every part of the Bible is the literal word of God. Although about 50% believe it is the inspired Word. HERE The rest of Christians have varying beliefs on the Bible's scientific and historical accuracy. When I look at the history of Christianity and interpretations, I see no major group claiming that everything you pray for will be answered in the manner you expect or are they troubled by the fact the mountain didn't move.

Remember:
You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometimes you just might find
You just might find
You get what you need. :)
 
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drich0150

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1 it depends on the person.

2 depends on your reasoning. I find stone also sharpens iron.

The often bring up points and ask question I would never myself ask and thus in the process know more about and come to appreciate God the bible even more.
 
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BigV

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Yes, it would be great if everything we hoped for happened, but then who would win the Super Bowl!?
I'm confident Jesus was well aware of the implications of giving everyone in the world unlimited power, that is why He didn't do it. As far as individual verses, you will have to ask someone else. Remember only about 24% of Americans believe every part of the Bible is the literal word of God. Although about 50% believe it is the inspired Word. HERE The rest of Christians have varying beliefs on the Bible's scientific and historical accuracy. When I look at the history of Christianity and interpretations, I see no major group claiming that everything you pray for will be answered in the manner you expect or are they troubled by the fact the mountain didn't move.

remember, bottom line is, I'm interested in the truth. Whenever Christians start picking and choosing, I conclude that they are not interested in the truth, but only in making peace with their religion. Considering they are not really challenging the 'eternal life' promises. Why are they so sure of their 'salvation' when they need to explain away so many promises that apply to here and now?

Remember:
You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometimes you just might find
You just might find
You get what you need. :)

Well, there is nothing supernatural about that! I know promises of Jesus can't be trusted because I can make the same promises and they will work the same as they do for Jesus, IF you are willing to use the same excuses.
 
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BigV

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plus if the faith can not be defended it will be abandoned.

Don't be so sure. It will be modified and revised before it will be abandoned. I think it depends on the initial commitment. In some cases, the belief will become even stronger.

When Prophecy Fails - Wikipedia

Festinger stated that five conditions must be present if someone is to become a more fervent believer after a failure or disconfirmation:

A belief must be held with deep conviction and it must have some relevance to action, that is, to what the believer does or how he or she behaves.
The person holding the belief must have committed himself to it; that is, for the sake of his belief, he must have taken some important action that is difficult to undo. In general, the more important such actions are, and the more difficult they are to undo, the greater is the individual's commitment to the belief.
The belief must be sufficiently specific and sufficiently concerned with the real world so that events may unequivocally refute the belief.
Such undeniable disconfirmatory evidence must occur and must be recognized by the individual holding the belief.
The individual believer must have social support. It is unlikely that one isolated believer could withstand the kind of disconfirming evidence that has been specified. If, however, the believer is a member of a group of convinced persons who can support one another, the belief may be maintained and the believers may attempt to proselytize or persuade nonmembers that the belief is correct.
 
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jacks

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remember, bottom line is, I'm interested in the truth.

Just keep asking questions (with an open mind) and eventually you will find the truth. BTW I don't mean just you, this applies to everyone.


Well, there is nothing supernatural about that! I know promises of Jesus can't be trusted because I can make the same promises and they will work the same as they do for Jesus, IF you are willing to use the same excuses.

Hey if you can't believe the Rolling Stones, who can you believe?
 
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BigV

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Just keep asking questions (with an open mind) and eventually you will find the truth. BTW I don't mean just you, this applies to everyone.

Why does the suggestion only apply to Atheists here? How can the Bible be true if it has information that is objectively false? To make it 'true', I need to explain away the passages to a point where they end up meaning something other than what they actually say!

In what universe is this an honest treatment of the text? And how in the world does it make one get to the truth?
 
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jacks

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Why does the suggestion only apply to Atheists here?

Hmmm... I didn't say it only applies to Atheists. I never even used the word atheist and certainly didn't mean to imply that. As to the remainder of your questions on the inerrancy of the Bible, I addressed that in previous posts, though obviously not to your satisfaction.
Also out of respect to the original OP, I think we are running pretty far afield. My response to that is yes, atheist debates are worthwhile as long as they remain respectful. In fact I'd say they are essential. What do you think?
 
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BigV

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In fact I'd say they are essential. What do you think?
Why are they essential? I think of them as a hobby. I hone in my skills online for better conversations with my believing family. I suspect each Atheist here has their own reasons for being here.
 
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