Atheists debates - is it worth it?

[Silmarien]

And BTW, have you ever thought about how you became a Christian? How can you possibly know if it was really your free will choice, or if it was God directing you subconsciously?

I would hazard a guess that most Christians actually do believe that God was directing them subconsciously to a certain degree. John 14:6 would certainly imply as much, and all major denominations would hold that faith is a gift from God and not something that you can produce entirely of your own accord. Few would hold that this conflicts with free will, though.

You're welcome to be a weird sort of reverse Calvinist if you so desire, but it's odd to just declare that Calvinism is the logical conclusion to divine sovereignty when people have been arguing back and forth about that for 2000 years, and then build a philosophy around it as if it were an unassailable truth rather than a highly controversial and disputed theological idea. It would be like a theist declaring that a particular version of atheism couldn't be true, and that therefore a bunch of things had to follow that wouldn't if their understanding of atheism weren't so narrow in the first place.

 

[RBPerry]

But I'll say the same thing about Allah. If Allah exists, and wants me as a believer, then he will arrange it that I become a Muslim. As you must know, there is a version of Christianity which believes that God has already chosen who will believe and be saved, and who will not. And that's the logical conclusion if God is sovereign. If I ever believe in a supreme being, it will take an act of that supreme being. But until then, it would be dishonest to say I believe in any god when I really have overwhelming doubts. As Shakespeare wrote: "This above all. To thine own self be true."

And BTW, have you ever thought about how you became a Christian? How can you possibly know if it was really your free will choice, or if it was God directing you subconsciously?

What you do not understand is Allah is a reference to the same God we Christians worship. Most of the Muslims beliefs come from our old testament. What the radical Muslims have done is distort what Mohammad taught to the point it doesn't come close to the original Muslim faith.

Shakespeare, what is the rest of his statement, I see you left that out. It is kind of like some Christians have been guilty of, picking part a statement, but leaving the real context out. "take care not to deceive yourself"

 

[RBPerry]

I would hazard a guess that most Christians actually do believe that God was directing them subconsciously to a certain degree. John 14:6 would certainly imply as much, and all major denominations would hold that faith is a gift from God and not something that you can produce entirely of your own accord. Few would hold that this conflicts with free will, though.

You're welcome to be a weird sort of reverse Calvinist if you so desire, but it's odd to just declare that Calvinism is the logical conclusion to divine sovereignty when people have been arguing back and forth about that for 2000 years, and then build a philosophy around it as if it were an unassailable truth rather than a highly controversial and disputed theological idea. It would be like a theist declaring that a particular version of atheism couldn't be true, and that therefore a bunch of things had to follow that wouldn't if their understanding of atheism weren't so narrow in the first place.

Good points, and I love your reverse Calvinist comment. You are correct there are many theological questions that most seminary professors love dividing people with, and this is exactly what many of those debates do, the result being fueling atheistic arguments with divisions that have nothing to do with a relationship with Christ.

 

[jayem]

Shakespeare, what is the rest of his statement, I see you left that out. It is kind of like some Christians have been guilty of, picking part a statement, but leaving the real context out. "take care not to deceive yourself"

This is the rest of the speech:

“This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.
Farewell, my blessing season this in thee!”

Polonius's advice to his son is indeed to know yourself, and to be honest. Then you won't deceive yourself or others. And that's exactly the meaning I intended to convey. I know that I cannot honestly believe something that to me is so logically contradictory. I suspect we can agree that all belief ultimately comes down to faith. Didn't Paul write that you walk by faith, not by sight? One must accept Jesus on faith. Which numerous bible verses say (or strongly imply) is a gift. I haven't received that gift. And that's the honest-to-God truth.

 

[BigV]

Where did you get your magical mind reading powers from?

The same place where all Gods get them from.

 

[Silmarien]

The same place where all Gods get them from.

You're omniscient? Neat trick.

 

[RBPerry]

This is the rest of the speech:

“This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.
Farewell, my blessing season this in thee!”

Polonius's advice to his son is indeed to know yourself, and to be honest. Then you won't deceive yourself or others. And that's exactly the meaning I intended to convey. I know that I cannot honestly believe something that to me is so logically contradictory. I suspect we can agree that all belief ultimately comes down to faith. Didn't Paul write that you walk by faith, not by sight? One must accept Jesus on faith. Which numerous bible verses say (or strongly imply) is a gift. I haven't received that gift. And that's the honest-to-God truth.

I did understand your point, I just didn't remember exact wording, thanks for posting. Yes Christianity requires faith, however I couldn't accept it through blind faith. Many like myself had to do a lot of digging and evaluating before coming to a faith in Christ, and it wasn't easy for me. Then I had a few experiences in my life that left no doubt that God is real and Jesus Christ is His son. The question should be, are you willing to consider there is a God, and that his son is Jesus Christ? In our world today truth is something that is very hard to find at times.

 

[Ophiolite]

What baffles me at times is why would someone that has no belief in God get on a Christian forum to debate the subject unless somewhere in their mind they are attempting to reconcile or justify their beliefs, or possible consider we are right all along.

Perhaps my list of reasons for being on CF may de-baffle you. Feel free to ask for clarification of any point. These are not in order of importance, but just as they occurred to me today. Nor is the list necessarily comprehensive. I've posted similar lists three or four times before and I doubt any of them are the same.

• I like forums
• I wish to expose myself to those with different worldviews in order to
  • Better understand the reasons for their beliefs
  • Identify the strengths and weaknesses in their arguments
  • Check my own viewpoints for validity
• Since most of my time is spent in the Physical & Life Science sub-forums I expect to learn something new there.
• In the same arena I expect to deepen my own understanding of scientific issues by explaining or debating issues with fellow members
• I test out the occasional joke with the vague notion that one day I might try stand-up
• Given that I find some of the views expressed by certain members so deeply ignorant and offensive that it gives me an opportunity to practice anger management.
• I can practice my writing skills, seeking to get my message across clearly, concisely and comprehensively.

Note: Since I don't rule out the possibility that there is some kind of God I am registered here as agnostic. However, in relation to Vishnu, Yaweh, Allah, Zeus, Ra, or any God, or god named by humans, I am wholly atheistic.

 

[jacks]

Such noble motivations! And to think I just come here for the entertainment value.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Atheist come in many varieties just as Christians do. What so many theists do in their attempt to debate with atheist is to convince them of the accuracy of the bible, and that is generally a waste of time. Many atheists are well versed in the bible, they may have been raised in the Christian home and taught Christian principles and then walked away.

So far, so good.

The issue isn’t why they are atheists but understanding that since they believe there is no god,

Huh? We don't believe there is a god, but that doesn't mean we believe there is no god.

they generally believe that there is no existence outside of the physical existence that we the living are part of.

Again... huh? Why can there not be other universes?

It is like attempting to tell someone what clean air looks like, you can not debate spiritual issues with physical examples it normally doesn’t work unless they are on their death bed, then at times they become receptive to the idea of a spiritual existence outside of the physical body.

It is pretty disgusting and predatory to prey upon those who are on their deathbed. Very shameful behavior. Instead, consider telling them that God most likely does not exist and that heaven and hell are made up. This way they can die in peace and with their dignity, instead of grovelling before your favorite deity out of terror.

Those of us that have been around a lot of death can tell when the spirit leaves the body, and many times it does before the physical body is clinically dead. What do I mean by clinically dead, a flat line EEG, meaning the brain is dead. Personally, I believe once the frontal lobe has ceased to function that is normally physical death. The first thing you will hear from the skeptical side of this is the dying brain theory and that has been debunked in my opinion.

Most atheists are not doctors. I'm not one. Are you?

I don't know when exactly a person dies, or if that is even a sensible question. As far as I understand it, death is a process. Not a light switch that goes from on to off.

Almost every Christian I know has had a come to Jesus experience in their lives, it may not have been traumatic or earth shaking, but the Holy Spirit gave them the spiritual insight and the faith to believe in God. Many have had that experience and still walked away for whatever reason.

I don't experience delusions. I do need legitimate arguments or evidence to convince me of the existence of God.

Some of the most profound experiences is commonly referred to as near death experiences. Some truly are near death, but many were clinically dead long enough to dispel the dying brain theory. Along with many of these testimonies are subjective, meaning the individuals testimony can’t be substantiated, they may be true, but the lack of scientific or medical evidence to support their stories leave them questionable.

I know of at least one person who converted to atheism because their near-death experience was nothingness.

At one time I would waste considerable time attempting to debate atheists and finally realized it was a waste of time. If a person is closed minded to any subject, then there is no room for debate or evaluation of evidence or beliefs.

Actually, it's you who is closed minded. How is that not obvious? You said yourself that most atheists are former Christians. That means we were persuaded and we changed our minds. Most Christians were indoctrinated into their religion from birth. You're the one who won't change his mind. No matter what I or any atheist says, you will remain a Christian because you're brainwashed.

If a person is an agnostic and willing to make an honest evaluation of Christianity, then you have someone you can have a meaningful dialog with.

I think that a person's level of intelligence and knowledge on the subject is more important. You don't seem to actually grasp what atheism and agnosticism are. You've clearly never talked to an atheist and actually listened to what they had to say because otherwise you'd know that most atheists describe themselves as agnostic atheists who do not believe in God but who also don't believe that God doesn't exist.

Again, they must first understand that the spirit and the physical body are separate, the spirit is who you really are, and your body is just the shell that the spirit functions through while the body is alive.

So... do you self-identify as an immortal entity awaiting reincarnation on another planet?

Immortality: John 3:16.

Reincarnation: 1 Corinthians 15:35-38.

Exoplanet: Revelation 21:1.

I had one very meaningful relationship with an atheist and as stated above, all my arguments were a waste of time.

They were probably a waste of time because you wouldn't LISTEN! You don't even know what atheism is!

I left him with this, “If you ever want to know if there is a God, ask Him to reveal himself to you, give a come to Jesus moment. Two years later he looked me up, his comment was interesting, “You made me so angry, I didn’t want to even consider a god, but I had a come to Jesus moment, and I now know the truth.”

Spoiler

The other side is I gave a friend the book “Evidence that demands a verdict”, and “A case for Christ”. He read both and a few weeks later we had lunch, I asked him about both books. His comment was “Very compelling evidence that I find very difficult to dispute, however I still don’t believe.” He is a law professor, and we remained friends until his death a few years ago. That convinced me that with some people no matter the evidence, they will refuse to believe. I think with some people it is a sin they hold onto and will refuse to let go of that blinds them to the reality of God, but that is just my opinion.

At least this meme is more fresh, I suppose. But I also doubt that this occurred.

It is interesting that many atheists that had death experiences and returned are no longer atheists and were given another chance in life. Obviously, God seen some redeeming qualities in the person, and that is understandable because I know many non-believers that are wonderful people.

And what of the converse, as I mentioned?

Remember Jesus instructions to the disciples, they were told to go into a town, share the gospel, if it was rejected wipe the dust off their feet and move on. My point to all of is why waste a great deal of time with someone that is just looking for an argument, with little or no desire to know the truth?

Why do we atheists talk to you when you don't even listen?!

You *don't* have all the answers. You lack the perspective that we atheists have because we once were you. We have an extra perspective. Try listening!

 

[RBPerry]

So far, so good.

Most atheists are not doctors. I'm not one. Are you?

I don't know when exactly a person dies, or if that is even a sensible question. As far as I understand it, death is a process. Not a light switch that goes from on to off.

Other than in the ER, most doctors aren't with patient when they die. Respiratory therapist, Nurses, and Hospice are more frequently. Death can be a slow or long process depending on the cause. If you had been with a few people at the time of death you wouldn't have asked that question.

You challenged my honesty in my comments, so we have nothing else to discuss.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Other than in the ER, most doctors aren't with patient when they die. Respiratory therapist, Nurses, and Hospice are more frequently. Death can be a slow or long process depending on the cause. If you had been with a few people at the time of death you wouldn't have asked that question.

So you've been with a few people when they died and now you not only know that we have souls, but you know when they leave the body? OK.

You challenged my honesty in my comments, so we have nothing else to discuss.

No, I never challenged your honesty. I challenged your comprehension. You've just proven me right!

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Atheist come in many varieties just as Christians do. What so many theists do in their attempt to debate with atheist is to convince them of the accuracy of the bible, and that is generally a waste of time. Many atheists are well versed in the bible, they may have been raised in the Christian home and taught Christian principles and then walked away. The issue isn’t why they are atheists but understanding that since they believe there is no god, they generally believe that there is no existence outside of the physical existence that we the living are part of.

It is like attempting to tell someone what clean air looks like, you can not debate spiritual issues with physical examples it normally doesn’t work unless they are on their death bed, then at times they become receptive to the idea of a spiritual existence outside of the physical body.

Those of us that have been around a lot of death can tell when the spirit leaves the body, and many times it does before the physical body is clinically dead. What do I mean by clinically dead, a flat line EEG, meaning the brain is dead. Personally, I believe once the frontal lobe has ceased to function that is normally physical death. The first thing you will hear from the skeptical side of this is the dying brain theory and that has been debunked in my opinion.

Almost every Christian I know has had a come to Jesus experience in their lives, it may not have been traumatic or earth shaking, but the Holy Spirit gave them the spiritual insight and the faith to believe in God. Many have had that experience and still walked away for whatever reason.

Some of the most profound experiences is commonly referred to as near death experiences. Some truly are near death, but many were clinically dead long enough to dispel the dying brain theory. Along with many of these testimonies are subjective, meaning the individuals testimony can’t be substantiated, they may be true, but the lack of scientific or medical evidence to support their stories leave them questionable.

At one time I would waste considerable time attempting to debate atheists and finally realized it was a waste of time. If a person is closed minded to any subject, then there is no room for debate or evaluation of evidence or beliefs.

If a person is an agnostic and willing to make an honest evaluation of Christianity, then you have someone you can have a meaningful dialog with. Again, they must first understand that the spirit and the physical body are separate, the spirit is who you really are, and your body is just the shell that the spirit functions through while the body is alive.

I had one very meaningful relationship with an atheist and as stated above, all my arguments were a waste of time. I left him with this, “If you ever want to know if there is a God, ask Him to reveal himself to you, give a come to Jesus moment. Two years later he looked me up, his comment was interesting, “You made me so angry, I didn’t want to even consider a god, but I had a come to Jesus moment, and I now know the truth.”

The other side is I gave a friend the book “Evidence that demands a verdict”, and “A case for Christ”. He read both and a few weeks later we had lunch, I asked him about both books. His comment was “Very compelling evidence that I find very difficult to dispute, however I still don’t believe.” He is a law professor, and we remained friends until his death a few years ago. That convinced me that with some people no matter the evidence, they will refuse to believe. I think with some people it is a sin they hold onto and will refuse to let go of that blinds them to the reality of God, but that is just my opinion.

It is interesting that many atheists that had death experiences and returned are no longer atheists and were given another chance in life. Obviously, God seen some redeeming qualities in the person, and that is understandable because I know many non-believers that are wonderful people.

Remember Jesus instructions to the disciples, they were told to go into a town, share the gospel, if it was rejected wipe the dust off their feet and move on. My point to all of is why waste a great deal of time with someone that is just looking for an argument, with little or no desire to know the truth?

If you're getting tired of atheists not buying your arguments, perhaps you ought to take another look at them. Perhaps you just don't have any good arguments? If you think that the book Evidence That Demands A Verdict is in any way compelling, then perhaps the Case you make for Christ isn't as iron-clad as you think.

 

[RBPerry]

Looking outside the bible or any other religious books there other sources to consider. "Near-death.com and Resons to believe" are two excellent sources.
Regarding the near death experiences, focus on the ones that were clinically dead and supported by medical professionals. Reason to believe is a group of scientist that present scientific arguments for their faith.

I came to faith in Christ just as Josh McDowell did, looking for a way to prove the bible wrong, as with him, in my opinion I failed, I just found the circumstantial and absolute evidence overwhelming, obviously others haven't.

My purpose of my original post was to point out to other Christians the futility in endless debates that go no where. Evaluate the evidence that is available then decide what one chooses to believe or reject. Most won't take the time to do the research but will hold to whatever their personal opinion is. I fully understand that many non-believers are very well educated and intelligent people, that doesn't mean they are open minded. Many just regurgitate what some professor in their favorite philosophy class has taught, and fail to think for themselves, and yes I got that comment from "Good Will Hunting".

 

[RBPerry]

If you're getting tired of atheists not buying your arguments, perhaps you ought to take another look at them. Perhaps you just don't have any good arguments? If you think that the book Evidence That Demands A Verdict is in any way compelling, then perhaps the Case you make for Christ isn't as iron-clad as you think.

I've read some of your posts and I doubt if we have anything to discuss. Have a wonderful day.

 

[Shadow]

My point to all of is why waste a great deal of time with someone that is just looking for an argument, with little or no desire to know the truth?

Speaking as an Atheist and somewhat a guilty party, yes, it is often a considerable waste of time. By all means socialise with Atheists, be friends with them and get to know them. We can be an interesting bunch, demonstrate certain virtues and can be kind to others in our own ways. But it is easier to claim intellectual and moral superiority over believers than to engage with them as people. To Atheists, Religion becomes a "thing" rather than a way of life and a personal journey. We can be too rational and emotionally distant for our own good.

In close company, a select few will demonstrate the intellectual and emotional openness to engage with believers, but the temptation is to "shoot the messenger". The best case scenario is that once you get to know someone, are able to share your experiences and develop respect for each other, people can learn to agree to disagree and that can be conducive to healthier and more civil discussion. The best discussions are often the ones that don't lead anywhere but can take you on a trek through history, philosophy, science and religion out of a sense of play, wonder and exploration.

 

[RBPerry]

Speaking as an Atheist and somewhat a guilty party, yes, it is often a considerable waste of time. By all means socialise with Atheists, be friends with them and get to know them. We can be an interesting bunch, demonstrate certain virtues and can be kind to others in our own ways. But it is easier to claim intellectual and moral superiority over believers than to engage with them as people. To Atheists, Religion becomes a "thing" rather than a way of life and a personal journey. We can be too rational and emotionally distant for our own good.

In close company, a select few will demonstrate the intellectual and emotional openness to engage with believers, but the temptation is to "shoot the messenger". The best case scenario is that once you get to know someone, are able to share your experiences and develop respect for each other, people can learn to agree to disagree and that can be conducive to healthier and more civil discussion. The best discussions are often the ones that don't lead anywhere but can take you on a trek through history, philosophy, science and religion out of a sense of play, wonder and exploration.

You make some good points and I agree not to reject anyone and certainly don't give an impression that you as a theist are any wiser than non-believers. There is a saying "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink" and that is true with all of us. We can become so closed minded that we miss the reality of life and it's purposes.
I still work part time at one of the Universities in California, I wear a hat that says "Walk with Jesus", and it really infuriates many here, why, I don't know, and I don't care. I do have several other colleagues that are non-believers that I'm very good friends with, and we have had some wonderful discussions. On the other hand many are just antagonistic and I always wonder what it is in their life that has caused them to look upon Christian with contempt.
I could be a licensed therapist but I refuse to submit to certain requirement of beliefs required in this state, meaning, again, my beliefs and convictions are discriminated against because of political correctness.
What you find is most atheist will not evaluate the Christian beliefs with an open mind, they begin as I once did with the presupposition that isn't to be believed or even considered.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I've read some of your posts and I doubt if we have anything to discuss. Have a wonderful day.

I doubt it as well. I'm interested in Christians who can provide rational arguments to support their beliefs (since this is the purpose of this forum).

If you can't do that, well...another Christian who comes on here and can't back up their ideas.

 

[BigV]

What you find is most atheist will not evaluate the Christian beliefs with an open mind, they begin as I once did with the presupposition that isn't to be believed or even considered.

I'm curious, how open is your mind to the non-Christian religions?

 

[RBPerry]

I'm curious, how open is your mind to the non-Christian religions?

At one point in my life I thought the Buddhism held the answers I was looking for. I have studied a few others. Many other religions have some very good beliefs, but all ended up lacking in one area or another in my opinion. Do you have a specific religion your considering or are part of? One thing I will say about my beliefs is that I'm not a fundamentalist.