Why hasn't Jesus come back yet?

[Tra Phull]

Thx
Have a good night

 

[claninja]

You ignored the text and questions i submitted.

Well you did ignore my argument that surmount your changing of the definitions of words like eggizo and genea. But let's take a look at specifically what Ignored.

2 Peter 3:3-13 couldn't be clearer: “Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai]: with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

What is the focus here (and that of the rest of the NT)? Is it Titus or Jesus?

I answered the question in post 217. I stated:

"The focus is the end of the old covenant system, which had been made obsolete at the cross, and the resurrection."

Now, if you don't understand preterism, then I can't help that didn't like my reply, but I did answer, and did not ignore it.

1 and 2 Peter were written prior to 66-70ad. The preterist position is that the promise of the coming of the Lord refers to the coming of Jesus in Judgment on Israel in 66-70ad. This is when the old covenant passed away, which would be equivalent to the heavens and earth and elements burning up and melting. Notice Peter, states that the heaven and earth prior to the flood was destroyed, and Peter was presently living in a different heaven and earth.

What is the promise? Is it AD70 or the final climactic return of Christ, which includes the general resurrection/judgment of the living and the dead and the introduction of the new perfect eternal state?

Again, I answered this in Post 217:


"The coming judgment of Christ on Israel in 66-70AD resulted in the dead being caught up to heaven to forever be with the Lord."

This answers
the Promise: coming of Christ in judgment upon Israel
When: 66-70ad
what resulted: the dead in Christ going home to be with the Lord forever.

So again, I'm not sure which part your questions I ignored, as you so nicely put it.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Well you did ignore my argument that surmount your changing of the definitions of words like eggizo and genea. But let's take a look at specifically what Ignored.



I answered the question in post 217. I stated:

"The focus is the end of the old covenant system, which had been made obsolete at the cross, and the resurrection."

Now, if you don't understand preterism, then I can't help that didn't like my reply, but I did answer, and did not ignore it.

1 and 2 Peter were written prior to 66-70ad. The preterist position is that the promise of the coming of the Lord refers to the coming of Jesus in Judgment on Israel in 66-70ad. This is when the old covenant passed away, which would be equivalent to the heavens and earth and elements burning up and melting. Notice Peter, states that the heaven and earth prior to the flood was destroyed, and Peter was presently living in a different heaven and earth.



Again, I answered this in Post 217:


"The coming judgment of Christ on Israel in 66-70AD resulted in the dead being caught up to heaven to forever be with the Lord."

This answers
the Promise: coming of Christ in judgment upon Israel
When: 66-70ad
what resulted: the dead in Christ going home to be with the Lord forever.

So again, I'm not sure which part your questions I ignored, as you so nicely put it.

Your fixation with the coming of Titus and AD70 is breathtaking and nonsensical. Text after text that relates to Christ and His the First and Second Advents are attributed to Titus and AD70.

You are mixing up the ungodly people (kosmos) and the physical earth (gē). The world (kosmos) was destroyed in Noah's day but the earth (gē) was not. Big different! The kosmos can refer to the physical earth but can also refer to the people or orderly arrangement on earth. Anyway, there is a major difference between the world being enveloped by water and being purged by fire. What is more, when the heavens and earth are coupled together (as they are here) they always mean exactly that. Significantly, the word gē is employed to describe the physical globe.

2 Peter 2:4-9: “For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world (kosmos), but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world (kosmos) of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked. (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished.”

This passage highlights the great faithfulness of God toward His elect and the justice of God against the rebellious. It is a solemn reminder to mankind of the awful consequences of rejecting God or His gracious plan of salvation. Peter points us back in time to God’s treatment of the rebellious angels at the beginning and his dealing with Noah’s world and also the iniquitous cities of Sodom and Gomorrha in Lot’s day. The two mentions of “world” in v 5 (referring to Noah’s day) are not talking about the physical earth (gē) but rather “the old world … the world of the ungodly” – talking about the wicked. The Greek word for “world” here is kosmos describing the human world that rejected God in Noah’s day.

Most commentators accept that Peter is speaking of actual people in in v 5 and not the physical world.

The whole context and wording here is clear and unequivocal. It is showing us God’s ultimate grace when dealing with those who humble themselves and His ultimate justice when dealing with rebellious angels and humans. We see that in Peter’s conclusion of his thought in v 9: “The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished.”

2 Peter 3:3-7 similarly says: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens (ouranos) were of old (or “a long time”), and the earth (gē) standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world (kosmos) that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens (ouranos) and the earth (gē), which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”

Again: the writer distinguishes between the ungodly world (kosmos) and the physical earth (gē). Peter deliberately uses the two different Greek words to differentiate between them. This is in context with everything he had previously said in 2 Peter 2.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Well you did ignore my argument that surmount your changing of the definitions of words like eggizo and genea. But let's take a look at specifically what Ignored.



I answered the question in post 217. I stated:

"The focus is the end of the old covenant system, which had been made obsolete at the cross, and the resurrection."

Now, if you don't understand preterism, then I can't help that didn't like my reply, but I did answer, and did not ignore it.

1 and 2 Peter were written prior to 66-70ad. The preterist position is that the promise of the coming of the Lord refers to the coming of Jesus in Judgment on Israel in 66-70ad. This is when the old covenant passed away, which would be equivalent to the heavens and earth and elements burning up and melting. Notice Peter, states that the heaven and earth prior to the flood was destroyed, and Peter was presently living in a different heaven and earth.



Again, I answered this in Post 217:


"The coming judgment of Christ on Israel in 66-70AD resulted in the dead being caught up to heaven to forever be with the Lord."

This answers
the Promise: coming of Christ in judgment upon Israel
When: 66-70ad
what resulted: the dead in Christ going home to be with the Lord forever.

So again, I'm not sure which part your questions I ignored, as you so nicely put it.

What in the world has 'the heavens passing away with a great noise' to do with the old covenant passing away?
What in the world has 'the elements melting with fervent heat' to do with the old covenant passing away?
What in the world has 'the works on earth being burned up' to do with the old covenant passing away?

This is ridiculous!

 

[Chris35]

9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, e were killed just as they had been.

I believe God puts back wrath and judgment why? Becsuse it is not time yet, there are still more to come to him, still more who will fiind him. God knows who they are and he will not lose any of them because of early judgment of the wicked.


I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in



Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

Why does a falling away need to happen?
I believe because, untill the world starts turning there back on God, the gospel is still being heard and there are still more people coming to him..







Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

Do not think, that the wickedness of man, doesnt grieve God, he sees it all. God has indeeded apointed a time to pour at his wrath, however he has chosen to be patient and endure, because of the love he has for our brothers and sisters who are still to come.

If our father has chosen to be patient and endure, we should also to.

 

[Erik Nelson]

A day is a thousand years AND a thousand years is but a day.
You are picking and choosing your phrase there...and the phrase only means that God speaks of time measures with no precision...which is His good purpose.
Don't know why you say Revelation can't be wrong. It isn't wrong in my understanding of its meaning either.

the Resurrection began with Jesus, the first fruits thereof

19 chapters of revelation later, the resurrection continues with the martyrs

another thousand years plus after that is the rest of the resurrection

clearly a protracted process spanning much more than a millennium...

only Revelation 1-18 occurred in the first century, the aftermath of Armageddon against apostate Jerusalem (Rev 19-20) has been occurring ever since

 

[parousia70]

What in the world has 'the heavens passing away with a great noise' to do with the old covenant passing away?

Again, the "passing of heavens and earth" is classic Language the prophets employed over and over to discuss the fall of kingdoms throughout the OT...

The heaven and earth God "laid the foundation of" when He formed the nation of Israel in the wilderness most certainly passed away with a great Noise, when the Lord of the Vineyard came and was the stone that ground them to powder in 66-70:

Isaiah 51:16
And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, ‘You are My people.’ ”

What in the world has 'the elements melting with fervent heat' to do with the old covenant passing away?
Elements,
What in the world has 'the works on earth being burned up' to do with the old covenant passing away?

"Elements" is the Greek "stoicheion" and is always used in scripture to refer to the basic, rudementary principles of the "law", not the "periodic table" as you would have it.

Here are ALL uses of "stoicheion" in scripture:

Ga 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements(stoicheion) of the world:

Ga 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements,(stoicheion) whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments (stoicheion) of the world, and not after Christ.

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments (stoicheion) of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles (stoicheion) of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

And finally.......
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?


Indeed, Both the "elements": (stoicheia), ie: the first princliples and oracles of God (Hebrews 5:12) and the "Heavens and Earth" that God Planted AFTER He brought the Hebrew people out of Egypt and gave them the Law (Isaiah 51:16) LITERALLY melted with fervent heat in AD 70 when the temple was burned and dismantled stone by stone (Matthew 24:2). This Happened When the Lord of the Vineyard came and was the Stone that Crushed those wicked men to powder, removing the Kingdom from them, and leasing it to a New Nation, exactly as prophesied (Matthew 21:40-45)

When you interprate "elements" to mean rocks, dirt etc, and even going so amazingly far out as to interprate "stoicheion" to mean "planet earth" as is your apparent want, you are making the apostles, and therefore scripture, say something they are absolutely, irrefutably not saying at all.

Your futurist bias is hardening your heart to the plain meaning of scripture, forcing you to ignore and neglect precious, God breathed truths, in favor of twisting it into what you "want" it to say.

I am praying God will soften it.

 

[parousia70]

The elements have not melted with fervent heat yet - one major thing about a separation of Full and Partial Preterism, and I still kind of resent all Peterists being lumped together - C.F. recognizes a difference - always has.

Well, one can be a partial preterist (like me) and still recognize, As I demonstrate above, the Elements, (basic, rudimentary principles of the Law of Moses) did indeed melt with fervent heat in 70AD.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Again, the "passing of heavens and earth" is classic Language the prophets employed over and over to discuss the fall of kingdoms throughout the OT...

The heaven and earth God "laid the foundation of" when He formed the nation of Israel in the wilderness most certainly passed away with a great Noise, when the Lord of the Vineyard came and was the stone that ground them to powder in 66-70:

Isaiah 51:16
And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, ‘You are My people.’ ”



"Elements" is the Greek "stoicheion" and is always used in scripture to refer to the basic, rudementary principles of the "law", not the "periodic table" as you would have it.

Here are ALL uses of "stoicheion" in scripture:

Ga 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements(stoicheion) of the world:

Ga 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements,(stoicheion) whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments (stoicheion) of the world, and not after Christ.

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments (stoicheion) of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles (stoicheion) of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

And finally.......
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?


Indeed, Both the "elements": (stoicheia), ie: the first princliples and oracles of God (Hebrews 5:12) and the "Heavens and Earth" that God Planted AFTER He brought the Hebrew people out of Egypt and gave them the Law (Isaiah 51:16) LITERALLY melted with fervent heat in AD 70 when the temple was burned and dismantled stone by stone (Matthew 24:2). This Happened When the Lord of the Vineyard came and was the Stone that Crushed those wicked men to powder, removing the Kingdom from them, and leasing it to a New Nation, exactly as prophesied (Matthew 21:40-45)

When you interprate "elements" to mean rocks, dirt etc, and even going so amazingly far out as to interprate "stoicheion" to mean "planet earth" as is your apparent want, you are making the apostles, and therefore scripture, say something they are absolutely, irrefutably not saying at all.

Your futurist bias is hardening your heart to the plain meaning of scripture, forcing you to ignore and neglect precious, God breathed truths, in favor of twisting it into what you "want" it to say.

I am praying God will soften it.

I am not a Futurist. I am Amillenialist. I see the Messianic reign and plan of God unfolding between the two Advents (these correlate with the last days). The last day is the second coming of Christ, which seeing the general resurrection.

None of what do you present has anything remotely to do with the ending of the old covenant. What is more, it finished when Jesus said "it is finished," that saw the immediate ripping of the curtain in two in the temple, rendering the old covenant obsolete.

 

[parousia70]

None of what do you present has anything remotely to do with the ending of the old covenant.

You should supply the alternate meaning for the passages I cite then.

It's not really a rebuttal of any significance to simply say "those passages don't mean what you contend they do" without supplying an alternate meaning for us to consider.

But that's been your MO here for a while now...
we provide a plethora of detailed scripture references and our contention as to what they mean, and you reply with "that's not what those scriptures mean" yet you supply no alternate meaning...

Show us HOW the scriptures I cited about the Elements must refer to the periodic table, the physical elements of the earth, seas, sky etc, to support your claim that they do.

I believe the scriptures are clear that elements is ALWAYS used to refer to the basic rudimentary principles of the Mosaic Law, and I believe I have shown that concretely.

Next, show us HOW the "heavens and Earth God "planted & Laid the foundation of" in the wilderness when He Gave the Law and formed Israel into a Covenant nation (Isaiah 51:16) did not "pass away with a great noise" in 70 AD...

I get that You disagree with my interpretations of the scriptures I cite.. but that's not enough of a rebuttal...so show is how those scriptures don't mean what I contend they do, or acquiesce my point.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Again, the "passing of heavens and earth" is classic Language the prophets employed over and over to discuss the fall of kingdoms throughout the OT...

The heaven and earth God "laid the foundation of" when He formed the nation of Israel in the wilderness most certainly passed away with a great Noise, when the Lord of the Vineyard came and was the stone that ground them to powder in 66-70:

Isaiah 51:16
And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, ‘You are My people.’ ”



"Elements" is the Greek "stoicheion" and is always used in scripture to refer to the basic, rudementary principles of the "law", not the "periodic table" as you would have it.

Here are ALL uses of "stoicheion" in scripture:

Ga 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements(stoicheion) of the world:

Ga 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements,(stoicheion) whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments (stoicheion) of the world, and not after Christ.

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments (stoicheion) of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles (stoicheion) of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

And finally.......
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?


Indeed, Both the "elements": (stoicheia), ie: the first princliples and oracles of God (Hebrews 5:12) and the "Heavens and Earth" that God Planted AFTER He brought the Hebrew people out of Egypt and gave them the Law (Isaiah 51:16) LITERALLY melted with fervent heat in AD 70 when the temple was burned and dismantled stone by stone (Matthew 24:2). This Happened When the Lord of the Vineyard came and was the Stone that Crushed those wicked men to powder, removing the Kingdom from them, and leasing it to a New Nation, exactly as prophesied (Matthew 21:40-45)

When you interprate "elements" to mean rocks, dirt etc, and even going so amazingly far out as to interprate "stoicheion" to mean "planet earth" as is your apparent want, you are making the apostles, and therefore scripture, say something they are absolutely, irrefutably not saying at all.

Your futurist bias is hardening your heart to the plain meaning of scripture, forcing you to ignore and neglect precious, God breathed truths, in favor of twisting it into what you "want" it to say.

I am praying God will soften it.

You should supply the alternate meaning for the passages I cite then.

It's not really a rebuttal of any significance to simply say "those passages don't mean what you contend they do" without supplying an alternate meaning for us to consider.

But that's been your MO here for a while now...
we provide a plethora of detailed scripture references and our contention as to what they mean, and you reply with "that's not what those scriptures mean" yet you supply no alternate meaning...

Show us HOW the scriptures I cited about the Elements must refer to the periodic table, the physical elements of the earth, seas, sky etc, to support your claim that they do.

I believe the scriptures are clear that elements is ALWAYS used to refer to the basic rudimentary principles of the Mosaic Law, and I believe I have shown that concretely.

Next, show us HOW the "heavens and Earth God "planted & Laid the foundation of" in the wilderness when He Gave the Law and formed Israel into a Covenant nation (Isaiah 51:16) did not "pass away with a great noise in 70 AD...

I get that You disagree with my interpretations of the scriptures I cite.. but that's not enough of a rebuttal...so show is how those scriptures don't mean what I contend they do, or acquiesce my point.

Preterists of your extreme ilk are always rewriting the meaning of words, are subjective in their approach to each Scripture or selectively cherry picking one meaning out of many (to the exclusion of the rest) that suits your biased paradigm to justify their beliefs. This is the wrong way to understand biblical truth. Nothing is literal or consistent. Every reality is spiritualized away in order to render it as having to literal physical meaning.

The word stoicheion carries a broad meaning describing the arrangement in view, according to the subject matter being described (either literal or figurative):

Thayer Definition:

1) any first thing, from which the others belonging to some series or composite whole take their rise, an element, first principal
1a) the letters of the alphabet as the elements of speech, not however the written characters, but the spoken sounds
1b) the elements from which all things have come, the material causes of the universe
1c) the heavenly bodies, either as parts of the heavens or (as others think) because in them the elements of man, life and destiny were supposed to reside
1d) the elements, rudiments, primary and fundamental principles of any art, science, or discipline

 

[parousia70]

What is more, it finished when Jesus said "it is finished," that saw the immediate ripping of the curtain in two in the temple, rendering the old covenant obsolete.

It was testified to be presently extant, but Obsolete, growing old and ready to vanish in the late 50's AD - decades AFTER the cross.
It VANISHED from the earth forever in 70.

 

[parousia70]

Preterists are always rewriting the meaning of words, are subjective in their approach to each Scripture or cherry picking a meaning out of many to justify their beliefs. This is the wrong way to understand biblical truth. Nothing is literal or consistent. Every reality is spiritualized away in order to render it as having to literal physical meaning.

The word stoicheion carries a broad meaning describing the arrangement in view, pertaining to the subject matter being described (either literal or figurative):

Thayer Definition:

1) any first thing, from which the others belonging to some series or composite whole take their rise, an element, first principal
1a) the letters of the alphabet as the elements of speech, not however the written characters, but the spoken sounds
1b) the elements from which all things have come, the material causes of the universe
1c) the heavenly bodies, either as parts of the heavens or (as others think) because in them the elements of man, life and destiny were supposed to reside
1d) the elements, rudiments, primary and fundamental principles of any art, science, or discipline

You correctly cite that USAGE determines Etymology..

Take the 7 passages I cite and show us how Elements means what you contend it does in each passage.

I contend it means the same thing in all 7 passages.

You have yet to demonstrate otherwise

 

[Tra Phull]

Pretty good stuff on ELEMENTS, P70

 

[sovereigngrace]

It was testified to be presently extant, but Obsolete, growing old and ready to vanish in the late 50's AD - decades AFTER the cross.
It VANISHED from the earth forever in 70.

You are playing with words. Every topic we speak of is applied to the coming of Titus in AD70. You are fixated with it. It is the pivotal moment of history for you. It is all you want to speak about. Look at the title you give yourself - parousia70? It testifies loud and clear where your focus is. The rest of us see Christ, His earthly Messianic ministry, His life, death and resurrection, and His final future glorious return, as being the focus of Scripture.

 

[sovereigngrace]

You correctly cite that USAGE determines Etymology..

Take the 7 passages I cite and show us how Elements means what you contend it does in each passage.

I contend it means the same thing in all 7 passages.

You have yet to demonstrate otherwise

You totally ignored what I presented to you that shows both a literal and figurative application. Nothing is literal to you.

1. What Scriptures do you believe teaches a literal physical future coming of Christ?
2. Do you believe the dead in Christ have a future physical resurrection when Jesus comes?
3. What happens to those who are alive when Christ comes literally and physically again at the end?
4. Has "the bondage of corruption" been removed from the creature and creation? If not, when does that happen?
5. When does the dead in Christ get their new physical bodies?
6. When exactly did/do you think the Old Testament dead escape Hades/Sheol and be united to Christ in the heavenlies?

 

[claninja]

You claimed:
Scripture teaches that Jesus would come immediately after the tribulation of 1st century Jerusalem.

This is not what Scripture teaches. You are reading into what is said there using your own preconceived ideas of the tribulation and the Last Day. What and when is the Tribulation? That is for Scripture to teach us; we are not to run ahead advancing what only amounts to only one's own theories.

Likewise onw must not read a Revelation literally...they were never delivered in that form.

Scripture literally states “immediately” after the tribulation of Jerusalem. There would be signs in the heavens and they would see Jesus coming on the clouds. I didn’t add the word immediately or read that into the text, it’s literally found in Matthew 24:29-30.

Additionally, Jesus literally states this generation will not pass away until all these things occur. That would include the tribulation and the coming of Jesus in judgement upon Israel. Matthew 24:34


I agree that much of revelation is not to be taken literally. I take the definitions of words literally, while understanding the visions as symbols

 

[parousia70]

You are playing with words. Every topic we speak of is applied to the coming of Titus in AD70. You are fixated with it. It is the pivotal moment of history for you. It is all you want to speak about. Look at the title you give yourself - parousia70? It testifies loud and clear where your focus is. The rest of us see Christ, His earthly Messianic ministry, His life, death and resurrection, and His final future glorious return, as being the focus of Scripture.

We are to fixate on what scripture fixates.
For Example, 1 Thess 4:13-17 is a discussion of when the O.T. dead would escape Hades/Sheol and be united to Christ in the heavenlies. In short, Paul says that their release from Hades was about to happen, as the impending historic change of the covenants (Heb 8:13/2 Cor 3:6-11) was to be marked by the Temple's profanation/desecration (2 Thess 2:3-4/Matt 23:33-24:2) and God's wrath on their disobedient Jewish countrymen (1 Thess 2:15-16/Mt 23:33-38/Acts 3:22-24).

Just about everyone who studies NT theology knows that a major change took place for the dead back in the first century. In OT times, the dead did *not* ascend into Heaven but rather were prevented from doing so by the absence of a covenant that cleansed them fully. Moreover, nearly all christian groups admit that a change has occurred for the dead between the OT times and the NT times. What is entirely unclear however is precisely when that change took place. I am making the case that the bible teaches it took place when the Temple was destroyed during their "visitation" (Luke 19:40-44), in the days of vengeance (Luke 21:20-22), when the Lord of the Vineyard came and destroyed the wicked servants and leased the kingdom to a new nation (Matthew 21:4-45).

The destruction of the Temple was hugely significant in that it was the historic signifier that the Old Covenant had vanished and the New had replaced it. Moreover, the destruction of the Temple was a key teaching of Christ, and one St. Paul picks up on at 2 Thess 2:3-4. And so I believe the most obvious and biblical understanding of 1 Thess 4 is that the dead in Hades were to be united to Christ when the Temple was profaned and desecrated. The "change" was huge, for it was the precise "change" that we think of when we distinguish the Old Covenant from the New Covenant.

 

[parousia70]

You totally ignored what I presented to you that shows both a literal and figurative application. Nothing is literal to you.

1. What Scriptures do you believe teaches a literal physical future coming of Christ?
2. Do you believe the dead in Christ have a future physical resurrection when Jesus comes?
3. What happens to those who are alive when Christ comes literally and physically again at the end?
4. Has "the bondage of corruption" been removed from the creature and creation? If not, when does that happen?
5. When does the dead in Christ get their new physical bodies?
6. When exactly did/do you think the Old Testament dead escape Hades/Sheol and be united to Christ in the heavenlies?

Please add scripture references that you assert demonstrate the premise of each question.

 

[sovereigngrace]

We are to fixate on what scripture fixates.
For Example, 1 Thess 4:13-17 is a discussion of when the O.T. dead would escape Hades/Sheol and be united to Christ in the heavenlies. In short, Paul says that their release from Hades was about to happen, as the impending historic change of the covenants (Heb 8:13/2 Cor 3:6-11) was to be marked by the Temple's profanation/desecration (2 Thess 2:3-4/Matt 23:33-24:2) and God's wrath on their disobedient Jewish countrymen (1 Thess 2:15-16/Mt 23:33-38/Acts 3:22-24).

Just about everyone who studies NT theology knows that a major change took place for the dead back in the first century. In OT times, the dead did *not* ascend into Heaven but rather were prevented from doing so by the absence of a covenant that cleansed them fully. Moreover, nearly all christian groups admit that a change has occurred for the dead between the OT times and the NT times. What is entirely unclear however is precisely when that change took place. I am making the case that the bible teaches it took place when the Temple was destroyed during their "visitation" (Luke 19:40-44), in the days of vengeance (Luke 21:20-22), when the Lord of the Vineyard came and destroyed the wicked servants and leased the kingdom to a new nation (Matthew 21:4-45).

The destruction of the Temple was hugely significant in that it was the historic signifier that the Old Covenant had vanished and the New had replaced it. Moreover, the destruction of the Temple was a key teaching of Christ, and one St. Paul picks up on at 2 Thess 2:3-4. And so I believe the most obvious and biblical understanding of 1 Thess 4 is that the dead in Hades were to be united to Christ when the Temple was profaned and desecrated. The "change" was huge, for it was the precise "change" that we think of when we distinguish the Old Covenant from the New Covenant.

You just proved my point.