The hypocrisy of being "pro-life"

[RaymondG]

Chill.

My apologizes.....I just care so much for the little ones, that I prefer to use the term no one else can use without referring to them (abortion...as opposed to murdering children which can extend to age 12, i believe) and I like to stay on the subject and not drift into talks of famous movies we've seen while in a discussion about them. I find both cases to be distracting.....when this topic deserves everyones full attention.

 

[chevyontheriver]

My apologizes.....I just care so much for the little ones, that I prefer to use the term no one else can use without referring to them (abortion...as opposed to murdering children which can extend to age 12, i believe) and I like to stay on the subject and not drift into talks of famous movies we've seen while in a discussion about them. I find both cases to be distracting.....when this topic deserves everyones full attention.

The movies mentioned are relevant because they show the dehumanization that is also at the core of abortion. Not a real distraction. If people didn't first devalue the lives of the little ones there would be no abortion.

 

[RaymondG]

The movies mentioned are relevant because they show the dehumanization that is also at the core of abortion. Not a real distraction. If people didn't first devalue the lives of the little ones there would be no abortion.

We are talking about saving the lives of the unborn......so talks of horror movies and tortured Jews are relevant to think about now? And so are the deaths of children up to age 12?

Ok, ill watch the movies you mentioned and see if they will help me think about the unborn more....... maybe you are right.

 

[chevyontheriver]

What is the harm in using a condom?

Would you be willing to change your life based on what you read below? If you answer 'yes' or 'maybe' then keep reading. If 'no' then stop here and let me know you have no interest.

First, I'll grant you that a condom does not directly cause an abortion. Some people oppose some contraceptives because they can result in abortions. Not condoms.

What do you call a long term user of a condom? A father. Condoms are not very effective. Not at preventing pregnancy, nor at preventing disease. The harm here is it doesn't do what it is advertised to do with anything nearing high reliability.

When a condom fails a woman gets pregnant. What is the backup? Typically abortion. Boyfriend tells girlfriend that he will pay for the abortion, but she's gotta have it or else he will dump her. Happens all the time. It's the way contraceptives actually raise the number of abortions rather than lowering them. And because condoms are so failure prone, the cause a lot of abortions as 'backup' to the condoms.

Sex is very physical contact. We get all contacty. But with a condom there is a barrier to full contact. In sex we embrace the totality of the other person. With a condom it's not total. Not fully naked. Ashamed of this little part of the body. A part that has to remain clothed. That's just not how sex was supposed to be.

Sex is about a total self gift. Sex with a condom says I give you everything ... except that part of me, which I can't really give to you without preventing it from doing what it was designed to do, to share something with you that is so intimate. There is a barrier to full sharing of selves and bodies.

Sex is supposed to be in a framework of trust and of love, a life-long exclusive private intimate thing open to the possibility of new life. A condom says no to that openness to new life. It repudiates one of the natural functions of sex.

What does your denomination say? I'm sure they say a condom is just fine, as well as other kinds of contraceptives. How old is your denomination? Does it go back to at least 1930? If so, do you know what they said in 1930? How does that differ from today? Hint: Your denomination, if it actually goes back that far, historically would have more in common with Luther and Calvin AND the Catholic Church than what you would hear from your denomination today. So were they wrong then? Or are they wrong now?

 

[chevyontheriver]

We are talking about saving the lives of the unborn......so talks of horror movies and tortured Jews are relevant to think about now? And so are the deaths of children up to age 12?

Ok, ill watch the movies you mentioned and see if they will help me think about the unborn more....... maybe you are right.

You don't have to watch the movies. They are actually rather depressing FYI.

Here's the simple take home message about these movies. We depersonalize people and then we feel free to kill them. Jews, old people, babies in the womb. First depersonalize. Then kill. It's all so easy to do. That's the terror of it.

 

[chevyontheriver]

What do you call armed robbery in which the victim is killed? What do you call a home invasion in which the owner is killed? What do you say happened to the gang member who dies in a shootout?

Why would you group the innocent unborn, with the lives mentioned above? Why would you prefer that what happens to them be generalized so that we can say the same thing happens to gang members everyday?

Maybe someone thought that the unborn deserved a word that no one else can use.......A word that would differentiate what happens to them from what happens to gang members : Abortion.

Why do you wish to take their identity away, just like so many are willing to take away their opportunity to live?

Quoting your post, in full, as I did here....no one would even know that you are talking about unborn fetuses. I think you do them a disservice by replacing the name, given to describe the termination of the unborn, with words that fosters acceptance of your Beliefs instead.

Are we fighting for the unborn, or just trying to get people to believe what we believe? We have to make a choice.

Raymond, chill again.

I was responding to another post which spoke of abortion this way: "I did not deny it is murder. That would be stupid."

She admitted that abortion was one form of murder.

So I asked, in the context of this abortion discussion: "Why do you think murder is OK?"

Most normal people do not think murder is OK. She called abortion a form of murder. Yet she supports abortion in many instances. So I asked.

I'm not minimizing abortion one little bit.

 

[Hazelelponi]

You don't have to watch the movies. They are actually rather depressing FYI.

Here's the simple take home message about these movies. We depersonalize people and then we feel free to kill them. Jews, old people, babies in the womb. First depersonalize. Then kill. It's all so easy to do. That's the terror of it.

FYI I picked Schindlers list because it was a true story, Oscar Schindler was a real person and that really occurred...

And your right, all this is the terror of it all.. it really is so easy to do.. to remove the personhood from people.. sad, but true.

 

[coffee4u]

No. I can't. I could show you considerable Biology that says we are animals. The Scripture, which you know yourself, describes how we are made in the image of God. That's true. We agree. But we are also animals, mammals in fact, primates even. And this new coronavirus is something from other animals and we can get it because we are related to the normal host of that virus. We are both. We are not merely animals. We are animals who are so much more, by the hand of God.

This is a tangent, a rabbit hole, and I don't really want to sidetrack the whole thread because of it. If you want to sidetrack the thread, I will not respond to you further.

Once again someone who believes scripture but puts man's wisdom above God's.
Thank you for being honest at least because most people on here are not.

Do you believe Jesus died for your sins and that we are saved by faith alone?
If so why go with what man says?

Apart from the fact that we are created in God's image, the Bible never says that we are animals it also says that there is four kinds of flesh.
1 Corinthians 15:39
Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another.
We do not have the flesh of animals.

You may see it as a side track, I see this as one of the main reasons for beliefs/threads like this.
Once a person believes in evolution
It's very easy to move to the position of man is an animal.
Once a person views man as merely an animal it's very easy to move into the position that human life does not have intrinsic value in and of itself but rather it's the feelings, experience or quality of life that counts.
Then abortion, euthanasia and other crimes against other humans will flourish.

 

[Cis.jd]

Telling the mother she murdered her baby is not helping her. That only makes her, a woman who might already have PTSD, feel worse.

In one side, we can't ignore reason as well. Because just when is it factual to say this isn't a life yet? I've heard various different arguments from the left on the months and none of them agree on a specific time. Some of them state that if it's not outside the womb then it isn't a life, so by that logic a baby who is due tomorrow isn't a life.

For you do think a baby who is due by tomorrow is ok to abort (already 8 months in), and if you do and you know a mom who did abort the day of her due date, don't you think it's valid to tell her that she murdered a baby?

On the other side, I also see your point. Internally i'm against abortion but i'll never politic against it , mainly because I am not going to help a young single mom so I have no right to politic (unless it is mandatory). I think it would be better if Christians would effectively show real christianity is by dropping the satan signs and help the single mom who didn't abort her baby and is now struggling to raise it. Pro-life can't be "in the womb only" either.

 

[GodLovesCats]

I was taught pregnancy begins when the zygote/oocyst/blastocyst/embryo attaches to the uterine wall. If this is the medical definition used by gynecologists, pro-lifers are wrong to say fertilization is the moment a woman becomes pregnant. Christians have a bad habit of forcing people to believe Plan B is murder if it is successful as if saying it often enough will make them right and doctors who treat women wrong. What purpose does it serve if women are told they murdered their babies just by taking pills?

 

[Hazelelponi]

I was taught pregnancy begins when the zygote/oocyst/blastocyst/embryo attaches to the uterine wall. If this is the medical definition used by gynecologists, pro-lifers are wrong to say fertilization is the moment a woman becomes pregnant. Christians have a bad habit of forcing people to believe Plan B is murder if it is successful as if saying it often enough will make them right and doctors who treat women wrong. What purpose does it serve if women are told they murdered their babies just by taking pills?

As someone has pointed out, that is a position used by pro-abortionists, some of whom are doctors and has not been the traditional opinion..

Look, I do have something to say. Any woman who had already had an abortion for some reason can seek forgiveness for that sin. All of us have sinned and fallen short.. forgiveness is possible for all.

Getting that forgiveness from God allows also a woman to use her voice to educate other women who might not know or understand the decision they are actually making, that of ending an innocent life that's truly life.

I used to be Muslim and hope someday to use my voice to help other Muslims come to Christ.. we can always use our knowledge and our history to bring others to truth.

We don't have to be so ashamed of something that we will continue in sin and continue inviting others to sin; we can turn it all around after forgiveness and do for others what we appreciate being done for us, or what we desired others to do.

That's how Christ makes a real difference in the world, through individuals with their testimony and experiences helping others overcome the same or similar challenges...

Christ changes the world one heart and life at a time who in turn affect more and on it goes.

Find a church, be around God's people in RL. You might find it a blessing to you.

 

[coffee4u]

I was taught pregnancy begins when the zygote/oocyst/blastocyst/embryo attaches to the uterine wall. If this is the medical definition used by gynecologists, pro-lifers are wrong to say fertilization is the moment a woman becomes pregnant. Christians have a bad habit of forcing people to believe Plan B is murder if it is successful as if saying it often enough will make them right and doctors who treat women wrong. What purpose does it serve if women are told they murdered their babies just by taking pills?

I posted the history of the pill on one of the other abortion threads.
Pre pill, life was regarded to start at fertilization but because of the effect of the pill on preventing implantation, they changed the definition of the start of life, in law, to be implantation. This allowed them to sell the pill as a contraceptive. The pill had already been made 10 years previously but because of the laws they hadn't been able to sell it as a contraceptive but only as a menstruation help with serious side effects of preventing implantation/miscarriage. Of course those in the know, bought it for the side effects long before it 'came out' as a wonder contraceptive.
The start of life was redefined not because of science but because of the marketing of the pill. Not only did this give woman a lot more power over their body but it made mega bucks. Money being the main reason this was done, not so much power for women although that was no doubt the marketing strategy.

You can still find plenty of doctors who say life begins are fertilization because it does.
Life Begins at Fertilization with the Embryo's Conception

 

[BNR32FAN]

Would you be willing to change your life based on what you read below? If you answer 'yes' or 'maybe' then keep reading. If 'no' then stop here and let me know you have no interest.

First, I'll grant you that a condom does not directly cause an abortion. Some people oppose some contraceptives because they can result in abortions. Not condoms.

What do you call a long term user of a condom? A father. Condoms are not very effective. Not at preventing pregnancy, nor at preventing disease. The harm here is it doesn't do what it is advertised to do with anything nearing high reliability.

When a condom fails a woman gets pregnant. What is the backup? Typically abortion. Boyfriend tells girlfriend that he will pay for the abortion, but she's gotta have it or else he will dump her. Happens all the time. It's the way contraceptives actually raise the number of abortions rather than lowering them. And because condoms are so failure prone, the cause a lot of abortions as 'backup' to the condoms.

Sex is very physical contact. We get all contacty. But with a condom there is a barrier to full contact. In sex we embrace the totality of the other person. With a condom it's not total. Not fully naked. Ashamed of this little part of the body. A part that has to remain clothed. That's just not how sex was supposed to be.

Sex is about a total self gift. Sex with a condom says I give you everything ... except that part of me, which I can't really give to you without preventing it from doing what it was designed to do, to share something with you that is so intimate. There is a barrier to full sharing of selves and bodies.

Sex is supposed to be in a framework of trust and of love, a life-long exclusive private intimate thing open to the possibility of new life. A condom says no to that openness to new life. It repudiates one of the natural functions of sex.

What does your denomination say? I'm sure they say a condom is just fine, as well as other kinds of contraceptives. How old is your denomination? Does it go back to at least 1930? If so, do you know what they said in 1930? How does that differ from today? Hint: Your denomination, if it actually goes back that far, historically would have more in common with Luther and Calvin AND the Catholic Church than what you would hear from your denomination today. So were they wrong then? Or are they wrong now?

I’ve never had a condom fail before. I’m not sure where your getting this information but based on my experience they’ve worked 100% of the time I’ve used them. I’m 46 years old and I’ve probably used them over 1,000 times.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I’ve never had a condom fail before. I’m not sure where your getting this information but based on my experience they’ve worked 100% of the time I’ve used them. I’m 46 years old and I’ve probably used them over 1,000 times.

You blew off everything else and focused on this. Oh well.

Even Planned Parenthood admits that the condom user effectiveness is only 85%. Which means that in a year of using condoms, fifteen of a hundred users will cause a pregnancy. That is NOT very good effectiveness. What Is the Effectiveness of Condoms?

I never thought in my life I would be providing a link to Planned Parenthood.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You blew off everything else and focused on this. Oh well.

Even Planned Parenthood admits that the condom user effectiveness is only 85%. Which means that in a year of using condoms, fifteen of a hundred users will cause a pregnancy. That is NOT very good effectiveness. What Is the Effectiveness of Condoms?

I never thought in my life I would be providing a link to Planned Parenthood.

How can those figures be accurate if I’ve never had a condom fail and I’ve used them hundreds of times? I mean maybe these failures are due to using an old condom that has been in someone’s wallet for a few years? But there’s no way that 15% of condoms fail. That’s definitely not an accurate number.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Would you be willing to change your life based on what you read below? If you answer 'yes' or 'maybe' then keep reading. If 'no' then stop here and let me know you have no interest.

First, I'll grant you that a condom does not directly cause an abortion. Some people oppose some contraceptives because they can result in abortions. Not condoms.

What do you call a long term user of a condom? A father. Condoms are not very effective. Not at preventing pregnancy, nor at preventing disease. The harm here is it doesn't do what it is advertised to do with anything nearing high reliability.

When a condom fails a woman gets pregnant. What is the backup? Typically abortion. Boyfriend tells girlfriend that he will pay for the abortion, but she's gotta have it or else he will dump her. Happens all the time. It's the way contraceptives actually raise the number of abortions rather than lowering them. And because condoms are so failure prone, the cause a lot of abortions as 'backup' to the condoms.

Sex is very physical contact. We get all contacty. But with a condom there is a barrier to full contact. In sex we embrace the totality of the other person. With a condom it's not total. Not fully naked. Ashamed of this little part of the body. A part that has to remain clothed. That's just not how sex was supposed to be.

Sex is about a total self gift. Sex with a condom says I give you everything ... except that part of me, which I can't really give to you without preventing it from doing what it was designed to do, to share something with you that is so intimate. There is a barrier to full sharing of selves and bodies.

Sex is supposed to be in a framework of trust and of love, a life-long exclusive private intimate thing open to the possibility of new life. A condom says no to that openness to new life. It repudiates one of the natural functions of sex.

What does your denomination say? I'm sure they say a condom is just fine, as well as other kinds of contraceptives. How old is your denomination? Does it go back to at least 1930? If so, do you know what they said in 1930? How does that differ from today? Hint: Your denomination, if it actually goes back that far, historically would have more in common with Luther and Calvin AND the Catholic Church than what you would hear from your denomination today. So were they wrong then? Or are they wrong now?

I’m a nondenominational but who cares what a certain denomination says about contraceptives? What does the Bible say about them? Nothing at all, but if you take into consideration how many children people had in biblical times it’s pretty obvious that we are not expected to have a child every time we have sex. I don’t know of any biblical characters who had 40-50 children. So evidently they “pulled out” which is no more morally incorrect than using a condom or birth control.

 

[chevyontheriver]

How can those figures be accurate if I’ve never had a condom fail and I’ve used them hundreds of times? I mean maybe these failures are due to using an old condom that has been in someone’s wallet for a few years? But there’s no way that 15% of condoms fail. That’s definitely not an accurate number.

It's the standard user failure rate for condoms, has been consistent for years, as reported by Planned Parenthood and just about every other source. Please note that this is the 'user rate' and not the 'theoretical' rate if all users were perfect, which they are not. You do not need to believe this for it to be true. I mean, if you don't believe Planned Parenthood, who ya gonna believe?

 

[chevyontheriver]

I’m a nondenominational but who cares what a certain denomination says about contraceptives? What does the Bible say about them? Nothing at all, but if you take into consideration how many children people had in biblical times it’s pretty obvious that we are not expected to have a child every time we have sex. I don’t know of any biblical characters who had 40-50 children. So evidently they “pulled out” which is no more morally incorrect than using a condom or birth control.

Nondenominational so the community you belong to has no roots even to 1930. So you have zero denominational history on how faithful Christians in generations before you understood what was and wasn't moral. I've got almost two millenia of such experience to go on, and it tells something. We didn't just make all of this up last week.

The one person in the Bible who is identified as having 'pulled out' was Onan. How did that fare for him? Seeing as you reject everything but the Bible.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I’m a nondenominational but who cares what a certain denomination says about contraceptives? What does the Bible say about them? Nothing at all, but if you take into consideration how many children people had in biblical times it’s pretty obvious that we are not expected to have a child every time we have sex. I don’t know of any biblical characters who had 40-50 children. So evidently they “pulled out” which is no more morally incorrect than using a condom or birth control.

Your forgetting the role of women in producing children with your 40 - 50 children there..lol

First, a pregnancy lasts 9 months, second, exclusive breastfeeding can potentially delay ovulation for 6 months, even in some cases up to a year after birth.

So most children, even in the absence of birth control, is one every two years, and women have a more limited period of fertility than men, therefore 10 -12 children is about average for a healthy and fertile woman..

Lol @ 40-50.

 

[RaymondG]

You can still find plenty of doctors who say life begins are fertilization because it does.

Once again someone who believes scripture but puts man's wisdom above God's.
Thank you for being honest at least because most people on here are not.

The bible says that, After man was fully formed, Life began after breath of life went through his nostrils.

Do you desire for us to believe God, in this instance, or man? You seem to not be consistent with this idea.