The hypocrisy of being "pro-life"

[BNR32FAN]

I encourage you to delve in to the Theology of the Body. There is a lot of richness in that which could do us all well. I keep finding out new things in that which seem like they should have been obvious all along. We have been raised in a contraceptive culture. And it has actually messed up our thinking. Walking back from that takes some time and effort.

What is the harm in using a condom?

 

[RaymondG]

Why do you think murder is OK?

What do you call armed robbery in which the victim is killed? What do you call a home invasion in which the owner is killed? What do you say happened to the gang member who dies in a shootout?

Why would you group the innocent unborn, with the lives mentioned above? Why would you prefer that what happens to them be generalized so that we can say the same thing happens to gang members everyday?

Maybe someone thought that the unborn deserved a word that no one else can use.......A word that would differentiate what happens to them from what happens to gang members : Abortion.

Why do you wish to take their identity away, just like so many are willing to take away their opportunity to live?

Quoting your post, in full, as I did here....no one would even know that you are talking about unborn fetuses. I think you do them a disservice by replacing the name, given to describe the termination of the unborn, with words that fosters acceptance of your Beliefs instead.

Are we fighting for the unborn, or just trying to get people to believe what we believe? We have to make a choice.

 

[RaymondG]

Perhaps we should go back and ask once again. Do you see the human being in the womb of equal moral worth to the woman carrying the child.

So the pregnant woman decides the moral worth of other human beings?

Why is one person's moral worth dependent upon the OPINION of someone else?

Are you saying that, in the case that a mother would die as a result of carrying a fetus, how ever slim this chance maybe.... You would deem it right to put into law, because of your beliefs, that the woman should forced to carry the child, regardless of the size of her current family, because her moral worth is no greater than the worth of the child she would bear?

Do you feel that everyone should be force to make this choice because you believe it right.....and because you believe it right, no one else should be able to believe otherwise, and their choice should be removed?

And if you do not feel this is the way to go, your moral worth argument is nullified.......for there should be no case in which one life is favored over the other if you believe them both to be morally equivalent.

 

[RaymondG]

Incorrect. You were someone's choice. It could have gone either way according your logic.

Who choice was she? God's or mans? And have much choice do you believe God have in whether one lives or dies?

The Lord said "....I kill and I make alive..." Was He mistaken? Should He have added...."If the mother chooses?"

 

[Hazelelponi]

What do you call armed robbery in which the victim is killed? What do you call a home invasion in which the owner is killed? What do you say happened to the gang member who dies in a shootout?

Why would you group the innocent unborn, with the lives mentioned above? Why would you prefer that what happens to them be generalized so that we can say the same thing happens to gang members everyday?

Maybe someone thought that the unborn deserved a word that no one else can use.......A word that would differentiate what happens to them from what happens to gang members : Abortion.

Why do you wish to take their identity away, just like so many are willing to take away their opportunity to live?

Quoting your post, in full, as I did here....no one would even know that you are talking about unborn fetuses. I think you do them a disservice by replacing the name, given to describe the termination of the unborn, with words that fosters acceptance of your Beliefs instead.

Are we fighting for the unborn, or just trying to get people to believe what we believe? We have to make a choice.

Did the child make the knowing willful choice to be there?

If not then why does it deserve death on the basis of its existence alone?

 

[Hazelelponi]

Who choice was she? God's or mans? And have much choice do you believe God have in whether one lives or dies?

The Lord said "....I kill and I make alive..." Was He mistaken? Should He have added...."If the mother chooses?"

Yes, God kills and makes alive.. not man. To the pro-choice advocates they prefer they sit in God's seat, and they prefer that judgement to be theirs..

Do you think God will tarry overlong in working out His justice upon those who shed innocent blood and those who approve and assist in it being done?

 

[RaymondG]

I’ve “seen this movie before.”

Exactly. And the movie is a horror movie.

I've seen this movie too.. it's called Schindlers list.

The Sophie Scholl movie too.

WE cant have one conversation about protecting the unborn without people continuing to try an change the subject. First they try to change the name by avoiding the term "abortion" all together. Now we start talking about movies? Anything to take our minds off the unborn.

We have to make a choice.....fight for our feelings and beliefs.....Or fight for the unborn.

 

[Hazelelponi]

WE cant have one conversation about protecting the unborn without people continuing to try an change the subject. First they try to change the name by avoiding the term "abortion" all together. Now we start talking about movies? Anything to take our minds off the unborn.

We have to make a choice.....fight for our feelings and beliefs.....Or fight for the unborn.

We fight for the innocent BECAUSE we believe that our value as human beings are based in the God we believe in.

Otherwise it would be us running around killing all those we see as useless eaters.

 

[RaymondG]

Do you deem yourself better than the human race because of your beliefs? Are you less messed up than everyone else because of your view on this one topic....or how well you see and follow the words of the bible, as you see them?

What are you talking about?

Don't accuse me of saying things that I never said..

Just how messed up is the human race to see that as an excuse... really?

I'm rather surprised to hear this statement from a Christian..

Do you not see that your referring to others as messed up and stating your surprise from what you hear others Christians say, because of what they believe, can have implications that, at the very least, your opinions are more moral than theirs, and theirs are lesser, in some way, than yours?

Why cant we reason together without these kinds of statements?

 

[RaymondG]

Yes, God kills and makes alive.. not man. To the pro-choice advocates they prefer they sit in God's seat, and they prefer that judgement to be theirs..

To those who know God, they would know that no one can usurp God's authority, No one can sit in His seat. And it is near blasphemous to suggest this possibility.

Do you think God will tarry overlong in working out His justice upon those who shed innocent blood and those who approve and assist in it being done?

I believe it possible that we do not serve the same One. Therefore I understand your arguments. Go in peace.

 

[redleghunter]

Are you saying that, in the case that a mother would die as a result of carrying a fetus, how ever slim this chance maybe.... You would deem it right to put into law, because of your beliefs, that the woman should forced to carry the child, regardless of the size of her current family, because her moral worth is no greater than the worth of the child she would bear?

Do you feel that everyone should be force to make this choice because you believe it right.....and because you believe it right, no one else should be able to believe otherwise, and their choice should be removed?

And if you do not feel this is the way to go, your moral worth argument is nullified.......for there should be no case in which one life is favored over the other if you believe them both to be morally equivalent.

I no longer answer posts that start with “are you saying” when in fact what you quote does not indicate I’m saying that.

 

[Hazelelponi]

To those who know God, they would know that no one can usurp God's authority, No one can sit in His seat. And it is near blasphemous to suggest this possibility.

Yet every time they shed innocent blood they declare themselves God.

believe it possible that we do not serve the same One. Therefore I understand your arguments. Go in peace.

I would agree with you on this point. My God does not allow me to condone, encourage and enable the shedding of innocent blood..

 

[redleghunter]

WE cant have one conversation about protecting the unborn without people continuing to try an change the subject. First they try to change the name by avoiding the term "abortion" all together. Now we start talking about movies? Anything to take our minds off the unborn.

We have to make a choice.....fight for our feelings and beliefs.....Or fight for the unborn.

I don’t think any of the above actually makes sense to me.

 

[RaymondG]

We fight for the innocent BECAUSE we believe that our value as human beings are based in the God we believe in.

Otherwise it would be us running around killing all those we see as useless eaters.

You can fight for the innocent by likening their plights to those of murdered gang members, refusing to use the term giving specifically to them, and talking about famous movies.....and condemning those who have already had abortions....

I'll fight for them by talking about alternatives to abortion, and looking into how we can support adoption agencies, and increase awareness of them.

Im sure we can coexist, cant we?

 

[RaymondG]

Yet every time they shed innocent blood they declare themselves God.

Yet only you suggests that they are taking gods places.... I never heard of on, who had abortions say that they were being God.... Only you give them this power.

I would agree with you on this point. My God does not allow me to encourage and enable the shedding of innocent blood..

May we part in agreement then?

 

[RaymondG]

We fight for the innocent BECAUSE we believe that our value as human beings are based in the God we believe in.

Otherwise it would be us running around killing all those we see as useless eaters.

You are fighting for your own pride and beliefs. This is why you get emotional and are ready to send others to your hell and gods justice.

Just know that I was one that you fought for....and now that I am alive, you are ready to condemn me because I disagree with you.

I know I can speak for a few unborn.....those who are in the state that I WAS ONCE IN.... we do not desire your help, if it comes with the condition that I must believe everything you believe when we get older, , or face your wrath.

We desire help and love from those who will continue to give it even after we are born....and grow older.

Hence the topic : "the-hypocrisy-of-being-pro-life"

 

[98cwitr]

Over and over again so-called "pro-lifers" say two things that butt against each other:

1. Contraception is a form of abortion, especially the morning after pills (Plan B).
   
2. There is no reason to have an abortion because women can use contraception.

Uh, what? People want women to prevent unwanted pregnancies but not use the devices which were invented solely for that purpose. You can't have it both ways. If you do not want anybody to use contraception, you must love abortions of unwanted embryos and fetuses because using contraceptive pills and devices prevents them.

I also have seen "pro-lifers" speak out against mandatory sex education, which is the only way to make sure all girls and boys learn about contraception and abstinence. Again, if you want all girls and women to avoid having unwanted pregnancies, you must support this requirement for health teachers in every public and private school.

Reducing abortions will not happen by making them illegal. All that would do is make most abortions very dangerous, even life-threatening. It will not reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies. If you want the number of abortions to be nearly zero you must support everything that would effectively reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies because desperate women will seek untrained people to remove fetuses out of their bodies.

So what do you want, fewer unwanted pregnancies or a lot of sick women occupying jail cells?

I want neither. I want people to cease their sexual immorality that creates both these situations.

 

[Hazelelponi]

You can fight for the innocent by likening their plights to those of murdered gang members, refusing to use the term giving specifically to them, and talking about famous movies.....and condemning those who have already had abortions....

I'll fight for them by talking about alternatives to abortion, and looking into how we can support adoption agencies, and increase awareness of them.

Im sure we can coexist, cant we?

Speaking to what you've said of me in another post (I'm not quoting them all) I've "condemned" no one.

Mankind stands condemned already apart from Christ. I have no need to "condemn" anyone. Its my job to teach the truth and invite people to it.

So this doesn't mean I can't call the truth, true. Abortion is murder. Point blank. Yet, it's God who calls the killing of the innocent murder, not myself - all I'm doing is repeating what the Bible states clearly within the context of a Christian forum...

Not a real shocking place to hear God's truth from His Word.

Why would I vote or lend my voice in support of the murder of innocents in my country? That's consent to the act itself, and I cannot consent to the murder of innocent beings because I do not choose to be held responsible for what the world does, which God condemns. Because I do not choose to live in a society who doesn't value innocent life and seek to protect them.

The government's job is to defend the innocent and punish the evil doer. A society that has no objective, principled sense of right and wrong can never uphold a government in its main purpose.. and then when it fails, all manner of evil will be called good, as we see today.

We have in this thread a Christian who doesn't attend church (by her own admission), who doesn't believe the Bible is the word of God (in her own words) who doesn't have a clue, (again in her own words) what churches do for women who find themselves pregnant and in need, yet who, at the same time, wants to sit and call out Christian hypocrisy - when she doesn't even understand what Christians do, don't believe, or teach!

And you, will sit and attack Christians who dare to speak the truth concerning the errancy of a subjective valuation of a human beings moral worth, and say they don't worship your God..

Lol.. that's a joke. I swear sometimes I wonder if there isn't a hidden camera somewhere waiting to tell me that this is all a joke..

 

[GodLovesCats]

You said the Bible was written by men for cultural and psychological purposes. It's not. It's God's very word given by God to godly men for people.

You misread me. I was talking about why humans are separated from "animals" despite biologically being members of the animal kingdom.

If you believe we are God's own creations that God created in His own Image why on earth are you here on a Christian forum saying that mankind can kill that image bearing life if she determines that Image bearing life holds no subjective moral value to her personally when it was God whom created that child and that child holds objective moral value to Him?

"Can" means able, not should. I never said it is right for her to put no value on her unborn baby. I think a problem pro-lifers have is lacking the understanding that in the mind of a raped girl or woman, unwanted babies are not always considered morally worthy. Although moral worth is objective, they can easily think it is subjective.

Please give me Biblical reasoning that says mankind has the right to sit in God's judgement seat and kill any it desires to kill for any reason mankind might decide appropriate.

I don't go that far, not even close. I no longer support elective abortions after the first trimester. That's a result of posting here in the CF Abortions forum. The reason I continue to support early elective abortions has been made clear: people are not helping women get what they need during their pregnancies and the government forcing them to endure those problems is always immoral. Just banning abortions is wrong. I strongly believe the government has a moral obligation to help pregnant women get what they need now, not just threaten to lock them up if they choose to end their pregnancies. It is about respect.

 

[Hazelelponi]

You misread me. I was talking about why humans are separated from "animals" despite biologically being members of the animal kingdom.


"Can" means able, not should. I never said it is right for her to put no value on her unborn baby. I think a problem pro-lifers have is lacking the understanding that in the mind of a raped girl or woman, unwanted babies are not always considered morally worthy. Although moral worth is objective, they can easily think it is subjective.


I don't go that far, not even close. I no longer support elective abortions after the first trimester. That's a result of posting here in the CF Abortions forum. The reason I continue to support early elective abortions has been made clear: people are not helping women get what they need during their pregnancies and the government forcing them to endure those problems is always immoral. Just banning abortions is wrong. I strongly believe the government has a moral obligation to help pregnant women get what they need now, not just threaten to lock them up if they choose to end their pregnancies. It is about respect.

Why does the government have a moral obligation to do anything but protect the innocent and punish the evil doer. That's the job of government, protecting the innocent and punishing the evil doer. If you run out and murder someone, the government has no moral obligation other than to implement justice for the crime you commit...

Just because people live without getting killed, doesn't obligate the government to provide the support of those who were never murdered.

The government has a job definition, it's not to provide support for the people, but rather, it's to provide an environment that is safe for people to live and work in.

The rest is on us, as people. This is where faith and faith groups make real differences in the lives of people who are struggling in some way.. even some atheists have began charitable organizations now, where previously only people of faith operated.

Young women can temporarily join Catholic convents in order to quietly have pregnancies and give birth, there are multitudes of adoption agencies who will help young women get medical care and housing during and after their pregnancies..

There are all kinds of government programs for the impoverished that assist with medical and housing. .

If a woman cannot provide support for a child she bears, the responsible thing is to give her child an adoptive home where the child has two parents who are financially able to provide for the child, who perhaps cannot have any children of their own..

But there are all manner of resources that a young woman can avail herself of for all manner of help, from the medical to the housing to clothing and more.

I'm unsure the big difficulty you have with this. It's been pointed out time and again all that is available and again and again you keep up with arguments that ignores all that - at some point one wonders why?

Rape and a child hit home for me when my daughter lost her virginity via a horrific rape, (and it truly was horrific) and I was behind her and supportive of her in every way humanly possible - giving everything for both my daughter and my grandchild that was born out of that rape.

I find it unimaginable that the accusation is that there are in excess of 60 million women over the last 50 years in one of the wealthiest nations in the world that couldn't find help and/or adoptive families, especially since there are waiting lists for children to adopt, some people never getting a child..

So, I find your accusations of the hypocrisy of Christians disingenuous since I see nothing but people who do all they can to help.