AD 622 to AD 1922 – seventh beast empire?

[Christian Gedge]

This topic is a continuation of my AD 70 to AD 622 thread, and gives an overview of the ‘little horn’ of Daniel 7, also counted as the 7th ‘head’ in Revelation.

In this thread I hope to harmonise Daniel 7 with Revelation. But before that, please consider the above map again. It shows ten distinct regions within Rome's former boundaries. Three of them are displaced by the Islamic caliphate.

 

[Douggg]

View attachment 271437


This topic is a continuation of my AD 70 to AD 622 thread, and gives an overview of the ‘little horn’ of Daniel 7, also counted as the 7th ‘head’ in Revelation.

In this thread I hope to harmonise Daniel 7 with Revelation. But before that, please consider the above map again. It shows ten distinct regions within Rome's former boundaries. Three of them are displaced by the Islamic caliphate.

Gedge, the little horn person will be the seventh king (it does not say kingdom) in Revelation 17. In Daniel 7, that person comes out of the fourth empire.

The historist view can never work because of the 3 1/2 days in Revelation 11 that the two witnesses bodies will lay dead in the street of Jerusalem, before the world witnesses them come back to life and ascend to heaven. Which, in turn, means the 1260 days cannot be made into 1260 years.

And could not have ever been historic because the means for the world to witness the two witnesses come back to life was not technologically possible. The events are end times, our time, when there is live TV, and you tube, and the internet.

Look at where you are sitting. In front of a computer screen, typing away on your keyboard. We are at the end of the age.

 

[sovereigngrace]

View attachment 271437


This topic is a continuation of my AD 70 to AD 622 thread, and gives an overview of the ‘little horn’ of Daniel 7, also counted as the 7th ‘head’ in Revelation.

In this thread I hope to harmonise Daniel 7 with Revelation. But before that, please consider the above map again. It shows ten distinct regions within Rome's former boundaries. Three of them are displaced by the Islamic caliphate.

I am sorry bro, but if you were to get 10 Historists into a room, they would come to completely different conclusions. This is all too subjective for me. One can make history say anything you want. It is all speculative, and personal opinion. This is exactly why i am not an Historist.

 

[Christian Gedge]

10 end-timers of all varieties I would suggest. It's not a hill I would die on, but there is support for this view. I will be adding scripture and quotes from middle-ages martyrs soon.

 

[Christian Gedge]

When we seek additional information on Daniel 7, our New Testament source is Revelation 12, 13, and 17. It’s all about the ‘beast’ and is filled with the same imagery as its Old Testament counterpart. However, several difficulties immediately present themselves.

• Revelation has 1 beast; Daniel has 4
• Revelation has 7 heads; Daniel has none

The reason for the difference is that Revelation uses the term ‘beast’ (singular) to include all of them. The ‘beast’ is the aggregation of world power arising from the ‘sea’ of nations, with its source as Satan. (Rev 13:3, Luke 4:5-6)

Daniel separates each manifestation as they arise and calls each one a ‘beast’, whereas Revelation uses the term ‘heads’ as the empires, as one follows the other.

After realising this, I was able to marry the two books into a single timeline that answered a lot of questions that I had. ‘Hope it helps.

 

[Christian Gedge]

Please take a look at the timeline. Notice the four ‘beasts’ of Daniel equal ‘heads’ 3, 4, 5, and 6 of Revelation.

 

[sovereigngrace]

10 end-timers of all varieties I would suggest. It's not a hill I would die on, but there is support for this view. I will be adding scripture and quotes from middle-ages martyrs soon.

Historicism was a view I seriously considered 20 years ago, but it was far too subjective for my liking. Those I knew argued completely different to you. Idealism is more objective, easier to understand and fits easier with other Scripture. It also seems to have more across the board agreement. It limits speculationism.

 

[Christian Gedge]

Old style historicists argue differently to me because they have a system called the ‘year-day’ theory. (1260 days = 1260 years) It gave rise to foolish predictions. However, I have rejected that aspect.

My new-style historicism is less speculative than you might think. I have laid out historical facts and shown them on clear maps. I have included the entire Roman Empire territory and not just the west. I have made a credible connection between Daniel and Revelation. Please check out the last chart.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Old style historicists argue differently to me because they have a system called the ‘year-day’ theory. (1260 days = 1260 years) It gave rise to foolish predictions. However, I have rejected that aspect.

My new-style historicism is less speculative than you might think. I have laid out historical facts and shown them on clear maps. I have included the entire Roman Empire territory and not just the west. I have made a credible connection between Daniel and Revelation. Please check out the last chart.

I respect you and your research. I agree with you in most of your findings on eschatology. But I could never be a Historist with any conviction. It is too wide open to interpretation. Idealism makes more biblical sense and is easily supported with multiple Scripture. It whole foundation is supporting Scripture with Scripture, rather than measured speculations.

Each generation of Historists has to change the blueprint because history takes over and lasts longer.

 

[jgr]

Old style historicists argue differently to me because they have a system called the ‘year-day’ theory. (1260 days = 1260 years) It gave rise to foolish predictions. However, I have rejected that aspect.

Jesus used it.

Luke 13
31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee.
32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

 

[Christian Gedge]

Looking at the timeline in post #6, lets start with what everyone agrees on! Daniel, during the Babylon era, prophecies of 4 ‘beasts’. “These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth.” (Daniel 7:17)

John, during the Roman era, has one beast but with 7 ‘heads’. “This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains … they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is.” (Revelation 17:9-10) In John’s case he starts with an earlier world power (5 have fallen), and his “one is” refers to the empire in existence as he speaks.

So, putting both prophecies together, we agree on the empire timeline so far, yes?

1. Egypt
2. Assyria
3. Babylon
4. Medo-Persia
5. Greece
6. Rome

 

[sovereigngrace]

Looking at the timeline in post #6, lets start with what everyone agrees on! Daniel, during the Babylon era, prophecies of 4 ‘beasts’. “These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth.” (Daniel 7:17)

John, during the Roman era, has one beast but with 7 ‘heads’. “This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains … they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is.” (Revelation 17:9-10) In John’s case he starts with an earlier world power (5 have fallen), and his “one is” refers to the empire in existence as he speaks.

So, putting both prophecies together, we agree on the empire timeline so far, yes?

1. Egypt
2. Assyria
3. Babylon
4. Medo-Persia
5. Greece
6. Rome

I agree!

 

[Christian Gedge]

Thanks SG. I think everyone is on the same page up to Rome. The problem arises from that point onwards, but it should not be so. Daniel is crystal clear when he says:

“Out of this kingdom (Rome) ten kings shall arise.” (Daniel 7:24)

With the exception of Preterists, who want to bend the prophecy into AD 70, all commentators take it to mean kings of kingdoms – not emperors of Rome. For example, Irenaeus said, “… concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel.” (Against Heresies, 5.26.1)

Then there are the Futurists, who toss the prophecy (as they love to do) into the future. I’m sure you are not one of those, so what are you going to do? How are you going to interpret Daniel 7:24? I haven’t done anything tricky here. I simply followed historical developments through the 5th – 6th century and ended up with ten kingdoms!

Take, for example Italy. Rome fell in AD 476, was briefly held by the Huruls, then the Ostrogoths, then the Lombards in AD 568. From about this time everything settled down in the old Roman boundaries to ten kingdoms, lasting like that for over 100 years.

I think my little theory is quite reasonable. No?

 

[Douggg]

View attachment 271460


Please take a look at the timeline. Notice the four ‘beasts’ of Daniel equal ‘heads’ 3, 4, 5, and 6 of Revelation.

Gedge, by slight of hand you have made the 6th kingdom of your chart, the fourth kingdom of Daniel 7. The fallacy is you chose different starting points for your counting (plus changing the text of Revelation 17:10 to be both kings and kingdoms)

This reminds me of...

 

[Douggg]

View attachment 271460


Please take a look at the timeline. Notice the four ‘beasts’ of Daniel equal ‘heads’ 3, 4, 5, and 6 of Revelation.

Gedge, I don't see the 1260 days, the 42 months, the 3 1/2 days, the time, times, half time of Revelation on your chart.

 

[Douggg]

So, putting both prophecies together, we agree on the empire timeline so far, yes?

1. Egypt
2. Assyria
3. Babylon
4. Medo-Persia
5. Greece
6. Rome

In Daniel 7, the four beasts in the text represent both kingdoms and kings. In Revelation 17, not so, the 7 heads as said to be 7 kings (not kings and kingdoms). With the beast as whole being the eighth king having been one of the 7 heads.

 

[Andrewn]

Idealism is more objective, easier to understand and fits easier with other Scripture. It also seems to have more across the board agreement. It limits speculationism.

How is idealism more objective?

 

[sovereigngrace]

How is idealism more objective?

Sorry, I missed this. It is not entangled in speculationism in regard to identifying the broad symbolic detail of Revelation with exact historic events. They see them as broader realities pertaining to the great spiritual conflict between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Thanks SG. I think everyone is on the same page up to Rome. The problem arises from that point onwards, but it should not be so. Daniel is crystal clear when he says:

With the exception of Preterists, who want to bend the prophecy into AD 70, all commentators take it to mean kings of kingdoms – not emperors of Rome. For example, Irenaeus said, “… concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel.” (Against Heresies, 5.26.1)

Then there are the Futurists, who toss the prophecy (as they love to do) into the future. I’m sure you are not one of those, so what are you going to do? How are you going to interpret Daniel 7:24?

I totally agree with this!

 

[sovereigngrace]

Thanks SG. I think everyone is on the same page up to Rome. The problem arises from that point onwards, but it should not be so. Daniel is crystal clear when he says:

With the exception of Preterists, who want to bend the prophecy into AD 70, all commentators take it to mean kings of kingdoms – not emperors of Rome. For example, Irenaeus said, “… concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel.” (Against Heresies, 5.26.1)

Then there are the Futurists, who toss the prophecy (as they love to do) into the future. I’m sure you are not one of those, so what are you going to do? How are you going to interpret Daniel 7:24? I haven’t done anything tricky here. I simply followed historical developments through the 5th – 6th century and ended up with ten kingdoms!

Take, for example Italy. Rome fell in AD 476, was briefly held by the Huruls, then the Ostrogoths, then the Lombards in AD 568. From about this time everything settled down in the old Roman boundaries to ten kingdoms, lasting like that for over 100 years.

I think my little theory is quite reasonable. No?

I had to take the last line out of my previous quote from you because I am not yet convinced of the 10 kingdoms. Sorry! I should have done that before making my statement. I was not trying to be misleading.