AD 70 to AD 622 – prophecy unfolding?

[jgr]

In your eschatological scheme, is there a role for the first 3 beasts after their empires collapsed by they were not completely destroyed?

Sorry, could you reword your question.

 

[Christian Gedge]

At the same time as 10 kingdoms had consolidated within the boundaries of the former Empire (see posts #56 and #57), an obscure Arab prophet had a vision. It was the year AD 610 and he claimed to have flown on a dazzling winged steed to Jerusalem, where he met Abraham, Moses and Jesus. He led them in prayer before ascending into heaven to receive instructions from Allah. Who could take it seriously? Yet within several years Mohammed and the angel that accompanied him created a lethal brand of religion and power that would sweep through the world.

In AD 622 Islam burst on the scene. Islam embarked on conquest that created a massive new empire, even bigger than the ones before it.

Before discussing the 3 uprooted ‘horns’, I would like to share an interesting clue from Daniel. Islam is dated from 16 July 622 because that was the start of the Hegira. The Hegira is a purely lunar calendar and has been in used from then until now. The clue is found in here: “He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the law.” (Daniel 7:25)

I believe this predication was directly fulfilled when Mohammad forced his calendar into being, as a compulsory alternative to our Christian calendar, and as an alternative to the Jewish luni-solar one. Question: Do you have any other good theories for this ‘changing of the times’ prophecy?

 

[jgr]

At the same time as 10 kingdoms had consolidated within the boundaries of the former Empire (see posts #56 and #57), an obscure Arab prophet had a vision. It was the year AD 610 and he claimed to have flown on a dazzling winged steed to Jerusalem, where he met Abraham, Moses and Jesus. He led them in prayer before ascending into heaven to receive instructions from Allah. Who could take it seriously? Yet within several years Mohammed and the angel that accompanied him created a lethal brand of religion and power that would sweep through the world.

In AD 622 Islam burst on the scene. Islam embarked on conquest that created a massive new empire, even bigger than the ones before it.

Before discussing the 3 uprooted ‘horns’, I would like to share an interesting clue from Daniel. Islam is dated from 16 July 622 because that was the start of the Hegira. The Hegira is a purely lunar calendar and has been in used from then until now. The clue is found in here: “He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the law.” (Daniel 7:25)

I believe this predication was directly fulfilled when Mohammad forced his calendar into being, as a compulsory alternative to our Christian calendar, and as an alternative to the Jewish luni-solar one. Question: Do you have any other good theories for this ‘changing of the times’ prophecy?

For the Reformers, it was not theory, but reality.

John Wycliffe
Why is it necessary in unbelief to look for another Antichrist? Hence in the seventh chapter of Daniel Antichrist is forcefully described by a horn arising in the time of the 4th kingdom. For it grew from [among] our powerful ones, more horrible, more cruel, and more greedy, because by reckoning the pagans and our Christians by name, a lesser [greater?] struggle for the temporals is not recorded in any preceding time. Therefore the ten horns are the whole of our temporal rulers, and the horn has arisen from the ten horns, having eyes and a mouth speaking great things against the Lofty One, and wearing out the saints of the Most High, and thinking that he is able to change times and laws.

Adam Clarke
Appointing fasts and feasts; canonizing persons whom he chooses to call saints; granting pardons and indulgences for sins; instituting new modes of worship utterly unknown to the Christian Church; new articles of faith; new rules of practice; and reversing, with pleasure, the laws both of God and man.

John Gill
to alter the forms and constitutions of kingdoms, and the customs and usages of them; yea, to set up and pull down kings at pleasure; see (Daniel 2:21) , or to change the use of times and seasons, by setting apart days as holy for canonized saints; and appointing such days in a week, and such a season in the year, for abstinence from meats; and even to change the laws of God and man, by dispensing with both, and making new ones of his own.

 

[Marilyn C]

So? Not sure what your point is.

It was to show that those beastly kingdom/Federations were operating at the same time. For the last beastly power to tread down, break in pieces those other powers they must be around at the same time.

 

[Marilyn C]

The first 3 beasts, Babylonian and Persian and Seleucid Empires, are humbled, but not destroyed like the fourth beast, Roman Empire. Their dominion was taken away from them, but they were permitted to remain alive; i.e. the Gentile powers, represented by the beasts, were to survive for a while as nations, though deprived of empire. The period of life allotted to them by God was only a little while. (based on Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges.)

All those historic Kingdoms were all judged by God and are no more. Their rulership is gone.

`You have been weighed in the balances and found wanting.....Your kingdom has been divided and given to the Medes and Persians...` (Dan. 5: 27 & 28)

God judged them. Gone, no more.

 

[Marilyn C]

You overlooked or ignored the word in the verse that I specifically highlighted: "before".

It tells us that the kingdoms were not coexistent.

Nor is there any evidence that "residue" denotes or connotes four coexistent kingdoms.

Each beastly Kingdom/Federation came up one at a time. That is why it says `before.` The lion & eagle`s wings, came up, and then the bear and then the Leopard and finally the terrifying beast.

That is exactly the order that the contemporary beastly powers came up (3) and one to yet emerge.

1. Lion (British Empire) Eagle`s wings, (America) (after Napoleonic war)
2. Bear (Soviet Union) (after WW1)
3. Leopard (European Union) (after WW2)
4. Terrifying Beast (after the Russian War)

 

[Marilyn C]

Back to the O.P AD 70 to AD 622 – prophecy unfolding?



Here is where it gets really interesting. It took about a century for the dust to settle after western Rome’s breakup (AD 476) and during this time some of the migrating tribes were swallowed up by their neighbours. For example, the Burgundians were incorporated into the Frankish kingdom. As you know, Burgundy has been a province of France right up to this day. So, by AD 600 there were (you guessed it) exactly 10 geo-political regions inside the boundaries of the former Roman Empire.

And these 10 regions all work together in the future? Amazing! I don`t think so and I don`t see them becoming ONE Federation, the `terrifying beastly power.`

Can you see Britain, Europe, North Africa, Syria, Israel, Egypt etc all coming together. No way. Remember that the 10 kings are led by the one who wants to get rid of Israel. So those 10 regions are not the ones.

 

[pasifika]

Hi pasifika,

Certainly. The emblems tell you who they are.

1. Lion - a monarch, wings - empirical.

View attachment 271321

The Eagle. The wings were broken off the lion, indicating that this power came from the lion.

View attachment 271322

2. Bear - and not a cuddly one at that but a ferocious one.

View attachment 271323

3. The Leopard - this emblem was on their shields.

View attachment 271324

4. The terrifying beast - led by the Assyrian, (Islam)

Hello Marilyn,
The first beast was the kingdom who defeated Nebuchadnezza of Babylonian Daniel 2:30, so that could not be the British Empire...

 

[Andrewn]

Sorry, could you reword your question.

The first 3 beasts, Babylonian and Persian and Seleucid Empires, are humbled, but not destroyed like the fourth beast, Roman Empire. They were permitted to survive for a while as nations. Why, do you think, this is? Do you think they will have a renewed role in history?

For example, I notice that the area occupied by those empires overlap with the historical Islamic Empires / Caliphates. Also, they're included in the list of nations associated with Gog & Magog. Is this relevant or just by accident?

If this is relevant, it may mean that theories about the revival of the Roman Empire are wrong and that future wars and antichrist (s) would rather involve the Middle East region?

Who is the person referred to in post #63? Is it the Caliphate or the RCC?

 

[Andrewn]

-

 

[claninja]

I accept that both words are used in the original text. However, it’s not necessary to force a very literalistic interpretation on them when Daniel and Revelation are so often using hyperbolic language. That’s a stunt futurists play, and the Preterist plays it too when it suits.

And yet when we look at Daniel 7:24, it clearly states out of this "kingdom" 10 "kings" would arise. It does not say out of this "kingdom" 10 "kingdoms" would arise. There is a clear difference in the language.

Daniel 7:24 (ESV) As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom (malku) ten kings (melek) shall arise

It seems that all theological beliefs play into the same stunt, some preterists believing the horns are kings of the roman empire, some futurists believe the 10 horns to be the european union, and some historicists believing the 10 horns to be 10 territories and/or kingdoms that came from the roman empire. I would argue all of these beliefs are pure speculation, as scripture doesn't exactly tell us.

The 10 horns of the 4th beast in Daniel remind me of the final 70th week Daniel 9, in that it often distracts believers into speculation.

IMO, The key verse of the 70 weeks of Daniel is verse 24. Since we now have the NT, and the NT is very clear that the 6 points of verse 24 were fulfilled with Christ's 1st coming, we can then understand that the final week's parabolic language points to Christ. And so understanding verse 24 as being fulfilled with Christ shapes our belief of the final week. However, many futurists often ignore the importance Daniel 9:24 or try to find all kinds of ways they are not yet fulfilled, despite the NT clearly stating them all fulfilled, which leads to all kinds of speculations on the 70th week. I'm sure we can agree on this point, as your writings on the 70 weeks are fantastic

So I would argue it is also with the vision of the 4 beasts in daniel 7. The 10 horns and little horn, and the time, times, and half a time, often distract believers.

Since we now have the NT, the key verse no longer becomes the "10 horns, little horn, or time, times, and half a time". No, the key verse becomes Daniel 7:17-18. This verse specifically tells us, without the distraction of the 10 horns or little horn, that the there would be ONLY 4 kingdoms that would come out of the earth, but the saints receive the kingdom and possess it forever.

Daniel 7:17-18 (LXX) These four beasts are four kingdoms (basileiai) [that] shall rise up on the earth: which shall be taken away; and the saints of the Most High shall take the kingdom (basileian), and possess it for ever and ever.

As we can see per the NT, the kingdom of God was to come in the 1st century and the believers were to receive it in the 1st century. And this was clearly during the 4th earthly kingdom (rome).

Hebrews 12:22 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe

Matthew 16:28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Matthew 21:43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.

Colossians 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,

Acts 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit

2 timothy 4:18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safely into his heavenly kingdom.

Luke 21:31-32 So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that the kingdom of God is near. Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all has taken place.


So just as our understanding of the 70th week is shaped by our belief that Christ fulfilled the 6 points of Daniel 9:24, so to should our understanding of the 10 horns, the little horn, and time, times, and half a time be shaped by coming of the kingdom of God, which came in the 1st century, during the 4th empire, as clearly stated by the NT.

Surely, this is another case where the same word (melek) means ‘Greece’ in the 1st instance, and ‘Alexander’ in the 2nd instant. That’s how I understand it anyway.

It's absolutely possible, however, the key verse uses specific language to differentiate between kingdom and kings.


Daniel 7:24 (ESV) As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom (malku) ten kings (melek) shall arise

 

[claninja]

Yes, melek means king, royal and malkuw means kingdom, kingly, realm, reign. But in ancient and modern culture the king and his kingdom are synonymous. You are not grasping that.

Good, I am glad we can find common ground in melek meaning kings and malku meaning kingdom.

But you're wrong, I can grasp the kings and kingdoms can be synonymous. A great example of this comes from Daniel 2, King Nebuchadnezzar is literally called the head of Gold. The head of Gold is also the Babylonian empire.

Daniel 2:38 and into whose hand he has given, wherever they dwell, the children of man, the beasts of the field, and the birds of the heavens, making you rule over them all—you are the head of gold.

However, the language of Daniel 7 is very specific, out this 'kingdom' (malku) 10 'kings' (melek) would arise.

Daniel 7:24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings shall arise, and another shall arise after them; he shall be different from the former ones,and shall put down three kings.


So let's look at a key verse, without the distractions of the 10 horns. How many kingdoms would there be until the saints would possess the kingdom?

Daniel 7:17-18 ‘These four great beasts are four kingdoms who shall arise out of the earth. But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, forever and ever.’

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said: ‘As for the fourth beast, there shall be a fourth kingdom on earth,


This should help us in determining whether the 10 horns that arise from the beast are kingdoms or kings.

 

[pasifika]

And yet when we look at Daniel 7:24, it clearly states out of this "kingdom" 10 "kings" would arise. It does not say out of this "kingdom" 10 "kingdoms" would arise. There is a clear difference in the language.

Daniel 7:24 (ESV) As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom (malku) ten kings (melek) shall arise

It seems that all theological beliefs play into the same stunt, some preterists believing the horns are kings of the roman empire, some futurists believe the 10 horns to be the european union, and some historicists believing the 10 horns to be 10 territories and/or kingdoms that came from the roman empire. I would argue all of these beliefs are pure speculation, as scripture doesn't exactly tell us.

The 10 horns of the 4th beast in Daniel remind me of the final 70th week Daniel 9, in that it often distracts believers into speculation.

IMO, The key verse of the 70 weeks of Daniel is verse 24. Since we now have the NT, and the NT is very clear that the 6 points of verse 24 were fulfilled with Christ's 1st coming, we can then understand that the final week's parabolic language points to Christ. And so understanding verse 24 as being fulfilled with Christ shapes our belief of the final week. However, many futurists often ignore the importance Daniel 9:24 or try to find all kinds of ways they are not yet fulfilled, despite the NT clearly stating them all fulfilled, which leads to all kinds of speculations on the 70th week. I'm sure we can agree on this point, as your writings on the 70 weeks are fantastic

So I would argue it is also with the vision of the 4 beasts in daniel 7. The 10 horns and little horn, and the time, times, and half a time, often distract believers.

Since we now have the NT, the key verse no longer becomes the "10 horns, little horn, or time, times, and half a time". No, the key verse becomes Daniel 7:17-18. This verse specifically tells us, without the distraction of the 10 horns or little horn, that the there would be ONLY 4 kingdoms that would come out of the earth, but the saints receive the kingdom and possess it forever.

Daniel 7:17-18 (LXX) These four beasts are four kingdoms (basileiai) [that] shall rise up on the earth: which shall be taken away; and the saints of the Most High shall take the kingdom (basileian), and possess it for ever and ever.

As we can see per the NT, the kingdom of God was to come in the 1st century and the believers were to receive it in the 1st century. And this was clearly during the 4th earthly kingdom (rome).

Hebrews 12:22 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe

Matthew 16:28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Matthew 21:43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.

Colossians 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,

Acts 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit

2 timothy 4:18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safely into his heavenly kingdom.

Luke 21:31-32 So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that the kingdom of God is near. Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all has taken place.


So just as our understanding of the 70th week is shaped by our belief that Christ fulfilled the 6 points of Daniel 9:24, so to should our understanding of the 10 horns, the little horn, and time, times, and half a time be shaped by coming of the kingdom of God, which came in the 1st century, during the 4th empire, as clearly stated by the NT.




It's absolutely possible, however, the key verse uses specific language to differentiate between kingdom and kings.


Daniel 7:24 (ESV) As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom (malku) ten kings (melek) shall arise

Hello, 70 weeks prophecy is not about Christ only but about the people and their holy city...
Daniel 9:24...seventy sevens are decreed for your people and your holy city...

So, my question to you and All those who claim that the 70 weeks prophecy already fulfilled is;

• Has all the 6 points (Daniel 9:24) fulfilled in the people of God? Really?

I know Jesus fulfilled all for us, But has it been fulfilled in His people already? That is what the 70 weeks prophecy is about....what Jesus has done is been fulfilled in the people..

Meaning,

1. do we still transgress against God's law?
2. We don't sin anymore?
3. We already received everlasting life? etc...

 

[sovereigngrace]

And yet when we look at Daniel 7:24, it clearly states out of this "kingdom" 10 "kings" would arise. It does not say out of this "kingdom" 10 "kingdoms" would arise. There is a clear difference in the language.

Daniel 7:24 (ESV) As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom (malku) ten kings (melek) shall arise

It seems that all theological beliefs play into the same stunt, some preterists believing the horns are kings of the roman empire, some futurists believe the 10 horns to be the european union, and some historicists believing the 10 horns to be 10 territories and/or kingdoms that came from the roman empire. I would argue all of these beliefs are pure speculation, as scripture doesn't exactly tell us.

The 10 horns of the 4th beast in Daniel remind me of the final 70th week Daniel 9, in that it often distracts believers into speculation.

IMO, The key verse of the 70 weeks of Daniel is verse 24. Since we now have the NT, and the NT is very clear that the 6 points of verse 24 were fulfilled with Christ's 1st coming, we can then understand that the final week's parabolic language points to Christ. And so understanding verse 24 as being fulfilled with Christ shapes our belief of the final week. However, many futurists often ignore the importance Daniel 9:24 or try to find all kinds of ways they are not yet fulfilled, despite the NT clearly stating them all fulfilled, which leads to all kinds of speculations on the 70th week. I'm sure we can agree on this point, as your writings on the 70 weeks are fantastic

So I would argue it is also with the vision of the 4 beasts in daniel 7. The 10 horns and little horn, and the time, times, and half a time, often distract believers.

Since we now have the NT, the key verse no longer becomes the "10 horns, little horn, or time, times, and half a time". No, the key verse becomes Daniel 7:17-18. This verse specifically tells us, without the distraction of the 10 horns or little horn, that the there would be ONLY 4 kingdoms that would come out of the earth, but the saints receive the kingdom and possess it forever.

Daniel 7:17-18 (LXX) These four beasts are four kingdoms (basileiai) [that] shall rise up on the earth: which shall be taken away; and the saints of the Most High shall take the kingdom (basileian), and possess it for ever and ever.

As we can see per the NT, the kingdom of God was to come in the 1st century and the believers were to receive it in the 1st century. And this was clearly during the 4th earthly kingdom (rome).

Hebrews 12:22 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe

Matthew 16:28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Matthew 21:43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.

Colossians 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,

Acts 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit

2 timothy 4:18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safely into his heavenly kingdom.

Luke 21:31-32 So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that the kingdom of God is near. Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all has taken place.


So just as our understanding of the 70th week is shaped by our belief that Christ fulfilled the 6 points of Daniel 9:24, so to should our understanding of the 10 horns, the little horn, and time, times, and half a time be shaped by coming of the kingdom of God, which came in the 1st century, during the 4th empire, as clearly stated by the NT.




It's absolutely possible, however, the key verse uses specific language to differentiate between kingdom and kings.


Daniel 7:24 (ESV) As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom (malku) ten kings (melek) shall arise

So who are the 10 kings and when did they manifest?

 

[jgr]

Each beastly Kingdom/Federation came up one at a time. That is why it says `before.` The lion & eagle`s wings, came up, and then the bear and then the Leopard and finally the terrifying beast.

That is exactly the order that the contemporary beastly powers came up (3) and one to yet emerge.

1. Lion (British Empire) Eagle`s wings, (America) (after Napoleonic war)
2. Bear (Soviet Union) (after WW1)
3. Leopard (European Union) (after WW2)
4. Terrifying Beast (after the Russian War)

Jerome's exposition of the four kingdoms of Daniel 7, all historical.

Verse 4. "The first beast was like a lioness and possessed the wings of an eagle. I beheld until her wings were torn away, and she was raised upright from the ground and stood on her feet like a human being, and she was given a human heart." The kingdom of the Babylonians was not called a lion but a lioness, on account of its brutality and cruelty, or else because of its luxurious, lust-serving manner of life. [Actually Jerome errs in rendering 'aryeh as lioness, for it is the regular masculine form for "lion" in Aramaic, "lioness" being 'aryuta'. Perhaps Jerome mistook the he in the unpointed text before him as the common feminine ending----ah. Or else he simply relied uncritically upon the Septuagint, which commits the same error.] For writers upon the natural history of beasts assert that lionesses are fiercer than |73 lions, especially if they are nursing their cubs, and constantly are passionate in their desire for sexual relations. And as for the fact that she possessed eagle's wings, this indicates the pride of the all-powerful kingdom, the ruler of which declares in Isaiah: "Above the stars of heaven will I place my throne, and I shall be like unto the Most High" (Isa. 14). Therefore he is told: "Though thou be borne on high like an eagle, thence will I drag thee down" (Obad.). Moreover, just as the lion occupies kingly rank among beasts, so also the eagle among the birds. But it should also be said that the eagle enjoys a long span of life, and that the kingdom of Assyrians had held sway for many generations. And as for the fact that the wings of the lioness or eagle were torn away, this signifies the other kingdoms over which it had ruled and soared about in the world. "And she was raised up," he says, "from the ground"; which means, of course (C), that the Chaldean empire was overthrown. And as for what follows, "And she stood upon her feet like a human being, and she was given a human heart," if we understand this as applying to Nebuchadnezzar, it is very evident that after he lost his kingdom and his power had been taken away from him, and after he was once more restored to his original state, he not only learned to be a man instead of a lioness but he also received back the heart which he had lost. But if on the other hand this is to be understood as applying in a general way to the kingdom of the Chaldeans, then it signifies that after Belshazzar was slain [reading interfecto for the impossible inperfecto of the text], and the Medes and Persians succeeded to imperial power, then the men of Babylon realized that theirs was a frail and lowly nature after all. Note the order followed here: the lioness is equivalent to the golden head of the image [in chap. 2] (p. 529).

Verse 5. "And behold another beast like a bear stood up on one side; and there were three rows in his mouth and in his teeth; and they said to him: 'Arise up and devour flesh in abundance.' " The second beast resembling a bear is the same as that of which we read in the vision of the statue (2:32): "His chest and arms were of silver." In the former case the comparison was based on the hardness of the metal, in this case on the ferocity of the bear. For the Persian kingdom followed a rigorous and frugal manner of life (665) after the manner of the Spartans, and |74 that too to such an extent that they used to use salt and nasturtium-cress in their relish. Let us consult the record of the childhood of Cyrus the Great (i.e., "The Education or Training" of Cyrus) [Jerome refers here to Xenophon's "Cyropaideia"]. And as for the fact that the bear is said to have "stood up on one side," the Hebrews interpret it by saying that the Persians never perpetrated any cruelty against Israel. Hence they are described in the Prophecy of Zechariah also as white horses (Zech. 1). But as for the three rows or ranks that were in his mouth and between his teeth, one authority has interpreted this to mean that allusion was made to the fact that the Persian kingdom was divided up among three princes, just as we read in the sections dealing with Belshazzar and with Darius that there were three princes who were in charge of the one hundred and twenty satraps. But other commentators affirm that these were three kings of the Persians who were subsequent to Cyrus, and yet they fail to mention them by name (A). But we know that after Cyrus's reign of thirty years his son Cambyses ruled among the Persians, and his brothers the magi [the plural seems unwarranted, since there was but one brother involved, namely, Smerdis], and then Darius, in the second year of whose reign the rebuilding of the Temple was commenced at Jerusalem. The fifth king was Xerxes, the son of Darius; the sixth was Artabanus [actually only the assassin of Xerxes; he never became king]; the seventh, Artaxerxes who was surnamed Makrokheir, that is Longimanus ("Long-handed"); the eighth, (B) Xerxes; the ninth, Sogdianus [the reigns of the last two totaled no more than eight months]; the tenth, Darius surnamed Nothos ("Bastard"); the eleventh, the Artaxerxes called Mnemon, that is, "The Rememberer"; the twelfth, the other Artaxerxes, who himself received the surname of Ochus; the thirteenth, Arses, the son of Ochus; and the fourteenth, Darius the son of Arsamus, who was conquered by Alexander, the king of the Macedonians. How then can we say that these were three kings of the Persians? Of course we could select some who were especially cruel, but we cannot ascertain them on the basis of the historical accounts. Therefore the three rows in the mouth of the Persian kingdom and between its teeth we must take to be the three kingdoms of the Babylonians, the Medes, and the Persians, all of which were reduced to a single realm. And as for |75 the information, "And thus they spake to him: 'Devour flesh in abundance,' " this refers to the time when in the reign of the Ahasuerus whom the Septuagint calls Artaxerxes, the order was given, at the suggestion of Haman the Agagite, that all the Jews be slaughtered on a single day (Esth. 3). And very properly, instead of saying, "He was devouring them" the account specifies, "Thus they spake unto him...." This shows that the matter was only attempted, and was by no means ever carried out.

Verse 6. "After this I beheld, and lo, there was another beast (C) like unto a leopard, and it had jour wings of a bird (666) all its own [?the per se here is obscure], and there were four heads to the beast, and power was given to it." The third kingdom was that of the Macedonians, of which we read in connection with the image, "The belly and thighs were of bronze." It is compared to a leopard because it is very swift and hormetikos [impetuous], and it charges headlong to shed blood, and with a single bound rushes (p. 530) to its death. "And it had four wings...." There was never, after all, any victory won more quickly than Alexander's, for he traversed all the way from Illyricum and the Adriatic Sea to the Indian Ocean and the Ganges River, not merely fighting battles but winning decisive victories; and in six years he subjugated to his rule a portion of Europe and all of Asia. And by the four heads reference is made to his generals who subsequently rose up as successors to his royal power, namely Ptolemy, Seleucus, Philip [i.e., Philip Arrhidaeus, an illegitimate brother of Alexander, who was proclaimed king upon Alexander's death, but never exercised genuine power, and died after seven years], and Antigonus [the precursor of Seleucus in the rule of the Asiatic portion of Alexander's empire]. "And power was given to it" shows that the empire did not result from Alexander's bravery but from the will of God.

Verse 7. "After this, I beheld in the night-vision, and behold, there was a fourth beast, terrible and wonderful and exceedingly strong. He had large iron teeth, devouring and crushing, and everything that was left he stamped to pieces under his feet." The fourth empire is the Roman Empire, which now occupies the entire world, and concerning which it was said in connection with the image, "Its lower legs were of iron, and part of its feet were of iron, and part of clay." And yet from the iron |76 portion itself Daniel calls to mind that its teeth were iron, and solemnly avers that they were large in size. I find it strange that although he had set forth a lioness, a bear and a leopard in the case of the three previous kingdoms, he did not compare the Roman realm to any sort of beast. Perhaps it was in order to render the beast fearsome indeed that he gave it no name, intending thereby that we should understand the Romans to partake of all the more ferocious characteristics we might think of in connection with beasts. The Hebrews believe that the beast which is here not named is the one spoken of in the Psalms: "A boar from the forest laid her waste, and a strange wild animal consumed her" (Ps. 79:14). [This is the citation according to the Septuagint and Vulgate, whose translation of the Septuagint is here quoted; but the citation in the Hebrew text is Ps. 80:14, and in the English Version, 80:13.] Instead of this the Hebrew reads: "All the beasts of the field have torn her." [A more accurate rendering of the Hebrew would be: ". . .and the moving creatures (or "swarms") of the field do feed upon her."] While they are all included in the one Empire of the Romans, we recognize at the same time those kingdoms which were previously separate. And as for the next statement, ". . .devouring and crushing, and pounding all the rest to pieces under his feet," this signifies that all nations have either been slain by the Romans or else have been subjected to tribute and servitude.

 

[claninja]

Hello, 70 weeks prophecy is not about Christ only but about the people and their holy city...
Daniel 9:24...seventy sevens are decreed for your people and your holy city...

So, my question to you and All those who claim that the 70 weeks prophecy already fulfilled is;

• Has all the 6 points (Daniel 9:24) fulfilled in the people of God? Really?

I know Jesus fulfilled all for us, But has it been fulfilled in His people already? That is what the 70 weeks prophecy is about....what Jesus has done is been fulfilled in the people..

Meaning,

1. do we still transgress against God's law?
2. We don't sin anymore?
3. We already received everlasting life? etc...

We should try to remain on topic with the OP, I was merely using the 70th prophecy as an example. If you wish to the discuss the 6 points of the 70 weeks prophecy and how the NT shows them fulfilled, you may respond to my post on the following forum:

Daniel's 70th week

 

[claninja]

So who are the 10 kings

I don't know, and any names of kings or kingdoms that I may associate with the 10 horns, will purely be speculation, as scripture does not define the exact names of the 10 horns. It only states they are kings.

Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns are ten kings who will rise from this kingdom.

and when did they manifest?

They arise from the 4th kingdom, as stated by scripture.

Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns are ten kings who will rise from this kingdom.



How many kingdoms, do you believe, there would be until the saints would possess the kingdom?

 

[sovereigngrace]

I don't know, and any names of kings or kingdoms that I may associate with the 10 horns, will purely be speculation, as scripture does not define the exact names of the 10 horns. It only states they are kings.

Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns are ten kings who will rise from this kingdom.



They arise from the 4th kingdom, as stated by scripture.

Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns are ten kings who will rise from this kingdom.



How many kingdoms, do you believe, there would be until the saints would possess the kingdom?

Is that your position on the ten horns/ten kings in Rev 17:12?

 

[fwGod]

I believe this predication was directly fulfilled when Mohammad forced his calendar into being, as a compulsory alternative to our Christian calendar, and as an alternative to the Jewish luni-solar one. Question: Do you have any other good theories for this ‘changing of the times’ prophecy?

A calendar does not indicate a changing of the times, it only keeps track of the days through each year.
The Islamic calendar doesn't do away with our American secular calendar.

For the changing of the times to have significance enough to be mentioned in the Bible.. it would have to mean that the antichrist does away with the standard that has been followed for as long as anyone can remember.

It would also have to mean.. that it's talking about changes as far as the Jewish culture is concerned. Which would then refer to the Jewish Moeds, holidays. As it concerns God who established them, as it concerns His plans marked out to occur each in their own timing.

To seek to outlaw them, so as to seek to make God non-existent because the antichrist claims to be God.. and therefore establishes his own is significant indeed.

 

[claninja]

Is that your position on the ten horns/ten kings in Rev 17:12?

Correct, any specific names that I would assign to the horns would purely be speculation, as scripture doesn't define them as anything else but kings.

Now will you answer my question?

How many kingdoms, do you believe, there would be until the saints would possess the kingdom?