In your eschatological scheme, is there a role for the first 3 beasts after their empires collapsed by they were not completely destroyed?
Sorry, could you reword your question.
Upvote
0
In your eschatological scheme, is there a role for the first 3 beasts after their empires collapsed by they were not completely destroyed?
At the same time as 10 kingdoms had consolidated within the boundaries of the former Empire (see posts #56 and #57), an obscure Arab prophet had a vision. It was the year AD 610 and he claimed to have flown on a dazzling winged steed to Jerusalem, where he met Abraham, Moses and Jesus. He led them in prayer before ascending into heaven to receive instructions from Allah. Who could take it seriously? Yet within several years Mohammed and the angel that accompanied him created a lethal brand of religion and power that would sweep through the world.
In AD 622 Islam burst on the scene. Islam embarked on conquest that created a massive new empire, even bigger than the ones before it.
Before discussing the 3 uprooted ‘horns’, I would like to share an interesting clue from Daniel. Islam is dated from 16 July 622 because that was the start of the Hegira. The Hegira is a purely lunar calendar and has been in used from then until now. The clue is found in here: “He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the law.” (Daniel 7:25)
I believe this predication was directly fulfilled when Mohammad forced his calendar into being, as a compulsory alternative to our Christian calendar, and as an alternative to the Jewish luni-solar one. Question: Do you have any other good theories for this ‘changing of the times’ prophecy?
So? Not sure what your point is.
The first 3 beasts, Babylonian and Persian and Seleucid Empires, are humbled, but not destroyed like the fourth beast, Roman Empire. Their dominion was taken away from them, but they were permitted to remain alive; i.e. the Gentile powers, represented by the beasts, were to survive for a while as nations, though deprived of empire. The period of life allotted to them by God was only a little while. (based on Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges.)
You overlooked or ignored the word in the verse that I specifically highlighted: "before".
It tells us that the kingdoms were not coexistent.
Nor is there any evidence that "residue" denotes or connotes four coexistent kingdoms.
Back to the O.P AD 70 to AD 622 – prophecy unfolding?
Here is where it gets really interesting. It took about a century for the dust to settle after western Rome’s breakup (AD 476) and during this time some of the migrating tribes were swallowed up by their neighbours. For example, the Burgundians were incorporated into the Frankish kingdom. As you know, Burgundy has been a province of France right up to this day. So, by AD 600 there were (you guessed it) exactly 10 geo-political regions inside the boundaries of the former Roman Empire.
Hello Marilyn,Hi pasifika,
Certainly. The emblems tell you who they are.
1. Lion - a monarch, wings - empirical.
View attachment 271321
The Eagle. The wings were broken off the lion, indicating that this power came from the lion.
View attachment 271322
2. Bear - and not a cuddly one at that but a ferocious one.
View attachment 271323
3. The Leopard - this emblem was on their shields.
View attachment 271324
4. The terrifying beast - led by the Assyrian, (Islam)
The first 3 beasts, Babylonian and Persian and Seleucid Empires, are humbled, but not destroyed like the fourth beast, Roman Empire. They were permitted to survive for a while as nations. Why, do you think, this is? Do you think they will have a renewed role in history?Sorry, could you reword your question.
I accept that both words are used in the original text. However, it’s not necessary to force a very literalistic interpretation on them when Daniel and Revelation are so often using hyperbolic language. That’s a stunt futurists play, and the Preterist plays it too when it suits.
Surely, this is another case where the same word (melek) means ‘Greece’ in the 1st instance, and ‘Alexander’ in the 2nd instant. That’s how I understand it anyway.
Yes, melek means king, royal and malkuw means kingdom, kingly, realm, reign. But in ancient and modern culture the king and his kingdom are synonymous. You are not grasping that.
Hello, 70 weeks prophecy is not about Christ only but about the people and their holy city...And yet when we look at Daniel 7:24, it clearly states out of this "kingdom" 10 "kings" would arise. It does not say out of this "kingdom" 10 "kingdoms" would arise. There is a clear difference in the language.
Daniel 7:24 (ESV) As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom (malku) ten kings (melek) shall arise
It seems that all theological beliefs play into the same stunt, some preterists believing the horns are kings of the roman empire, some futurists believe the 10 horns to be the european union, and some historicists believing the 10 horns to be 10 territories and/or kingdoms that came from the roman empire. I would argue all of these beliefs are pure speculation, as scripture doesn't exactly tell us.
The 10 horns of the 4th beast in Daniel remind me of the final 70th week Daniel 9, in that it often distracts believers into speculation.
IMO, The key verse of the 70 weeks of Daniel is verse 24. Since we now have the NT, and the NT is very clear that the 6 points of verse 24 were fulfilled with Christ's 1st coming, we can then understand that the final week's parabolic language points to Christ. And so understanding verse 24 as being fulfilled with Christ shapes our belief of the final week. However, many futurists often ignore the importance Daniel 9:24 or try to find all kinds of ways they are not yet fulfilled, despite the NT clearly stating them all fulfilled, which leads to all kinds of speculations on the 70th week. I'm sure we can agree on this point, as your writings on the 70 weeks are fantastic
So I would argue it is also with the vision of the 4 beasts in daniel 7. The 10 horns and little horn, and the time, times, and half a time, often distract believers.
Since we now have the NT, the key verse no longer becomes the "10 horns, little horn, or time, times, and half a time". No, the key verse becomes Daniel 7:17-18. This verse specifically tells us, without the distraction of the 10 horns or little horn, that the there would be ONLY 4 kingdoms that would come out of the earth, but the saints receive the kingdom and possess it forever.
Daniel 7:17-18 (LXX) These four beasts are four kingdoms (basileiai) [that] shall rise up on the earth: which shall be taken away; and the saints of the Most High shall take the kingdom (basileian), and possess it for ever and ever.
As we can see per the NT, the kingdom of God was to come in the 1st century and the believers were to receive it in the 1st century. And this was clearly during the 4th earthly kingdom (rome).
Hebrews 12:22 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe
Matthew 16:28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
Matthew 21:43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.
Colossians 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
Acts 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit
2 timothy 4:18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safely into his heavenly kingdom.
Luke 21:31-32 So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that the kingdom of God is near. Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all has taken place.
So just as our understanding of the 70th week is shaped by our belief that Christ fulfilled the 6 points of Daniel 9:24, so to should our understanding of the 10 horns, the little horn, and time, times, and half a time be shaped by coming of the kingdom of God, which came in the 1st century, during the 4th empire, as clearly stated by the NT.
It's absolutely possible, however, the key verse uses specific language to differentiate between kingdom and kings.
Daniel 7:24 (ESV) As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom (malku) ten kings (melek) shall arise
And yet when we look at Daniel 7:24, it clearly states out of this "kingdom" 10 "kings" would arise. It does not say out of this "kingdom" 10 "kingdoms" would arise. There is a clear difference in the language.
Daniel 7:24 (ESV) As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom (malku) ten kings (melek) shall arise
It seems that all theological beliefs play into the same stunt, some preterists believing the horns are kings of the roman empire, some futurists believe the 10 horns to be the european union, and some historicists believing the 10 horns to be 10 territories and/or kingdoms that came from the roman empire. I would argue all of these beliefs are pure speculation, as scripture doesn't exactly tell us.
The 10 horns of the 4th beast in Daniel remind me of the final 70th week Daniel 9, in that it often distracts believers into speculation.
IMO, The key verse of the 70 weeks of Daniel is verse 24. Since we now have the NT, and the NT is very clear that the 6 points of verse 24 were fulfilled with Christ's 1st coming, we can then understand that the final week's parabolic language points to Christ. And so understanding verse 24 as being fulfilled with Christ shapes our belief of the final week. However, many futurists often ignore the importance Daniel 9:24 or try to find all kinds of ways they are not yet fulfilled, despite the NT clearly stating them all fulfilled, which leads to all kinds of speculations on the 70th week. I'm sure we can agree on this point, as your writings on the 70 weeks are fantastic
So I would argue it is also with the vision of the 4 beasts in daniel 7. The 10 horns and little horn, and the time, times, and half a time, often distract believers.
Since we now have the NT, the key verse no longer becomes the "10 horns, little horn, or time, times, and half a time". No, the key verse becomes Daniel 7:17-18. This verse specifically tells us, without the distraction of the 10 horns or little horn, that the there would be ONLY 4 kingdoms that would come out of the earth, but the saints receive the kingdom and possess it forever.
Daniel 7:17-18 (LXX) These four beasts are four kingdoms (basileiai) [that] shall rise up on the earth: which shall be taken away; and the saints of the Most High shall take the kingdom (basileian), and possess it for ever and ever.
As we can see per the NT, the kingdom of God was to come in the 1st century and the believers were to receive it in the 1st century. And this was clearly during the 4th earthly kingdom (rome).
Hebrews 12:22 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe
Matthew 16:28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
Matthew 21:43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.
Colossians 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
Acts 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit
2 timothy 4:18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safely into his heavenly kingdom.
Luke 21:31-32 So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that the kingdom of God is near. Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all has taken place.
So just as our understanding of the 70th week is shaped by our belief that Christ fulfilled the 6 points of Daniel 9:24, so to should our understanding of the 10 horns, the little horn, and time, times, and half a time be shaped by coming of the kingdom of God, which came in the 1st century, during the 4th empire, as clearly stated by the NT.
It's absolutely possible, however, the key verse uses specific language to differentiate between kingdom and kings.
Daniel 7:24 (ESV) As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom (malku) ten kings (melek) shall arise
Each beastly Kingdom/Federation came up one at a time. That is why it says `before.` The lion & eagle`s wings, came up, and then the bear and then the Leopard and finally the terrifying beast.
That is exactly the order that the contemporary beastly powers came up (3) and one to yet emerge.
1. Lion (British Empire) Eagle`s wings, (America) (after Napoleonic war)
2. Bear (Soviet Union) (after WW1)
3. Leopard (European Union) (after WW2)
4. Terrifying Beast (after the Russian War)
Hello, 70 weeks prophecy is not about Christ only but about the people and their holy city...
Daniel 9:24...seventy sevens are decreed for your people and your holy city...
So, my question to you and All those who claim that the 70 weeks prophecy already fulfilled is;
I know Jesus fulfilled all for us, But has it been fulfilled in His people already? That is what the 70 weeks prophecy is about....what Jesus has done is been fulfilled in the people..
- Has all the 6 points (Daniel 9:24) fulfilled in the people of God? Really?
Meaning,
- do we still transgress against God's law?
- We don't sin anymore?
- We already received everlasting life? etc...
So who are the 10 kings
and when did they manifest?
I don't know, and any names of kings or kingdoms that I may associate with the 10 horns, will purely be speculation, as scripture does not define the exact names of the 10 horns. It only states they are kings.
Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns are ten kings who will rise from this kingdom.
They arise from the 4th kingdom, as stated by scripture.
Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns are ten kings who will rise from this kingdom.
How many kingdoms, do you believe, there would be until the saints would possess the kingdom?
A calendar does not indicate a changing of the times, it only keeps track of the days through each year.I believe this predication was directly fulfilled when Mohammad forced his calendar into being, as a compulsory alternative to our Christian calendar, and as an alternative to the Jewish luni-solar one. Question: Do you have any other good theories for this ‘changing of the times’ prophecy?
Is that your position on the ten horns/ten kings in Rev 17:12?