AD 70 to AD 622 – prophecy unfolding?

[Christian Gedge]

Hi CG,

My view of Daniel 7:25 is that it is Satan himself that thinks to change times and laws. He does this when he tempts Jesus in Matthew 4. When Satan took Jesus to the high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world; he said to Jesus that he would give them to him if he would fall down and worship him. This was Satan’s attempt to change how and when the kingdoms of this world become Christ’s.

Clearly the dragon is meaning satan here, and that the dragon gave power unto the beast, thus satan can't be meant in Daniel 7:25, though Daniel 7:25 does involve satan according to Revelation 13:4. Yet it is not satan doing all of those things in Daniel 7:25, it is the beast that is.

Agreed; The Red Dragon of Revelation 12:3 gives the wider picture. It is Satan with his authority over the kingdoms of the world, and his power to give them to whomsoever he will. The beasts of Rev 13 and Daniel 7 are those beasts that Satan raises up.

 

[Marilyn C]

The imperial western Roman empire was succeeded by the (un)holy Roman empire. The latter empire remains very much alive, but there are many of the true Church within it.

I am unable to discern any future role for the first three beasts from Scripture.

I am undecided regarding Gog and Magog.

Given Rome's historical prophetic significance, and its continued existence via the papal empire, I consider it to have continued prophetic significance, albeit to end with its ultimate demise.

Post #63 contains the commentary of three Reformers regarding the Roman papacy's fulfillment of Daniel 7:25.

Hi jgr,

Now I`m sure you realise that the final kingdom is Political and NOT religious. Thus NOT the RCC.

 

[jgr]

Hi jgr,

Now I`m sure you realise that the final kingdom is Political and NOT religious. Thus NOT the RCC.

Hi Marilyn,

You'll have to persuade the Reformers, who lived in the belly of, and died at the hands of, the kingdom.

 

[Christian Gedge]

I notice that the area occupied by those empires overlap with the historical Islamic Empires / Caliphates … If this is relevant, it may mean that theories about the revival of the Roman Empire are wrong and that future wars and antichrist (s) would rather involve the Middle East region?

Who is the person referred to in post #63? Is it the Caliphate or the RCC?

The imperial western Roman empire was succeeded by the (un)holy Roman empire. The latter empire remains very much alive … Given Rome's historical prophetic significance, and its continued existence via the papal empire, I consider it to have continued prophetic significance, albeit to end with its ultimate demise.

Although Historicist, I find myself differing with the usual historicist understanding as popularised by reformists several centuries ago. They represent the Pope (papal dynasty) of the Roman Catholic Church, arising out of the remnants of the old Roman Empire during the dark ages. For whatever we might think of the RCC, I think we’ve shoehorned it into Daniel 7, when the caliphate is the more natural fit.

Also, the identification of the ‘10 horns’, as put forward by Rev. Elliott, has problems. To quote:-

The ten horns are the Romano-Gothic kingdoms: the Anglo-Saxons, Franks, Allemans, Burgundians, Bavarians, Vandals, Suevi, Heruli, Visigoths and Ostrogoths. The three horns required to be removed to fit Daniel were the Ostrogoths, the Vandals and the Lombards, because they were a proximate threat to Rome, and how the papal antichrist would develop. (Edward Bishop Elliott)​

He focusses on Western Rome and completely ignores the Eastern empire. Also, he names several groups – Allemans, Heruli that barely lasted more than a few years.

A lesser known, but better view IMO, is that ten kingdoms developed between the collapse of the western empire (476 AD) until the arrival of Islam (622 AD) The ten geo-political regions left remaining were the Anglo-Saxons, Britons, Franks, Lombards, Avars, Basques, Visigoths, Moors, North Africa, and Byzantium. (See post #57)

Then, three of these ‘horns’ were swallowed up by the Muslims in the 7th century. I’ll get back to this soon.

 

[claninja]

True, but what we do know is that Daniel and Revelation use hyperbole rather liberally. Many translators would not be as strict as you are with 'kings' versus 'kingdoms'.

I'm pretty strict on the horns being kings and not kingdoms for 2 main reasons:

1.) because scripture doesn't state the saints would inherit the kingdom after around 15 kingdoms (Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, 10 horn kingdoms, 1 little horn kingdom). It states there would be 4 kingdoms but the saints would inherit the kingdom forever (Daniel 7:17-18).

2.) because scripture states out of the 4th kingdom (malku) 10 kings (melek) would arise. It doesn't state 10 kingdoms (malku) would arise out of 10 kingdoms (malku) (daniel 7:24)

Also, the early Church fathers expected ten kingdoms. I quoted Jerome but there are more.

I'm not so sure if the early Church father's expected 10 kingDOMS after the roman empire.


1.) Jerome doesn't appear to believe there would be 10 new kingdoms after the Roman empire, but that when the Roman empire is to be destroyed, it would be partitioned between 10 kings. I read this to mean that just prior to the 4th kingdom being destroyed, it would be partitioned between 10 kings, followed by an 11th that would pluck up 3 of the 10 kings. This is would be consistent with vision in which the 4th beast is slain (rome destroyed) when the little horn is judged. He states this was the tradition of the Christian church. This doesn't appear to be the traditional historicist/futurist belief. Additionally, this interpretation is proved false by History. For Rome never had 10 kings rule over it followed by an 11th king to overthrow 3 of them just prior to its destruction.

"We should therefore concur with the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church, that at the end of the world, when the Roman Empire is to be destroyed, there shall be ten kings who will partition the Roman world amongst themselves. Then an insignificant eleventh king will arise, who will overcome three of the ten kings... after they have been slain, the seven other kings also will bow their necks to the victor." (Jerome 347-420 AD)


2.) Cyril of Jerusalem seems to believe the same thing as jerome, that prior to Rome's destruction, it would be partitioned and ruled over by 10 kings, and after these and 11th king would rise. He states this is also in tradition of the Church's belief. This doesn't appear to be the traditional historicist or futurist belief. Additionally, this interpretation is proved false as the Roman empire never had 10 kings rule over it at the same time, followed by an 11th king just prior to its destruction.

The fourth beast shall be a fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall surpass all kingdoms. And that this kingdom is that of the Romans, has been the tradition of the Church’s interpreters ... There shall rise up together ten kings of the Romans, reigning in different parts , but all about the same time; and after these an eleventh, the Antichrist, who by his magical craft shall seize upon the Roman power; and of the kings who reigned before him, three he shall humble, and the remaining seven he shall keep in subjection to himself …(Cyril of Jerusalem 313–386 AD)

3.) Tertullian seems to believe similar to what the Historicist traditionally believes, that the Roman state would be transformed into 10 new kingdoms.
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who now restrains it is removed. What obstacles are there but the Roman state, the rebellion of which, by being scattered into the ten kingDOMS, will introduce the Antichrist upon its own ruins?(Tertullian 160–220 AD)

4.) It's hard to tell if Hippolytus believed the 10 kings would start new kingdoms after the Roman empire or if it would be 10 kings who ruled the Roman empire.
“A fourth beast, dreadful and terrible; it had iron teeth and claws of brass.” And who are these but the Romans? - the kingdom which is now established ... After this, what remains, but the toes of the feet of the image, in which part is iron and part clay, mixed together? And mystically by the toes of the feet he meant the kings who are to arise from among them. (Hippolytus (170–235 AD)


5.) It appears Irenaeus also holds that the Roman empire would be partitioned and ruled by 10 kings. However, it's hard to see if Irenaeus believed these would be 10 new kingdoms AFTER the roman empire or if the Roman empire remained, but just ruled by 10 kings. If it is the latter, then it was proved incorrect by history.

In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord’s disciples ... concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules the earth shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel.(Irenaeus 130–202 AD).

Sure, the kingdom came when the Church began, like a brave entrance into a hostile world. But it has its grand finale when Christ returns, "and the saints of the most high receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, forever and ever!" That's how I understand it to be.

As an Amil-Historicist, you believe it is 4 kingdoms from the time of Daniel (Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome) until the coming of the kingdom of God, at Christ's 1st coming. But then, the saints would possess the kingdom after around 15 kingdoms (Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, 10 horn kingdoms, and little horn kingdom that uproots 3 of the 10 horns), at the 2nd coming of Christ?

It is easy for parabolic language to distract us from the simple interpretation. I would argue, The interpretation of the 10 horns should be shaped on the simple interpretation of the vision: That there would FOUR kingdoms but the saints would inherit the kingdom.

Daniel 7:17-18 These four great beasts are four kingdoms who will arise from the earth. But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and possess it forever—yes, forever and ever.’


Thus, while I don't assign specific names to the 10 kingdoms, as such would only be speculation, I believe these verses (daniel 7:17-18, Daniel 7:27) already fulfilled, in that the saints inherited the kingdom around the time the 4th kingdom, which would be consistent with the NT.

Luke 21:31-32 So also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.

 

[jgr]

Although Historicist, I find myself differing with the usual historicist understanding as popularised by reformists several centuries ago. They represent the Pope (papal dynasty) of the Roman Catholic Church, arising out of the remnants of the old Roman Empire during the dark ages. For whatever we might think of the RCC, I think we’ve shoehorned it into Daniel 7, when the caliphate is the more natural fit.

Also, the identification of the ‘10 horns’, as put forward by Rev. Elliott, has problems. To quote:-

The ten horns are the Romano-Gothic kingdoms: the Anglo-Saxons, Franks, Allemans, Burgundians, Bavarians, Vandals, Suevi, Heruli, Visigoths and Ostrogoths. The three horns required to be removed to fit Daniel were the Ostrogoths, the Vandals and the Lombards, because they were a proximate threat to Rome, and how the papal antichrist would develop. (Edward Bishop Elliott)​

He focusses on Western Rome and completely ignores the Eastern empire. Also, he names several groups – Allemans, Heruli that barely lasted more than a few years.

A lesser known, but better view IMO, is that ten kingdoms developed between the collapse of the western empire (476 AD) until the arrival of Islam (622 AD) The ten geo-political regions left remaining were the Anglo-Saxons, Britons, Franks, Lombards, Avars, Basques, Visigoths, Moors, North Africa, and Byzantium. (See post #57)

Then, three of these ‘horns’ were swallowed up by the Muslims in the 7th century. I’ll get back to this soon.

Daniel 7
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

The death toll of the historical true Church attributable to the papacy is estimated at more than 50 million, over more than 1,000 years.

What was the death toll of the historical true Church attributable to the caliphate during that time?

 

[Christian Gedge]

The Little Horn who uprooted 3 of the 10 kingdoms

I hope you don’t mind, but I’ll move forward now, and let what actually happened in history answer some of the objections. Bear with me.

Mohammed died in AD 632 but his caliphs (successors) took Jerusalem in AD 637. Byzantium managed to survive the onslaught, but not before it lost large swathes of the middle east. Then a second wave of conquest was directed toward North Africa. After several wars the Exarchate of Africa, formerly the Vandal kingdom, fell to the Muslims in AD 670. The large Christian population was subjugated.

Then they advanced westward into the Moorish kingdom. The Moors submitted to become Muslim in AD 680.

Next, in AD 711 they crossed from North Africa into Visigoth Spain. Within seven years they had taken the peninsula and were crossing the Pyrenees mountains into the kingdom of the Franks. (France) That is where it stopped; and we may thank God for that. If this venture had succeeded, all of Europe might have been bowing to Mecca today. But in AD 732 the Muslims were defeated by the Franks and Europe was spared.

Prophecies fulfilled:
Daniel 7:8, Luke 21:24

 

[Christian Gedge]

Please take a look at the supplied map. The three uprooted ‘horns’ were North Africa, the kingdom of the Moors, and the kingdom of the Visigoths. The remaining seven are as shown. Simple when you’ve got a picture.

 

[grafted branch]

Agreed; The Red Dragon of Revelation 12:3 gives the wider picture. It is Satan with his authority over the kingdoms of the world, and his power to give them to whomsoever he will. The beasts of Rev 13 and Daniel 7 are those beasts that Satan raises up.

The red dragon in Revelation 12:3 has 7 heads and 10 horns. The beast in Revelation 13 that rises up out of the sea has 7 heads and 10 horns. The dragon gives this beast his power, seat, and authority.

It seems to me that the dragon and beast are the same. Jesus, who has always been part of the trinity, said in Matthew 28:18 “all power is given unto me in heaven and in earth”. Couldn’t the same type of action happen when the dragon gives the beast his power? Are there any verses that clearly show there are 2 separate 7 headed 10 horned creatures?

 

[claninja]

Hi claninja,

Actually God`s word does tell us some of the 10 kings. The final global leader is called the `Assyrian.` (Isa. 31: 8) And that is the area of `Syria, Iraq & Jordan.` Those 3 nations have come on to the world scene in God`s appointed time. They will form the basis of the world leader`s power.

He will `pluck them out by the roots.` (Dan. 7: 7) This relates to how they were divided up by the British and French after WW1. A line was drawn in the `sand` so to speak and each power had control of them. These 3 nations desire have these influences taken away, roots plucked out.`

The other 7 kings are the GCC (Gulf Cooperation Council & Yemen) All these will make the Islamic Federation. They will come together as the A/C rises in influence, power & authority.

Hi Marilyn,

From the time of Daniel, How many kingdoms would it be until the saints possess the kingdom?

 

[claninja]

The Little Horn who uprooted 3 of the 10 kingdoms

I hope you don’t mind, but I’ll move forward now, and let what actually happened in history answer some of the objections. Bear with me.

Mohammed died in AD 632 but his caliphs (successors) took Jerusalem in AD 637. Byzantium managed to survive the onslaught, but not before it lost large swathes of the middle east. Then a second wave of conquest was directed toward North Africa. After several wars the Exarchate of Africa, formerly the Vandal kingdom, fell to the Muslims in AD 670. The large Christian population was subjugated.

Then they advanced westward into the Moorish kingdom. The Moors submitted to become Muslim in AD 680.

Next, in AD 711 they crossed from North Africa into Visigoth Spain. Within seven years they had taken the peninsula and were crossing the Pyrenees mountains into the kingdom of the Franks. (France) That is where it stopped; and we may thank God for that. If this venture had succeeded, all of Europe might have been bowing to Mecca today. But in AD 732 the Muslims were defeated by the Franks and Europe was spared.

Prophecies fulfilled:
Daniel 7:8, Luke 21:24

CG,

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you or the historicist position, and if so, I apologize and feel free to correct me.

Daniel states that there would be FOUR kingdoms but the saints would inherit the kingdom forever
Daniel 7:17-18 These four great beasts are four kingdoms who will arise from the earth. But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and possess it forever—yes, forever and ever.’

Specifically, it would be after the judgment of the little horn, that the saints would possess the kingdom.
Daniel 7:26-27 But the court will convene, and his dominion will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. Then the sovereignty, dominion, and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven will be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will serve and obey Him.’

If the 10 horns are kingdoms that came after the 4th beast (rome), then that would mean you believe the saints inherit the kingdom after 15 kingdoms (Babylon, perisa, greeks, romans, 10 horns: Byzantium, avar, lombards, franks, anglo Saxons, Britons, basques, north Africa, moors, visigoths, followed by islam as the little horn)?

Or do you believe the saints possess the kingdom around the time of the 4th kingdom as stated in Daniel 7:16-18, but this not in sequential order due to parabolic language?

Or do you believe the 4th beasts is not just rome, but all 12 kingdoms (rome + 10 horns: Byzantium, avar, lombards, franks, anglo Saxons, Britons, basques, north Africa, moors, visigoths, + islam as the little horn)??

I guess, how do you square Daniel 7:17-18, that states there would be FOUR kingdoms but the saints would possess the kingdom, with the historicist position?

 

[Marilyn C]

The imperial western Roman empire was succeeded by the (un)holy Roman empire. The latter empire remains very much alive, but there are many of the true Church within it.

I am unable to discern any future role for the first three beasts from Scripture.

I am undecided regarding Gog and Magog.

Given Rome's historical prophetic significance, and its continued existence via the papal empire, I consider it to have continued prophetic significance, albeit to end with its ultimate demise.

Post #63 contains the commentary of three Reformers regarding the Roman papacy's fulfillment of Daniel 7:25.

Hi jgr,

God is referring to Political kingdoms. These are the ones He judges. Yes they killed Christians however the rulership is Political. It is the law of the land, the military might. Not run by a priest.

The final gentile Global Government is also Political and does away with the religion which BTW only `rode on the back of the beastly government.`

Note the UN with its `moral laws` (false religion) is `riding on the back of the Political Global government, G20.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Marilyn,

From the time of Daniel, How many kingdoms would it be until the saints possess the kingdom?

Hi Clanija,

God has shown us the 5 world Rulers in Dan. 2, the Great Image, and that is who He has or will judge - Babylon/Medes & Persians/Greece/Rome/ (all judged) and the Federation of Islam to come.

 

[jgr]

Hi jgr,

God is referring to Political kingdoms. These are the ones He judges. Yes they killed Christians however the rulership is Political. It is the law of the land, the military might. Not run by a priest.

The final gentile Global Government is also Political and does away with the religion which BTW only `rode on the back of the beastly government.`

View attachment 271428

Note the UN with its `moral laws` (false religion) is `riding on the back of the Political Global government, G20.

Hi Marilyn,

The papacy was and is fully as much a political institution as a religious institution. Politicization and secularization were major factors in its spiritual apostasization.

The Vatican is a duly recognized nation and country; an undeniable political entity.

God raised up the Reformers and granted them the faith, vision, wisdom, and discernment to recognize and repel its spiritual wiles, at enormous cost in suffering and death.

We are the beneficiaries today of those historical sacrifices.

 

[Andrewn]

Please take a look at the supplied map. The three uprooted ‘horns’ were North Africa, the kingdom of the Moors, and the kingdom of the Visigoths. The remaining seven are as shown. Simple when you’ve got a picture.

I like your explanation. Only thing is that the territories of the Byzantine and the Islamic Empires should be extended east in the maps.

 

[Christian Gedge]

Hi Andrewn,

Thanks. The Islamic empire is light green, (I couldnt fit Pakistan, Indonesia etc) the dark green indicating its conquest into former Roman territories. The Byzantine boundaries are about right for the year 700 BC I think?

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Marilyn,

The papacy was and is fully as much a political institution as a religious institution. Politicization and secularization were major factors in its spiritual apostasization.

The Vatican is a duly recognized nation and country; an undeniable political entity.

God raised up the Reformers and granted them the faith, vision, wisdom, and discernment to recognize and repel its spiritual wiles, at enormous cost in suffering and death.

We are the beneficiaries today of those historical sacrifices.

However the Vatican is not apart of the Global Government, it only `rides on the back` of it for a time.

And yes I fully agree that it is because of the sacrifices even martyrdom that we are blessed with such truths today.

 

[Christian Gedge]

I guess, how do you square Daniel 7:17-18, that states there would be FOUR kingdoms but the saints would possess the kingdom, with the historicist position?

I'll try to get back to this in an upcoming thread.

 

[jgr]

However the Vatican is not apart of the Global Government, it only `rides on the back` of it for a time.

And yes I fully agree that it is because of the sacrifices even martyrdom that we are blessed with such truths today.

Pope Francis, as unarguably the most leftist ever, is the most globalist ever. "Catholic" means "universal", a synonym for "global".

Globalism serves and advances the papacy's agenda like nothing else.

Thanks for recognizing the sacrifices of the historical, and all, defenders of the true faith.

 

[claninja]

Hi Clanija,

God has shown us the 5 world Rulers in Dan. 2, the Great Image, and that is who He has or will judge - Babylon/Medes & Persians/Greece/Rome/ (all judged) and the Federation of Islam to come.

so you believe from the time of Daniel,5 empires until the saints inherit the kingdom forever?