AD 70 to AD 622 – prophecy unfolding?

[jgr]

Fine, but how do you/they refute the specifics I mentioned.

1. The last beast treads down the others. (thus they have to be in the same time) (Dan. 7: 7)
2. The first 3 beastly powers/kingdoms are able to continue after the last one has been judged and dealt with. (Dan. 7: 11 & 12)
3. All these kingdoms are in the time of the Lord setting His rulership through Israel at the end of the Gentiles final Global Government. (Dan. 7: 27)

By recognizing their historical fulfillments. Take some time for research.

 

[Marilyn C]

By recognizing their historical fulfillments.

So has `Rome` trodden down Babylon & the Medes and Persians?`
Has Babylon, Medes & Persians and Greece carried on as kingdoms into God`s kingdom?
Are Babylon, Medes & Persians & Grecian Empires in the time of the Lord`s rulership in Israel?

 

[jgr]

So has `Rome` trodden down Babylon & the Medes and Persians?`
Has Babylon, Medes & Persians and Greece carried on as kingdoms into God`s kingdom?
Are Babylon, Medes & Persians & Grecian Empires in the time of the Lord`s rulership in Israel?

Take some time to research their insights.

 

[Marilyn C]

Take some time to research their insights.

That is a lazy answer and helps no one reading this topic. I suggest you do some work and present your side.

`Be diligent to present yourself approved of God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.` (2 Tim. 2: 15)

 

[jgr]

That is a lazy answer and helps no one reading this topic. I suggest you do some work and present your side.

`Be diligent to present yourself approved of God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.` (2 Tim. 2: 15)

I recognize and defer to the wisdom, discernment, and insight of the historical defenders of the faith.

You should do the same, rather than attempting to remake the historical prophetic narrative in modernism's image.

 

[solid_core]

So has `Rome` trodden down Babylon & the Medes and Persians?`
Has Babylon, Medes & Persians and Greece carried on as kingdoms into God`s kingdom?
Are Babylon, Medes & Persians & Grecian Empires in the time of the Lord`s rulership in Israel?

The Babylonian empire was destroyed by the Persian empire, the Persian empire was destroyed by the Greek empire and the Greek empire was destroyed by the Roman empire.

The Roman empire witnessed the coming of Christ and in time became a Christian empire. From that time the main kingdoms of this world became Christian kingdoms.

 

[pasifika]

Hi pasifika,

The `sea` is the Mediterranean sea, as it is called the `Great Sea.` They are 4 contemporary kingdoms/Federations that are easily recognisable today.

Could you give me names of those kingdoms

 

[jgr]

1. The last beast treads down the others. (thus they have to be in the same time) (Dan. 7: 7)

Where do you see "the others" in Daniel 7:7? The verse says that the fourth beast was "diverse from all the beasts that were before it".

The first three kingdoms preceded the fourth. They were not coexistent.

 

[Marilyn C]

I recognize and defer to the wisdom, discernment, and insight of the historical defenders of the faith.

You should do the same, rather than attempting to remake the historical prophetic narrative in modernism's image.

We can back and forth with my reference or your reference, but THAT is NOT working at `rightly dividing the word of God` ourselves. If you believe what they say, then write it down here so we can discuss and not hide behind some one`s supposed wisdom etc. Let`s read and see what they say.

 

[Marilyn C]

The Babylonian empire was destroyed by the Persian empire, the Persian empire was destroyed by the Greek empire and the Greek empire was destroyed by the Roman empire.

The Roman empire witnessed the coming of Christ and in time became a Christian empire. From that time the main kingdoms of this world became Christian kingdoms.

Yes we know in history who came after whom, however if you read Dan. 7 the last beastly power trod down all the others.

`It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces and trampling the residue with its feet.` (Dan. 7: 7)

 

[Marilyn C]

Could you give me names of those kingdoms

Hi pasifika,

Certainly. The emblems tell you who they are.

1. Lion - a monarch, wings - empirical.

The Eagle. The wings were broken off the lion, indicating that this power came from the lion.

2. Bear - and not a cuddly one at that but a ferocious one.

3. The Leopard - this emblem was on their shields.

4. The terrifying beast - led by the Assyrian, (Islam)

 

[Marilyn C]

Where do you see "the others" in Daniel 7:7? The verse says that the fourth beast was "diverse from all the beasts that were before it".

The first three kingdoms preceded the fourth. They were not coexistent.

Yes diverse but `devouring, breaking in pieces and trampling the residue with its feet.`(Dan. 7; 7)

Then when the fourth kingdom/Federation is dealt with by God then the other kingdom/Federations are allowed to go on for some time.

`I watched till the (4th) beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. As for the REST OF THE BEASTS, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.` (Dan. 7: 11 & 12)

 

[solid_core]

Yes we know in history who came after whom, however if you read Dan. 7 the last beastly power trod down all the others.

`It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces and trampling the residue with its feet.` (Dan. 7: 7)

View attachment 271319

So? Not sure what your point is.

 

[Andrewn]

Then when the fourth kingdom/Federation is dealt with by God then the other kingdom/Federations are allowed to go on for some time.

`I watched till the (4th) beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. As for the REST OF THE BEASTS, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.` (Dan. 7: 11 & 12)

The first 3 beasts, Babylonian and Persian and Seleucid Empires, are humbled, but not destroyed like the fourth beast, Roman Empire. Their dominion was taken away from them, but they were permitted to remain alive; i.e. the Gentile powers, represented by the beasts, were to survive for a while as nations, though deprived of empire. The period of life allotted to them by God was only a little while. (based on Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges.)

 

[jgr]

Yes diverse but `devouring, breaking in pieces and trampling the residue with its feet.`(Dan. 7; 7)

Then when the fourth kingdom/Federation is dealt with by God then the other kingdom/Federations are allowed to go on for some time.

`I watched till the (4th) beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. As for the REST OF THE BEASTS, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.` (Dan. 7: 11 & 12)

You overlooked or ignored the word in the verse that I specifically highlighted: "before".

It tells us that the kingdoms were not coexistent.

Nor is there any evidence that "residue" denotes or connotes four coexistent kingdoms.

 

[Christian Gedge]

Back to the O.P AD 70 to AD 622 – prophecy unfolding?

A natural reading of Daniel 7 suggests that the fourth beast (Roman Empire) would be divided into ten kingdoms. That is what Historicists think, and guess what? That’s what the early Church fathers thought too.

Here is where it gets really interesting. It took about a century for the dust to settle after western Rome’s breakup (AD 476) and during this time some of the migrating tribes were swallowed up by their neighbours. For example, the Burgundians were incorporated into the Frankish kingdom. As you know, Burgundy has been a province of France right up to this day. So, by AD 600 there were (you guessed it) exactly 10 geo-political regions inside the boundaries of the former Roman Empire.

 

[Christian Gedge]

Here they are folks – Daniels ten kingdoms! Count up and see.

 

[DavidPT]

You overlooked or ignored the word in the verse that I specifically highlighted: "before".

qodam, the Hebrew word for 'before' in Daniel 7:7, that same Hebrew word is also used in the following verses in Daniel below. Can you point out in any of those verses where qodam is ever being used in a chronological sense? If you can't, doesn't that indicate, that to argue qodam in Daniel 7:7 is meaning in a chronological sense, when nowhere else in Daniel is it ever being used in that sense, thus this is not a good argument to begin with?

Daniel 2:2 Daniel 2:11 Daniel 2:24 Daniel 2:25 Daniel 2:36 Daniel 3:13 Daniel 4:6-7Daniel 5:13 Daniel 5:15 Daniel 5:17 Daniel 5:23 Daniel 6:11-13 Daniel 7:8 Daniel 7:10 Daniel 7:13

 

[jgr]

qodam, the Hebrew word for 'before' in Daniel 7:7, that same Hebrew word is also used in the following verses in Daniel below. Can you point out in any of those verses where qodam is ever being used in a chronological sense? If you can't, doesn't that indicate, that to argue qodam in Daniel 7:7 is meaning in a chronological sense, when nowhere else in Daniel is it ever being used in that sense, thus this is not a good argument to begin with?

Daniel 2:2 Daniel 2:11 Daniel 2:24 Daniel 2:25 Daniel 2:36 Daniel 3:13 Daniel 4:6-7Daniel 5:13 Daniel 5:15 Daniel 5:17 Daniel 5:23 Daniel 6:11-13 Daniel 7:8 Daniel 7:10 Daniel 7:13

I would not disagree that at the completion of their appearances in the vision, all of the beasts were together in front of, or in the presence of, one another.

But their individual appearances as witnessed by Daniel in the vision were consecutive, not concurrent.

Consistent with the consecutive appearances of the four historical kingdoms on the world stage.

 

[Andrewn]

I would not disagree that at the completion of their appearances in the vision, all of the beasts were together in front of, or in the presence of, one another.

But their individual appearances as witnessed by Daniel in the vision were consecutive, not concurrent.

Consistent with the consecutive appearances of the four historical kingdoms on the world stage.

In your eschatological scheme, is there a role for the first 3 beasts after their empires collapsed by they were not completely destroyed?