Anti-universalism hostility

[Saint Steven]

Guys, you do not understand my reasoning. I’m not looking into the translation, but the grammar. When Christ compares the eternality of heaven he also related it to hell.

If hell is eternal, then we are ALL in a lot of trouble. "Everyone will be salted with fire."

Mark 9:47-49
And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where
“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’
49 Everyone will be salted with fire.

 

[Alain Valdivia]

I feel as if those who hold to a universalistic salvation are reading into the text. I mean going so far as to speak about goats and sheep’s being clean animals or the wise and foolish virgins being chaste thus proving they will be saved by virtue of their title. I honestly believe that doing this is taking the text and stretching it so far in order to hold to preconceptions of the text. In my estimation, I also seem to see that the people who deny the eternality of hell do so out of emotion. Not all though, but some deny hell as being eternal because of the uncomfortableness of it or because human and finite reason cannot suggest that a good God could allow the damned to suffer an eternity in hell. But we can’t allow our intuition, predispositions, and preconceptions to read into the text. Nonetheless, it isn’t I who is Lord of your guys’ consciences. Let your own conscience bear witness to your honesty with the text. I will leave here some objections to the eternality of hell that Aquinas raises up and how he refuted those objections:
“Objection 1: It would seem that God's mercy does not suffer at least men to be punished eternally. For it is written (Gn. 6:3): "My spirit shall not remain in man for ever because he is flesh"; where "spirit" denotes indignation, as a gloss observes. Therefore, since God's indignation is not distinct from His punishment, man will not be punished eternally.”
“Reply to Objection 1: This saying refers to man generically, because God's indignation was at length removed from the human race by the coming of Christ. But those who were unwilling to be included or to remain in this reconciliation effected by Christ, perpetuated the Divine anger in themselves, since no other way of reconciliation is given to us save that which is through Christ.”
“Objection 2: Further, the charity of the saints in this life makes them pray for their enemies. Now they will have more perfect charity in that life. Therefore they will pray then for their enemies who are damned. But the prayers of the saints cannot be in vain, since they are most acceptable to God. Therefore at the saints' prayers the Divine mercy will in time deliver the damned from their punishment.”
“Reply to Objection 2: As Augustine (De Civ. Dei xxi, 24) and Gregory (Moral. xxxiv) say, the saints in this life pray for their enemies, that they may be converted to God, while it is yet possible for them to be converted. For if we knew that they were foreknown to death, we should no more pray for them than for the demons. And since for those who depart this life without grace there will be no further time for conversion, no prayer will be offered for them, neither by the Church militant, nor by the Church triumphant. For that which we have to pray for them is, as the Apostle says (2 Tim. 2:25,26), that "God may give them repentance to know the truth, and they may recover themselves from the snares of the devil.”
“Objection 3: Further, God's foretelling of the punishment of the damned belongs to the prophecy of commination. Now the prophecy of commination is not always fulfilled: as appears from what was said of the destruction of Nineveh (Jonas 3); and yet it was not destroyed as foretold by the prophet, who also was troubled for that very reason (Jonas 4:1). Therefore it would seem that much more will the threat of eternal punishment be commuted by God's mercy for a more lenient punishment, when this will be able to give sorrow to none but joy to all.”
“Reply to Objection 3: A punishment threatened prophetically is only then commuted when there is a change in the merits of the person threatened. Hence: "I will suddenly speak against a nation and against a kingdom, to root out and to pull down and to destroy it. If that nation . . . shall repent of their evil, I also will repent of the evil that I have thought to do to them" (Jer. 18:7). Therefore, since the merits of the damned cannot be changed, the threatened punishment will ever be fulfilled in them. Nevertheless the prophecy of commination is always fulfilled in a certain sense, because as Augustine says (De Civ. Dei. xxi, 24): "Nineve has been overthrown, that was evil, and a good Nineve is built up, that was not: for while the walls and the houses remained standing, the city was overthrown in its wicked ways.”
“Objection 4: Further, the words of Ps. 76:8 are to the point, where it is said: "Will God then be angry for ever? [*Vulg.: 'Will God then cast off for ever?']" But God's anger is His punishment. Therefore, etc.”
“Reply to Objection 4: These words of the Psalm refer to the vessels of mercy, which have not made themselves unworthy of mercy, because in this life (which may be called God's anger on account of its unhappiness) He changes vessels of mercy into something better. Hence the Psalm continues (Ps. 76:11): "This is the change of the right hand of the most High." We may also reply that they refer to mercy as granting a relaxation but not setting free altogether if it be referred also to the damned. Hence the Psalm does not say: "Will He from His anger shut up His mercies?" but "in His anger," because the punishment will not be done away entirely; but His mercy will have effect by diminishing the punishment while it continues.”
“Objection 5: Further, a gloss on Is. 14:19, "But thou art cast out," etc. says: "Even though all souls shall have rest at last, thou never shalt": and it refers to the devil. Therefore it would seem that all human souls shall at length have rest from their pains.”
“Reply to Objection 5: This gloss is speaking not absolutely but on an impossible supposition in order to throw into relief the greatness of the devil's sin, or of Nabuchodonosor's.”

 

[Alain Valdivia]

If hell is eternal, then we are ALL in a lot of trouble. "Everyone will be salted with fire."

Mark 9:47-49
And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where
“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’
49 Everyone will be salted with fire.

We would indeed be in grand trouble were it not for the merits of the Redeemer. However, the merits of the Redeemer cannot be appropriated to the sinner, unless that sinner by grace is converted to God. Some people will say that Romans 5:18 teaches that all men will be justified, “Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.” However, they who read this don’t read the rest of the context, because Paul is clear that only “many” will be made righteous, not all.
“But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.”‭‭ (Romans‬ ‭5:15)
“For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.” (Romans 5:19).
Yet even then, Paul also speaks that it’s only those who by grace receive this gift of righteousness will actually attain to it: “For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.” (Romans‬ ‭5:17‬).
Yet, not all receive His atonement, thus falling short of justification and becoming heirs of perdition. Another point to be clarified is that just because Paul uses the word “all” does not mean that he is speaking of every particular human being. This is evident in his writings because two chapter before Paul wrote this, “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,” (Romans‬ ‭3:23‬). Yet not all have sinned since Christ Himself was sinless.

 

[Saint Steven]

1. If God desires everyone to be saved and that none should perish, I certainly should have that same desire (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9). What I don't understand is how God could set out to do something, want to do something, and then fail. Did God create to destroy? Did God gamble, take a risk, and then lose?

Yes. This is the real failure of Damnationism. It claims that God fails. (seems ironic)

I takes critical thinking to consider what we have been told all of our lives and finally recognize it for what it is. A claim that the long-term plan of God was for sin to win, that God would be defeated in the end, unable to rescue humankind from his own plan.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

[Saint Steven]

Let your own conscience bear witness to your honesty with the text.

If your neighbor was torturing people in his basement, would you brag about his good character?

 

[Alain Valdivia]

Yes. This is the real failure of Damnationism. It claims that God fails. (seems ironic)

I takes critical thinking to consider what we have been told all of our lives and finally recognize it for what it is. A claim that the long-term plan of God was for sin to win, that God would be defeated in the end, unable to rescue humankind from his own plan.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

God does not fail. For though He indeed desires the salvation of all men, yet it is through their own fault that they are damned. There is no defect in God’s mercy, but in man’s sin which unless repented of, prevents the grace of God from converting the soul. “Behold, the Lord 's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save, or his ear dull, that it cannot hear; but your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you so that he does not hear.” ‭‭(Isaiah‬ ‭59:1-2‬). Moreover, God has ordained that He will punish mankind for their iniquity especially the impenitent. This is spoken clearly of in Psalms 7 where God is said to be indignant towards the wicked everyday and that unless they repent He will whet His sword with their blood. “God is a righteous judge, and a God who feels indignation every day. If a man does not repent, God will whet his sword; he has bent and readied his bow; he has prepared for him his deadly weapons, making his arrows fiery shafts.” (‭‭Psalms‬ ‭7:11-13‬). Will we then say that God failed His plan because He chooses to exact punishment on the wicked? Surely that is absurd! God does not want to punish the wicked and yet He Himself declares to do so for the sake of His Divine Justice. Will we then say there is failure in the person of God for having a divided will? Of course not! That would be heresy for there to be contradictory wills in God. We cannot forget that our God is a consuming fire who even made holy and pious men quake with fear and tremble before His presence. Moses trembled at Sinai, Job abhorred himself before the Lord, Isaiah counted himself an unclean man, and John fell face forward. Our God is a God who wills to exact vengeance on the unrepentant and this is evident from Deuteronomy 32:
“Vengeance is mine, and recompense, for the time when their foot shall slip; for the day of their calamity is at hand, and their doom comes swiftly.'...See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand. For I lift up my hand to heaven and swear, As I live forever, if I sharpen my flashing sword and my hand takes hold on judgment, I will take vengeance on my adversaries and will repay those who hate me. I will make my arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh— with the blood of the slain and the captives, from the long-haired heads of the enemy.' "Rejoice with him, O heavens; bow down to him, all gods, for he avenges the blood of his children and takes vengeance on his adversaries. He repays those who hate him and cleanses his people's land."” ‭‭(Deuteronomy‬ ‭32:35, 39-43). Men may hate this God but this is the God that I love. This is the God of the Bible. This is the God that sent His Son to die for sinners that they may not partake in His everlasting vengeance. And though men may hate this God this is the God of the Bible and the one in whom I love because He is the true God.

 

[Saint Steven]

3. Why must hell be eternal? Why not remedial? What is the purpose of hell? Is eternal punishment fitting for a just God who is Love? Or, does it make more sense that God reconciles all the good that God created, leaving behind the dross and all that was not his by the fire of his love? I don't think the scriptures are as clear on hell as some seem to think. I don't think the eternity of hell is as clear as some think.

A pointless eternal hell makes God worse than any sinner. It is the most sadistic thing imaginable. To be sentenced to burn forever with no hope of escape, and for no purpose whatsoever except revenge. Especially from a God who requires us to forgive our enemies. Those who have formulated these claims about God are in for a good salting. We will all be salted with fire.

 

[Alain Valdivia]

If your neighbor was torturing people in his basement, would you brag about his good character?

This is where you’re relying more on reason than on scripture. All that God does is good even though our finite minds can’t comprehend it. God is just to do as He pleases because all He does is out of love. Yes, even hell is out of love. How so? Because if God has love He must despise that which is against charity. Now sin is against charity, therefore, if there is immutability and consistency in God He must thereby of necessity punish that which is contrary to charity. God is just in all things. He loved Jacob and hated Esau (Romans 9:13), He told Moses He will have mercy on whom He chooses to have mercy (Romans 9:15) and that He hardens those whom He chooses to harden (Romans 9:18). How does Paul reply back to human reason against these charges? By saying this, “But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—” (Romans‬ ‭9:20-23‬). What else can we say to this but wonder at the wisdom, mystery and power of God? “Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!” (‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:33‬)

 

[Saint Steven]

God does not fail. For though He indeed desires the salvation of all men, yet it is through their own fault that they are damned.

That's the Evangelical pacifier. Blame the victim.

 

[Saint Steven]

All that God does is good even though our finite minds can’t comprehend it.

Yes, it is incomprehensible that a loving God would torture countless billions in a forever burning hell with no hope of escape. I can comprehend that.

 

[Alain Valdivia]

That's the Evangelical pacifier. Blame the victim.

Will you deny it’s the fault of the sinner that he is damned? We sin by virtue of our own will. This is why Spurgeon said that free will has lead a many to hell. Unless by divine grace God moves the will of the sinner towards Him the sinner will die in his sins not through defect of God’s mercy, but by their own selves. God predestines no one to be damned, only we do.

 

[Der Alte]

Yes. This is the real failure of Damnationism. It claims that God fails. (seems ironic)
I takes critical thinking to consider what we have been told all of our lives and finally recognize it for what it is. A claim that the long-term plan of God was for sin to win, that God would be defeated in the end, unable to rescue humankind from his own plan.
Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Rubbish! "that he may have mercy" Paul did NOT write "that he will have mercy." as he did in Romans 9:15, twice.

If your neighbor was torturing people in his basement, would you brag about his good character?

Rubbish! How many 1000s old, young, men, women, children, infants died gasping for air when God flooded the entire world? How many 1000s old, young, men, women, children, infants died being burned alive in Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plain? How many 100s old, young, men, women, children, infants died when God commanded the Israelites to go into Canaan and kill all the inhabitants?

 

[FineLinen]

Well, I’m Lutheran, so I don’t believe in an age of accountability. Here’s what we believe: Salvation, from beginning to end, is from God. But damnation, from beginning to end, is from man. This is a holy mystery that is apprehended through faith, which is given by the Holy Spirit, through the means of the Gospel.

Scriptures say that we are by nature children of wrath; brought forth in iniquity, conceived in sin and dead in sin. That is, we are sinners not because we sin, but rather, we sin because we’re sinners. Again, the Word of God says that no one is righteous before God - not even one. So, all are in need of God’s grace - a Saviour. What is born of the flesh must be born of the Spirit. This is true for all, regardless of age.

Now, it’s my belief that God’s grace may extend to the little ones who were not baptised, for we know that God is good and righteous, saying "Let the little children come to me", and while baptism is ordinarily the means of grace, that does not mean that God is bound by His own means. Quite simply, we can take comfort in that whatever God judges, it is good and right, and it’s not something we need to speculate on or worry about. Our concern should be to uphold the purity of God’s Law and Gospel, that is, the full council of God’s Word. And this means proclaiming the good news of the forgiveness of sins to the repentant, but warning to the unrepentant. That is, we must proclaim that there is salvation in Christ, but damnation for all who reject God's grace. When Christ says that the unbeliever will be condemned, it really means condemned, and we have to hold fast to the Word of Christ.

Dear Daniel: We are indeed not sinners by what we do, we are sinners by what we are. It is our essence. Little children are innocent, but in essence sinners. The 15K. little children who die today & every day worldwide under age 5, have not had the opportunity to demonstrate their fallen nature.

You stated that salvation consists of believing and being baptized in your earlier post. I dare say the vast majority of these wee ones cannot even spell the word baptized. Nor have these precious children ever known what it means to repent! They have not rejected God's grace. They have not been baptized, they die fallen sinners.

You, my friend, should realize where we are going in this line of thought. The Restitution of the all, declared by the prophets of the Most High God, encompass every child, every broken wreck of the good, bad & ugly. Every broken life with their 33,000 diseases, not to mention the broken minds of countless ones.

The whole of created life shall be delivered/set free from the tyranny of change & decay: ALL

 

[Der Alte]

Yes, it is incomprehensible that a loving God would torture countless billions in a forever burning hell with no hope of escape. I can comprehend that.

Fortunately we don't get to tell God what is incomprehensible to Him.

 

[Saint Steven]

We would indeed be in grand trouble were it not for the merits of the Redeemer.

Well, our redeemer said, "Everyone will be salted with fire." That includes me and you.

Mark 9:47-49
And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where
“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’
49 Everyone will be salted with fire.

 

[charsan]

Universalism is what happens when one abandons God's historic church and follows themselves and courts Satan

 

[FineLinen]

Will you deny it’s the fault of the sinner that he is damned? We sin by virtue of our own will.

Dear Alain: Put on your specs.

"For the creation was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him who has subjected the same in hope."

 

[Saint Steven]

Will you deny it’s the fault of the sinner that he is damned? We sin by virtue of our own will. This is why Spurgeon said that free will has lead a many to hell. Unless by divine grace God moves the will of the sinner towards Him the sinner will die in his sins not through defect of God’s mercy, but by their own selves. God predestines no one to be damned, only we do.

Every knee will bow and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord.
Even those "under the earth". (in the realm of the dead)

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

 

[FineLinen]

Universalism is what happens when one abandons God's historic church and follows themselves and courts Satan

 

[charsan]

That's fine, universalist will not get in heaven because universalism is demonic