Anti-universalism hostility

[Lazarus Short]

Surely, God embodies the standard that God demands. Or better, the standard holds because it represents who God is.

Yes, YES, YES! God keeps His Own Law, because that Law is a transcript of His Character. That being so, when He says "Thou shalt not kill," He adheres to its principles Himself. Thus, He cannot and will not, toss anyone into a place of eternal, conscious torment (Hell). Now if anyone brings up the conquest of the Promised Land, and the many people slaughtered, God did not really murder them, because He knew beforehand that He would resurrect them later. He even states that He will restore the fortunes of Sodom.

 

[Der Alte]

And what if the sense in which 'aionion' is used there is to denote 'otherworldly', 'afterlife' or 'the age to come', or used in a qualitative spiritual sense? There are various instances in the NT of this interesting Greek word being translated in these ways. Saint F.L. I think has several filing cabinets full of scholarship on the term.

So we can translate "aionios" any old way we want to because "what if the sense in which 'aionion' is used there is to denote 'otherworldly', 'afterlife etc."
There is a maxim for translation "If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to seek any other sense."

And what if 'kolasis' is used to mean 'corrective punishment'? It is distinguished from that other Greek word for retributive punishment 'timoria', which Clement of Alexandria remarked was never found in the NT. And corrective punishment has an object, a telos, does it not? To chastise, discipline, correct, set right, make righteous.

Another "what if" suggesting we can translate "kolasis" any old way we want to because there is another Greek word which was not used. Logical fallacy argument from silence
The same word [κόλασις/kolasis] occurs in 1 Jn 4:18.

1 John 4:18
(18) There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment [κόλασις/kolasis]. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.​

There is no correction here. He that fears [κόλασις/kolasis] is NOT made perfect.

So we have a possible (albeit unwieldy) construction - corrective punishment in the next world v life in the next world.

More speculation suggesting we translate words any old way we want to.

Regardless, Jesus (a) often employs hyperbole and prophetic rhetoric to get the message across to dimwits and (b) is warning that ppl are indeed in danger of becoming so pitiless that 'forever' won't be enough time to fix them.

Because Jesus does use hyperbole and "prophetic rhetoric" we can translate "aionios" and "kolasis" any old way we want to.
Nothing Jesus said can by any stretch be translated "forever' won't be enough time to fix them."

Consider Jesus' treatment of Gehenna fire as being good salting for everyone (Mk 9:47-49), severe discipline for the vicious (Mt 5:22) and where God refrains from destroying ppl out of an abundance of love (Mt 10:28-31).

Jesus did not say everyone would be salted by "Gehenna fire!"
Let's see where "God refrains from destroying ppl out of an abundance of love (Mt 10:28-31)." In this passage Jesus is talking to His disciples before sending them out.

Matthew 10:28-33
(28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
(29) Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
(30) But the very hairs of your [disciples] head are all numbered.
(31) Fear ye [disciples] not therefore, ye [disciples] are of more value than many sparrows.
(32) Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
(33) But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. ​

Jesus said those who confess Him, He will confess them to the Father but those who do not confess Him, He will deny before the Father.
What Jesus does NOT say is those who deny Him will be saved anyway by and by.

So do you believe there are nuts too tough for God to crack?

Romans 1:18
(18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Romans 1:26
(26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Romans. 1:32
(32) Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.​

Paul does not say those that God gave up will be saved anyway by and by.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men
(10) nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
(19) The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
(20) idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
(21) and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5
(5) For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 3:17
(17) If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy that person; for God's temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.​

 

[FineLinen]

And what if the sense in which 'aionion' is used there is to denote 'otherworldly', 'afterlife' or 'the age to come', or used in a qualitative spiritual sense? There are various instances in the NT of this interesting Greek word being translated in these ways. Saint F.L. I think has several filing cabinets full of scholarship on the term.

And what if 'kolasis' is used to mean 'corrective punishment'? It is distinguished from that other Greek word for retributive punishment 'timoria', which Clement of Alexandria remarked was never found in the NT. And corrective punishment has an object, a telos, does it not? To chastise, discipline, correct, set right, make righteous.

So we have a possible (albeit unwieldy) construction - corrective punishment in the next world v life in the next world.

Regardless, Jesus (a) often employs hyperbole and prophetic rhetoric to get the message across to dimwits and (b) is warning that ppl are indeed in danger of becoming so pitiless that 'forever' won't be enough time to fix them.

Consider Jesus' treatment of Gehenna fire as being good salting for everyone (Mk 9:47-49), severe discipline for the vicious (Mt 5:22) and where God refrains from destroying ppl out of an abundance of love (Mt 10:28-31).

So do you believe there are nuts too tough for God to crack?

Dear Shrewd: I regret to inform you, my brother, our Lord has nuts that are impossible to crack.

Alternate plan b minus =

With God some/tis things shall be possible?

 

[Saint Steven]

Surely, God embodies the standard that God demands. Or better, the standard holds because it represents who God is.

I thought of another angle to consider on all this.
As you know Gehenna (the garbage dump) is used as a metaphor for hell.

But it occurred to me today that we go to the dump to get rid of unwanted refuse.
A person doesn't BECOME garbage because they went to the dump.
They unload their trash and then leave. The bigger the load, the longer it takes.
But you don't stay there any longer than needed. It's an unpleasant place.
The parallel to Restorationism is pretty obvious.

 

[Saint Steven]

Yeah, I understand that to be a 1st cent. Judean way of saying, "without limit."

I wonder about that.
Jesus' comment was in response to Peter asking if we should forgive up to 7 times.

FineLinen said: ↑
Dear Hermit: 70X7 at which time you run out of forgiveness credits?

 

[public hermit]

I wonder about that.
Jesus' comment was in response to Peter asking if we should forgive up to 7 times.

FineLinen said: ↑
Dear Hermit: 70X7 at which time you run out of forgiveness credits?

Do you think he just meant 490 times? Well, it's good to know where the limit is.

 

[Saint Steven]

God predestines no one to be damned. That is, He does not willingly decree their damnation. God does, however, decree the salvation of His elect. It’s more or less the lingo of “God is the one that saves, we’re the one that damns.” This is the teaching of Aquinas whom you know by now I love to quote and talk about. Augustine says something similar although he leans a bit more towards God predestining the damnation of the wicked. It’s a mystery. How can we be free and yet have God elect? We don’t know and we can’t know. St. Bellarmine says something similar in why Hod gives saving grace to some and not to others: “Still it may be urged, why did not God give to both of them that efficacious grace which would overcome the hardest heart? The reason why He has not done so is one of those secrets which we ought to admire but not pry into, since we ought to rest satisfied with the thought that there cannot be injustice with God, as the Apostle says, for, as St. Augustine expresses it, the judgments of God may be secret, but cannot be unjust.” And as St. Augustine said, “He who falls, falls by his own will; and he who stands, stands by God’s will.”

More contradictions. And the previous ones are in no wise cleared up.

You are saying that the damnation of the wicked is their own fault, but we can trust God to be just. (which means the damned will burn forever with no hope of escape) No human would be allowed to be so cruel. How can that be just? The wicked for the most part have no choice in the matter.

 

[Saint Steven]

Do you think he just meant 490 times? Well, it's good to know where the limit is.

I think the point was the exponential factor in the reply.
It seemed to Peter that forgiving up to 7 times was going way beyond what was needed or required.
Jesus' response of 70 times 7 is a point made by magnitude. Not intended as a limit.
It doesn't seem that those who heard the discussion made note of when they could stop forgiving. The whole idea was probably staggering to them.

Saint Steven said: ↑
I wonder about that.
Jesus' comment was in response to Peter asking if we should forgive up to 7 times.

FineLinen said: ↑
Dear Hermit: 70X7 at which time you run out of forgiveness credits?

 

[charsan]

I Believe

I believe in “the restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouths of the prophets since the world began.” -Acts 3:21-

I believe that the “good tidings of great joy will be to all people.” -Luke 2:10

I believe that believers in Christ Jesus are “born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God.” -John 1:13-

I believe

I believe that God appointed Jesus Christ “heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.” -Hebr. 1:2-

I believe that “no man can come to Christ unless the Father who sent Him draws him.” -John 6:44

I believe “God gave Jesus authority over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as God gave him.” -John 17:2-

I believe

I believe the Father “has given all things into Jesus’ hands.” -John 13:3-

I believe that Jesus Christ “was the true light which gives light to every man who come into the world.” -John 1:9

I believe that “just as the result of one trespass was condemnation to all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification for all men.” -Romans 5:18

I believe one mans sin “brought condemnation for all mankind.” -Romans 5: 19-

I believe one mans righteousness brings “right relationship with God, and new life for everyone.” -Romans 5:19-

I believe one mans sin made the whole of mankind sinners. I also believe the righteousness of one Man makes the whole of mankind righteous.

I Believe

I believe that Jesus is “able to subdue all things to himself.” -Phil. 3:21-

I believe that Jesus came “that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are in earth in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His own will.” -Eph. 1:10,11-

I believe “the Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” -2 Peter 3:9-

I Believe

I believe “God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors as though God was making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: be reconciled to God.” -2 Cor. 5:19, 20-

I believe that “all nations shall be blessed.” -Gal. 3:8-

I believe that “the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” -John 6:33-

I believe that Jesus commanded us to be like himself: “Love your enemies, bless those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.” -Matt. 5:44,45

I believe Jesus when he said: “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw [Greek=draw, drag, impel] all mankind unto myself.”

I believe that “creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but by reason of Him who subjected it in hope, because creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.” -Romans 8:20,21-

You lack a lot in there because you rely on yourself, to be a Christian here you must confess the creed not picking and choosing your ideas into the Bible

 

[charsan]

Friend, the gospel according the angel is glad tidings of great joy for all mankind. Now you can criticise the doctrine and we who propound it, but downvoting the HS is unforgivable.

It's not down voting the HS, first an angel said this not the HS, second it never said every man will be saved. Many will go to Hell which includes universalist

 

[Saint Steven]

You lack a lot in there because you rely on yourself, to be a Christian here you must confess the creed not picking and choosing your ideas into the Bible

How very Christian of you. No wonder everyone hates us.

 

[charsan]

On what does your salvation rest?

Christ not pagan satanic universal-ism

 

[FineLinen]

You lack a lot in there because you rely on yourself, to be a Christian here you must confess the creed not picking and choosing your ideas into the Bible

Confess the creed, confess the creed, repeat.

Dear Abba: You must be wrong?

Confess the Lord Jesus Christ & you shall be saved, you & your household.

 

[charsan]

Confess the creed, confess the creed, repeat.

Dear Abba: You must be wrong?

Confess the Lord Jesus Christ & you shall be saved, you & your household.

In CT Forums you must profess the Nicene creed to be even considered a Christian

 

[FineLinen]

In CT Forums you must profess the Nicene creed to be even considered a Christian

Dear Charsan: Please tell us from the Scriptures the qualificating factors for being a Christian IN/EN the Lord Jesus Christ.

I Believe

I believe “If anyone’s work which he has built endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved yet so as through fire.” -1 Cor. 3:14,15-

I believe “of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever.” -Romans 11:36

I believe “all Israel shall be saved.” -Romans 11:26-

I Believe

I believe “Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.” -2 Cor. 5:14-

I believe that “the head of every man is Christ, the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.” -1 Cor. 11:3-

I believe that “all nations shall come and worship You, for Your judgements have been made manifested.” -Rev. 15:4

I believe that “when God’s judgements are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.” -Isa. 26:9-

I believe that “mercy shall triumph over judgement.” -James 2:13-

I believe that “where sin abounded, grace abounded much more.” -Romans 5:20-

I Believe

I believe that “God is love.” -1 John 4:8-

I believe that “love never fails.” -1 Cor. 13:8-

I believe that God never fails.

I believe “herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loves us, and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.” -1 John 4:10-

I believe “God is love, and all who live in love live in God, and God lives in them.” -1 John 4:16-

I believe Jesus Christ "is the propitiation for our sins and not for our sins only but the sins of the whole world. -1 John 2:2-

 

[Saint Steven]

In CT Forums you must profess the Nicene creed to be even considered a Christian

Where's the value in that?

 

[charsan]

Dear Charsan: Please tell us from the Scriptures the qualificating factors for being a Christian IN/EN the Lord Jesus Christ.

You and any yahoo as you have showed can make Scripture say heretical and pagan things if you so desire. Believing is just the start than you must have right orthodoxy if one has universalism as a belief that places one outside of orthodoxy and outside of Christ into utter darkness.

I am gone dealing with the paganism here this should not be allowed at a Christian site

 

[Saint Steven]

---SE---

Does this apply?

Luke 14:11
For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.” ​

 

[FineLinen]

You and any yahoo as you have showed can make Scripture say heretical and pagan things if you so desire. Believing is just the start than you must have right orthodoxy if one has universalism as a belief that places one outside of orthodoxy and outside of Christ into utter darkness.

I am gone dealing with the paganism here this should not be allowed at a Christian site

 

[Lazarus Short]

Christ not pagan satanic universal-ism

Every "pagan satanic" religion I know of involves gods who cannot be depended on to be dependable. So, they must placated...even to the point of human sacrifice. Quite the opposite of universalism.

The religion of the Bible, on the other hand, points us to a God Who is exceedingly dependable, Who loves us, and at one point was shocked and offended by His Own people passing their own children through the fire to one of those pagan/satanic gods. He even stated that such a thing had never entered His Mind or His Heart. Now, since in Him there is no shadow of turning, how do you say that this very God will someday toss a big chunk of humanity into fire forever? The idea stinks of blasphemy.