Anti-universalism hostility

[FineLinen]

That's fine, universalist will not get in heaven because universalism is demonic

 

[Der Alte]

Well, our redeemer said, "Everyone will be salted with fire." That includes me and you.
Mark 9:47-49
And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where
“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’
49 Everyone will be salted with fire.

Wrong! "Pas" in vs. 49 does not refer to all mankind. It refers to the subject of vss. 47, 48 "all" who are thrown into hell. The righteous are not thrown into hell. Not one single verse clearly says the righteous are thrown into hell or pass through any fire.

 

[charsan]

So all you can do is that? Because you know that the doctrine you peddle is so bad it only started recently and you are afraid of truth. May God forgive you for the evil you are trying to put forward

 

[FineLinen]

you know that the doctrine you peddle is so bad it only started recently and you are afraid of truth.

 

[FineLinen]

I Believe

I believe in “the restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouths of the prophets since the world began.” -Acts 3:21-

I believe that the “good tidings of great joy will be to all people.” -Luke 2:10

I believe that believers in Christ Jesus are “born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God.” -John 1:13-

I believe

I believe that God appointed Jesus Christ “heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.” -Hebr. 1:2-

I believe that “no man can come to Christ unless the Father who sent Him draws him.” -John 6:44

I believe “God gave Jesus authority over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as God gave him.” -John 17:2-

I believe

I believe the Father “has given all things into Jesus’ hands.” -John 13:3-

I believe that Jesus Christ “was the true light which gives light to every man who come into the world.” -John 1:9

I believe that “just as the result of one trespass was condemnation to all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification for all men.” -Romans 5:18

I believe one mans sin “brought condemnation for all mankind.” -Romans 5: 19-

I believe one mans righteousness brings “right relationship with God, and new life for everyone.” -Romans 5:19-

I believe one mans sin made the whole of mankind sinners. I also believe the righteousness of one Man makes the whole of mankind righteous.

I Believe

I believe that Jesus is “able to subdue all things to himself.” -Phil. 3:21-

I believe that Jesus came “that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are in earth in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His own will.” -Eph. 1:10,11-

I believe “the Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” -2 Peter 3:9-

I Believe

I believe “God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors as though God was making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: be reconciled to God.” -2 Cor. 5:19, 20-

I believe that “all nations shall be blessed.” -Gal. 3:8-

I believe that “the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” -John 6:33-

I believe that Jesus commanded us to be like himself: “Love your enemies, bless those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.” -Matt. 5:44,45

I believe Jesus when he said: “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw [Greek=draw, drag, impel] all mankind unto myself.”

I believe that “creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but by reason of Him who subjected it in hope, because creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.” -Romans 8:20,21-

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Probably the best verse to refute the idea that God, in the end, will unite all of the damned to Himself and bring them to paradise to be fully consecrated to His love is Matthew 25:46 which says, “And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.” Thomas Aquinas, when speaking of the eternal out of hell says this: “It is written (Mt. 25:46) of the elect conjointly with the damned: "These shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting." But it is inadmissible that the life of the just will ever have an end. Therefore it is inadmissible that the punishment of the damned will ever come to an end.” In other words, if Jesus correlates between the eternity of the blessed in heaven and the eternity of the damned in hell then grammatically it means that both will last for eternity. How so? Because when Christ compares them both as being equal it’s logical to conclude that both sides will suffer the same effect. If the just shall be in heaven for eternity then the damned must also be in hell for eternity since the grammar requires it to be so.
‭

And what if the sense in which 'aionion' is used there is to denote 'otherworldly', 'afterlife' or 'the age to come', or used in a qualitative spiritual sense? There are various instances in the NT of this interesting Greek word being translated in these ways. Saint F.L. I think has several filing cabinets full of scholarship on the term.

And what if 'kolasis' is used to mean 'corrective punishment'? It is distinguished from that other Greek word for retributive punishment 'timoria', which Clement of Alexandria remarked was never found in the NT. And corrective punishment has an object, a telos, does it not? To chastise, discipline, correct, set right, make righteous.

So we have a possible (albeit unwieldy) construction - corrective punishment in the next world v life in the next world.

Regardless, Jesus (a) often employs hyperbole and prophetic rhetoric to get the message across to dimwits and (b) is warning that ppl are indeed in danger of becoming so pitiless that 'forever' won't be enough time to fix them.

Consider Jesus' treatment of Gehenna fire as being good salting for everyone (Mk 9:47-49), severe discipline for the vicious (Mt 5:22) and where God refrains from destroying ppl out of an abundance of love (Mt 10:28-31).

So do you believe there are nuts too tough for God to crack?

 

[Charlie24]

Probably the best verse to refute the idea that God, in the end, will unite all of the damned to Himself and bring them to paradise to be fully consecrated to His love is Matthew 25:46 which says, “And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.” Thomas Aquinas, when speaking of the eternal out of hell says this: “It is written (Mt. 25:46) of the elect conjointly with the damned: "These shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting." But it is inadmissible that the life of the just will ever have an end. Therefore it is inadmissible that the punishment of the damned will ever come to an end.” In other words, if Jesus correlates between the eternity of the blessed in heaven and the eternity of the damned in hell then grammatically it means that both will last for eternity. How so? Because when Christ compares them both as being equal it’s logical to conclude that both sides will suffer the same effect. If the just shall be in heaven for eternity then the damned must also be in hell for eternity since the grammar requires it to be so.
‭

What you have pointed out is a truth that the true believer cannot get past.

Those who choose to ignore it have rejected the truth for a lie of philosophy.

It raises the question, do these people understand the mercy and Grace of God?

The answer is a definite NO! They have filled their heads with ancient religious philosophy rather than the Word of God.

They continuously take scripture out of context to support their heresy and don't even care that they are doing so.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

What you have pointed out is a truth that the true believer cannot get past.

Those who choose to ignore it have rejected the truth for a lie of philosophy.

It raises the question, do these people understand the mercy and Grace of God?

The answer is a definite NO! They have filled their heads with ancient religious philosophy rather than the Word of God.

They continuously take scripture out of context to support their heresy and don't even care that they are doing so.

Evidently Charlie will have some part in it after all.

For as all died in Adam, all are made alive in Christ.

It's a LIFE SENTENCE for all, death has been swallowed up in victory. All things shall be made anew and there will be NO MORE CURSE. That's God's guarantee, sealed in holy blood at Calvary.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

That's fine, universalist will not get in heaven because universalism is demonic

Friend, the gospel according the angel is glad tidings of great joy for all mankind. Now you can criticise the doctrine and we who propound it, but downvoting the HS is unforgivable.

 

[Saint Steven]

Will you deny it’s the fault of the sinner that he is damned? We sin by virtue of our own will. This is why Spurgeon said that free will has lead a many to hell. Unless by divine grace God moves the will of the sinner towards Him the sinner will die in his sins not through defect of God’s mercy, but by their own selves. God predestines no one to be damned, only we do.

Your statement seems contradictory. Can you clarify it?

First you say, "Unless by divine grace God moves the will of the sinner towards Him the sinner will die in his sins..."
Then you say, "God predestines no one to be damned..."

If salvation is dependent on God moving "the will of the sinner towards Him", then everyone else is predestined to "damnation". It ultimately depends on the will of God, not the will of humankind. The "damned" would then consist of everyone God chose not to move toward himself and those he failed to move far enough to be "saved".

Romans 5:10
For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

 

[Saint Steven]

That's fine, universalist will not get in heaven because universalism is demonic

On what does your salvation rest?

 

[FineLinen]

And what if the sense in which 'aionion' is used there is to denote 'otherworldly', 'afterlife' or 'the age to come', or used in a qualitative spiritual sense? There are various instances in the NT of this interesting Greek word being translated in these ways. Saint F.L. I think has several filing cabinets full of scholarship on the term.

And what if 'kolasis' is used to mean 'corrective punishment'? It is distinguished from that other Greek word for retributive punishment 'timoria', which Clement of Alexandria remarked was never found in the NT. And corrective punishment has an object, a telos, does it not? To chastise, discipline, correct, set right, make righteous.

So we have a possible (albeit unwieldy) construction - corrective punishment in the next world v life in the next world.

Regardless, Jesus (a) often employs hyperbole and prophetic rhetoric to get the message across to dimwits and (b) is warning that ppl are indeed in danger of becoming so pitiless that 'forever' won't be enough time to fix them.

Consider Jesus' treatment of Gehenna fire as being good salting for everyone (Mk 9:47-49), severe discipline for the vicious (Mt 5:22) and where God refrains from destroying ppl out of an abundance of love (Mt 10:28-31).

So do you believe there are nuts too tough for God to crack?

Dear Abba, dearest Daddy: How wonderful you are! Your love reaches down to our lostness to bring us Home to You.

“Do you believe that the God of Jesus loves you beyond worthiness and unworthiness, beyond fidelity and infidelity—that he loves you in the morning sun and in the evening rain—that he loves you when your intellect denies it, your emotions refuse it, your whole being rejects it. Do you believe that God loves without condition or reservation and loves you this moment as you are and not as you should be.” -Brennan Manning-

Dear Shrewd: Much thanks for your "saint" graduation, (LOL),

HOWEVER

"The purpose of the cross is to do away with you, blessed riddance." A.W. Tozer

 

[Saint Steven]

So all you can do is that? Because you know that the doctrine you peddle is so bad it only started recently and you are afraid of truth. May God forgive you for the evil you are trying to put forward

That's a very uninformed view.
What we now call Universalism was the dominant belief about the final judgment in the early Eastern Church. (which was largely rejected by the early western/Latin Church)

What do you claim that Origen was criticized for?

 

[Saint Steven]

It raises the question, do these people understand the mercy and Grace of God?

That means a lot coming from those who believe God would burn his own children. What sort of father would do that?

 

[Charlie24]

That means a lot coming from those who believe God would burn his own children. What sort of father would do that?

More proof that you don't understand the consequences of sin, which means you cannot understand the Mercy and Grace of God.

 

[Saint Steven]

Dear Shrewd: Much thanks for your "saint" graduation, (LOL),

Aren't we ALL saints?

Romans 16:15
Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.

2 Corinthians 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

2 Corinthians 13:13
All the saints salute you.

Ephesians 1:15
Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

Philippians 1:1
Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

Philippians 4:22
All the saints salute you, chiefly they that are of Caesar's household.

Colossians 1:4
Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,

Hebrews 13:24
Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.

 

[Saint Steven]

More proof that you don't understand the consequences of sin, which means you cannot understand the Mercy and Grace of God.

Jesus paid the consequences of sin on the cross. The consequence of sin is death. He saved us from death.

Romans 5:10
For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

 

[FineLinen]

More proof that you don't understand the consequences of sin, which means you cannot understand the Mercy and Grace of God.

Charles: The consequence of sin is lostness from the Source of Life, Abba our dearest Daddy.

His Reconciliation removes the vast canyon separating us from Him who to know is life aionios.

“Do you believe that the God of Jesus loves you beyond worthiness and unworthiness, beyond fidelity and infidelity—that he loves you in the morning sun and in the evening rain—that he loves you when your intellect denies it, your emotions refuse it, your whole being rejects it. Do you believe that God loves without condition or reservation and loves you this moment as you are and not as you should be.” -Brennan Manning-

 

[public hermit]

Especially from a God who requires us to forgive our enemies.

That is a significant point that I think is often overlooked. We are to be merciful as our Father is merciful. We are to forgive without limit, per Christ. It seems reasonable that if we are to be like our Father, our Father is merciful without limit. I don't know if that eliminates the need for hell, if hell is remedial. One must be prepared for life in the presence of eternal Mercy. One must be "salted" as you put it.

 

[FineLinen]

That means a lot coming from those who believe God would burn his own children. What sort of father would do that?

Dear Saint: It boggles my entire tri-part being how anyone can
think for a moment the God of Glory, Abba, dearest Daddy, does anything not reflecting His great love!